Grand Am Crank Pulley

[Bumpin2000GAGT]

I was wondering if anyone else had the pulley set from SA? I was about to put these on and noticed that both the alternator and water pump pulleys are bigger from SA. Is this correct? Are both supposed to be bigger? Also, I was wondering if anyone knew if I could put these on and the fastforwardperformance crank pulley? Thanks a lot everyone. :cheers:

[Greed4Speed]

Sounds like thay are for a smaller crank pulley.

[Bumpin2000GAGT]

oh ok, I thought that pulleys were supposed to be smaller for more performance and not bigger.

[jsos431]

I bought those a while back but got rid of them. the water pump should be the same size just lighter than the stock and the alternator should be smaller. underdive pulleys are smaller and lighter than the stock ones. i hope that helps. i now have the crank pulley from fastfwdperformance.com and the new crank pulley is smaller and lighter also.

[Bumpin2000GAGT]

Thanks a lot for your info. That helped a lot. I plan on getting rid of these and ordering the fastforwardperformance pulley.

[nfsga]

Not necessarily. If the waterpump and alternator pulleys are bigger, but around the same weight(or less) then the waterpump and alt are being turned less times per second, creating less drag.

[steve_m]

Originally posted by Bumpin2000GAGT
I was wondering if anyone else had the pulley set from SA? I was about to put these on and noticed that both the alternator and water pump pulleys are bigger from SA. Is this correct? Are both supposed to be bigger? Also, I was wondering if anyone knew if I could put these on and the fastforwardperformance crank pulley? Thanks a lot everyone. :cheers:


The SA pullies are smaller and lighter. They don't make a heck of a lot of difference (probably 5-7HP). The FFWD Performance pully is different and is also worth it. I am running both the SA and FFWD pullies.

[steve_m]

Originally posted by Bumpin2000GAGT
Thanks a lot for your info. That helped a lot. I plan on getting rid of these and ordering the fastforwardperformance pulley.

Why would you get rid of them? Run both. They are all different pullies.

[fschambe]

Nobody's had problems with the alternator and water pump going slower? I know the Honda Accords had a replacement set of Pulley's made by AEM that killed alternators, and then Unorthodox Racing had a full UltraSS set that made everything better.

Does this engine have any balancing on the brank pulley to watch out for during a change?

[jsos431]

the grand am is internally balanced so there is no need for a dampener or anything. the crank pulley is awesome, i love it, i totally felt a difference.

[steve_m]

Originally posted by fschambe
Nobody's had problems with the alternator and water pump going slower? I know the Honda Accords had a replacement set of Pulley's made by AEM that killed alternators, and then Unorthodox Racing had a full UltraSS set that made everything better.

Does this engine have any balancing on the brank pulley to watch out for during a change?

I've had the SA pullies on my car for about a year now and have not had any problems other than the lights are a little dim -- higher cranking battery fixed that problem though.

I know of a few people with other cars that have done pullies and have also had no problems.

[Jeremy]

FastSteve has them on his GA. didn't his alt. go last year at GAP?

[fschambe]

Originally posted by steve_m
I've had the SA pullies on my car for about a year now and have not had any problems other than the lights are a little dim -- higher cranking battery fixed that problem though.

I know of a few people with other cars that have done pullies and have also had no problems.

Ok, that confirms that the alternator isn't spinning fast enough at idle. Upgrading the battery is a quasi-solution to a poorly designed pulley setup, which, if you wanted to get a new alternator from warranty they would clearly, and in writing deny your claim because of aftermarket pulley. This also causes concern for cooling, if you don't have enough juice the fans arent going ot run fast enough and the coolant isn't going to circulate as fast and would cause greater potential for overheating.

Are there any manufacturer's of smaller alternator pulley's to compensate?

Did you change the serp. belt also? Any way other than unbolting the motor mount to replace the belt?

[jsos431]

sorry, this meant to be a reply in the underdrive pulley question

[aleroboy]

I'd just go with the crank pulley.
tha talt and WP pullies are a waste to me.
the crnak will do lots more.

[X-ception]

For those of you who got their crank pulley installed, did you put it on yourself or did you take the car somewhere? IF you took it somewhere, where did you go? I took my car to one dealer and the gave some funny look, then started asking me dumb questions like who made it. Oh yeah, they wanted to charge me $250 b/c it would take them over 4 hours to do it. Thats when I laughed and left. heh :D

[steve_m]

Originally posted by fschambe
Ok, that confirms that the alternator isn't spinning fast enough at idle. Upgrading the battery is a quasi-solution to a poorly designed pulley setup, which, if you wanted to get a new alternator from warranty they would clearly, and in writing deny your claim because of aftermarket pulley. This also causes concern for cooling, if you don't have enough juice the fans arent going ot run fast enough and the coolant isn't going to circulate as fast and would cause greater potential for overheating.

Are there any manufacturer's of smaller alternator pulley's to compensate?

Did you change the serp. belt also? Any way other than unbolting the motor mount to replace the belt?

If you are worried about warranty you shouldn't be modding your car. I voided my warranty a long time ago. Yes, the alternator is not spinning as fast as it should be -- that it the entire point of the UD pully. I haven't had any heating problems but I do have a colder thermostat installed.

Yes, the belt needed changing to as shorter one as well.

[steve_m]

Originally posted by X-ception
For those of you who got their crank pulley installed, did you put it on yourself or did you take the car somewhere? IF you took it somewhere, where did you go? I took my car to one dealer and the gave some funny look, then started asking me dumb questions like who made it. Oh yeah, they wanted to charge me $250 b/c it would take them over 4 hours to do it. Thats when I laughed and left. heh :D

I took it to the performance shop that does all my work.

[fschambe]

Originally posted by steve_m
Yes, the alternator is not spinning as fast as it should be -- that it the entire point of the UD pully. I haven't had any heating problems but I do have a colder thermostat installed.

I think we're going about it with the wrong mentality... here's form the FAQ for unorthodox racing with dyno proven results...

2) "How do Unorthodox Racing pulleys give me more power?"
Weight loss is the most critical factor in HP production, each lb. of mass taken off the crank/eccentric shaft is worth approximately 2.7 HP and the figure increases with forced induction, nitrous, VTEC and increased RPM's. Only 15-20% of the gains seen from our pulleys comes from the underdriving. We achieve the maximum gain for each application/model by the singular use or combination of reduced diameter ("underdriving") and weight loss versus the OEM crank pulley/s. This principle allows us to maximize the HP gain without causing any adverse effects in the general function of the vehicle.

The diameter of each of our crank pulleys is reduced specifically (from 20-30%) to the vehicles accessory needs. In other words we maintain all accessory minimums: air conditioning efficiency, power steering feel, and voltage (minimum allowable voltage 12v) even at idle with everything electrical on in the car. There are no adverse effects from the use of our pulleys whether Ultra S, Ultra R, or Ultra SS pulley sets are used. Bolt them on and forget about them, then just follow your vehicles normal maintenance schedule.

As for the colder t-stat, gm didn't pick 200* as a crapshoot, and unless the ECU knows to expect that temperature as normal, it's gonna be in openloop trying to warm up the engine to operating temperature, dumping all sorts of EGR and giving you bad performance and bad mileage.

[aleroboy]

Originally posted by fschambe




As for the colder t-stat, gm didn't pick 200* as a crapshoot, and unless the ECU knows to expect that temperature as normal, it's gonna be in openloop trying to warm up the engine to operating temperature, dumping all sorts of EGR and giving you bad performance and bad mileage.

do you have proof of this?
my car has a 180 stat with no tunning
doesn't dump butt loads of egr, doesnt stay in open loop, and runs like it should.

My car runs at about 15-185 degrees when moving and under normal acceleration.
at lights and under full throttle it heats up pretty good.
the fan switch helps at lights but not much I can do without a larger radiator and better coolant than dexcrap for the top end and under full throttle conditions.

[fschambe]

Originally posted by aleroboy
do you have proof of this?
my car has a 180 stat with no tunning
doesn't dump butt loads of egr, doesnt stay in open loop, and runs like it should.

My car runs at about 15-185 degrees when moving and under normal acceleration.
at lights and under full throttle it heats up pretty good.
the fan switch helps at lights but not much I can do without a larger radiator and better coolant than dexcrap for the top end and under full throttle conditions.

Have you tried wetter water? It's by redline I think, neon red goopy stuff in a bottle, pepboys has it... You get any probs with the dexcrap yet? I had a 96 Olds Bravada and the crap turned into like gelly it was disgusting, lined the top of the radiator, took 3 flushes with reg green powerade flavored fluid before it was gone and then there was scaley rust coming out also. I think someone used a sealant thinking the drips from the waterpump was just a leak... (Gee, why's my truck run hot, gee why does the waterpump leak) it's called a weep hole and it spits when the pump is crap.

DEXCOOL = death

[aleroboy]

water wetter is int eh system
did nothing
nee dot switch over to traditional coolant
dexcrap is truning brown and getting a slimey build up.
I plan on going with evans coolant eventually as well as a larger radiator.
no clue when this will be done.
might have my whole motor built by that time.

[steve_m]

Originally posted by aleroboy
do you have proof of this?
my car has a 180 stat with no tunning
doesn't dump butt loads of egr, doesnt stay in open loop, and runs like it should.

My car runs at about 15-185 degrees when moving and under normal acceleration.
at lights and under full throttle it heats up pretty good.
the fan switch helps at lights but not much I can do without a larger radiator and better coolant than dexcrap for the top end and under full throttle conditions.

Ditto for me. In fact, I am quite impressed with the stock computer in the Alero -- it has taken to all of my mods including the headwork nicely, although I do expect great things from the DHP chip once its out.

As for the SA underdrive pullies not being worth it (I think Aleroboy said that...) I would disagree. The SA pullies were my second mod after the Borla and I noticed a difference.

[aleroboy]

Well as far as cash goes to hp gained I'd get the FFP pulley.
I would use both because of charging and cooling problems that could arrise.

[phantom505]

My FFP gets installed tomorrow. Will post the results now that they use the 3 cap screws to hold the sensor ring in place.

[steve_m]

Originally posted by phantom505
My FFP gets installed tomorrow. Will post the results now that they use the 3 cap screws to hold the sensor ring in place.


heh, yeah I had my shop guys fix that for me they noticed the problem during the install. No dyno for me yet though...

[Bumpin2000GAGT]

alright, since the sa pulleys i got are bigger, does that mean that sa sent me the wrong ones? :(

[aleroboy]

Originally posted by Bumpin2000GAGT
alright, since the sa pulleys i got are bigger, does that mean that sa sent me the wrong ones? :(

no
bigger pullies on the alt and wp will make them turn slower
(underdriving) those components.

[Bumpin2000GAGT]

thanks a lot for the info alero, i'll be putting these on very shortly once the fastforwardperformance one gets here :thumbs:

[phantom505]

It's installed and its awesome. I can tell a defineate push you back in your chair a bit further effect. Not as awesome as the headers or the CAI, but probably pretty close to the Borla.

[XtreemSix]

*whew* after reading all that....i think i came to the point that....the FFD crank pully would be a good thing? and not the SA pullies for the water and alt....am i right?

[phantom505]

Seeing as I'm using the FFP and I haven't had any problems, and is a lot less work, I recommend it. I had someone install it for me and the entire take home price was $200. Not too shabby for some decent gains.

Plus they actually provide dynos (3100), who knows what gains you would expect from the other set. I can imagine about the same, but this is more of a sure thing.

[steve_m]

Originally posted by phantom505
Seeing as I'm using the FFP and I haven't had any problems, and is a lot less work, I recommend it. I had someone install it for me and the entire take home price was $200. Not too shabby for some decent gains.

Plus they actually provide dynos (3100), who knows what gains you would expect from the other set. I can imagine about the same, but this is more of a sure thing.

I am running both and have experianced gains with both. But to each their own. I do agree that there COULD be problems with the SA ones but I, in the year + that I have been running them have not experianced such problems.

The FFWD one rocks though :thumbs:

[fschambe]

the guys at ffwdperf did a VERY NICE JOB for skeptics! http://fastfwdperformance.com/udinfo.htm thank you guys, I am sold!

[XtreemSix]

sweet!! that crank pully is added to my "wishlist" thanx!

[X-ception]

Has anyone used the epoxy glue on their pulley? If you didnt, I assume its running alright? Oh... My car goes in the shop tuesday get my pulley put on.

[steve_m]

Originally posted by X-ception
Has anyone used the epoxy glue on their pulley? If you didnt, I assume its running alright? Oh... My car goes in the shop tuesday get my pulley put on.

Yeah, I used the epoxy. Works jsut fine.

[Bumpin2000GAGT]

alright, my fastforward pulley just got here. i want to put this and the SA alternator and water pump pulleys on. since the SA pulleys are bigger and the fastforward one is smaller, what size belt do i need? anyone know? thanks a lot for all the help. :cheers:

[X-ception]

got mine put on today. Actually, I felt more of a gain with adding the pulley then adding the cai and/or exhaust. It just seems really strong up top now with the pulley.

Oh and about the mixed pullies. you need to find out how much bigger the sa ones are over stock. then add that to the 85.5" belt that the crank pulley would need if it were ran alone. Thats what I would do but I dont know the sizes of those pullies.


Quote from dealer -"That car sure seems peppy".

[Bumpin2000GAGT]

so, you're saying measure the pullies from SA and measure the stock ones and add the difference to the belt size?

[X-ception]

I'd send an email and ask street arsenal if they know what belt you need just for their pullies considering the stock belt is 86.8 (as listed on gatorback's site). Then just take 1.1" off of that which accounts for the crank pulley.

[steve_m]

Originally posted by X-ception
I'd send an email and ask street arsenal if they know what belt you need just for their pullies considering the stock belt is 86.8 (as listed on gatorback's site). Then just take 1.1" off of that which accounts for the crank pulley.

The "geniuses" at SA claim that you don't need a different belt and that stock will work. That just proves that they probably have never tested/installed these. When mine were put in we needed a different belt but I apologize I never paid attention to the part # or length...

[Bumpin2000GAGT]

thanks a lot for all the info! it's greatly appreciated, does anyone else know the size belt that SA pulleys run on? :cheers:

[fschambe]

fschambe <- NOOB... What does SA stand for? Haven't been able to find their products, any URL?

[X-ception]

Street Arsenal (http://www.streetarsenal.com)

[AaronGTR]

Couple of things.

First: The cars ECM doesn't monitor your coolant temperature for any reason other than information. If it gets to hot a dummy light on the dash goes on (same as the oil pressure light). It doesn't care how cold it is and it doesn't change anything.

Second: Everything turns by crank speed. If you get a smaller crank pulley everything will turn slower (less circumference turning at same rpm=less belt rotation).

Third: If pulleys other than the crank are bigger, they will turn slower (more circumference to travel for the same belt speed=less rpm's).

Therefore, if you put on a smaller crank pulley and other bigger pulleys you'll be slowing them down to much.

SA probably said you don't need a smaller belt because the difference in size on their smaller pulleys is small enough that the tensioner can take up the slack. A change in crank pulley size would mean a greater change in circumference due to it's larger size so a smaller belt would be needed.

The optimal thing would be to have pulleys made the same size as stock out of lighter material. That way you know you aren't messing anything up but you would still get an increase in power and throttle response. Anyone with a supercharger definitly wouldn't want a smaller crank pulley as that would slow down their blower, and they'd have to get a smaller blower pulley to compensate. Basically, GM designed the pulley sizes to turn the water pump and oil pump at certain speeds up to certain rpm, and I don't want to mess with that!;)


P.S. There's nothing wrong with Dexcool coolant. It lasts longer than others because it has a built in rust inhibiter and lubricant designed to increase the life of your cooling system. It's not designed to work with any other coolants or additives, so if you put something in it, it's going to turn into muck genious.

[fschambe]

Nice, anybody try out the TB,Upper/lower intake and stage 2 cylinder heads? They look good, but I don't see the pulley's on the site.

[steve_m]

Originally posted by fschambe
Nice, anybody try out the TB,Upper/lower intake and stage 2 cylinder heads? They look good, but I don't see the pulley's on the site.


SA is overpriced BIG TIME on their headwork

[phantom505]

For the price of the SA heads I am having the following done:

.020" plane down
bowl exhaust
Manley Valves
Flowbenched before and after
gasket matched everything (headers too)
LS1 springs & retainers
(cc heads, this might make it go over)

Just to do what they do (which is not change any hardware) you could get done for about $750, I think.

So yes, the SA are way overpriced.

[XtreemSix]

what size belt is needed for the crank pully....if that's all a person is gonna get added to his motor? the part # maybe?

[mfuller]

Originally posted by XtreemSix
what size belt is needed for the crank pully....if that's all a person is gonna get added to his motor? the part # maybe?
Just find a 6-rib belt that measures 85.5".

[steve_m]

Originally posted by phantom505
For the price of the SA heads I am having the following done:

.020" plane down
bowl exhaust
Manley Valves
Flowbenched before and after
gasket matched everything (headers too)
LS1 springs & retainers
(cc heads, this might make it go over)

Just to do what they do (which is not change any hardware) you could get done for about $750, I think.

So yes, the SA are way overpriced.


Dude, wait a couple weeks as there is a company in Calgary that is going to start mass producing ported heads and the 3.4 is one of the platforms they are doing it for and it will be much more cost effective than the SA work and in my opinion better.

Pics of the work on a 3.4 can be seen at www.entrenchtech.com/carporn <----- these are my heads as my car has turned into their test car for the 3.4 platform. They are doing another set right now to get some flow bench numbers from as I didn't bother getting mine done

[phantom505]

I'm not getting SA heads, I'm going thorugh FDP. It's just that for equal price I'm paying, I was getting more stuff done.

Anyway it's bit late now. I've had these things being worked on for some time now. Somehow I doubt they are doing LS1 springs and retainers and Manley valves.

But back to the topic......

[Dr_Kyle]

Originally posted by phantom505
For the price of the SA heads I am having the following done:
...
gasket matched everything (headers too)

I wouldn't gasket match the heads to the headers if I were you.

[MJE95GAGT]

why not?

[phantom505]

I second that. It's not like I'm ever going back to the stock manifolds.

[X-ception]

hey guys, tell me what you think about this. When I am going down the road wot, when it gets around 32-33mph, it seems like something is slipping. Its not the tranny cuz it will do it inbetween shifts like around 65 while still WOT. I figured it might be related to the sensor ring. The mechanic that put my pulley on said it would be alright without the epoxy glue but now I am beginning to wonder. unless it needs a case learn or something but I dont have any ses light. Oh and when it slips, it kinda sounds like its backfiring.

Sorry for the long post, but.... any guesses?

[phantom505]

I don't think it's the pulley. If you had an idle problem or low RPM problem that might be true, but in this case it doesn't sound like it. Go read the beginning/middle of this monster of a thread where the guy with the Alero had problems.

It shouldn't need a case learn. I didn't need one and I had the screws installed.

That's my best guess.

What size belt are you using?

[X-ception]

Gatorback 855

[Schweppe23]

Maybe your experiencing some type of miss.....if so it could be a plu, wire, coil pack, etc. I experience something similiar swapped the plugs and wires out prob gone.

Pat Lavanty

[X-ception]

it could be something like spark plugs but......

before it shifts it will "misfire" around 33mph but like when its around 75mph it just kinda jerks a little. then its good the rest of the way. just those 2 spots.

and under normal driving, it runs perfect

[steve_m]

Originally posted by X-ception
hey guys, tell me what you think about this. When I am going down the road wot, when it gets around 32-33mph, it seems like something is slipping. Its not the tranny cuz it will do it inbetween shifts like around 65 while still WOT. I figured it might be related to the sensor ring. The mechanic that put my pulley on said it would be alright without the epoxy glue but now I am beginning to wonder. unless it needs a case learn or something but I dont have any ses light. Oh and when it slips, it kinda sounds like its backfiring.

Sorry for the long post, but.... any guesses?


If you didnt use the epoxy did you use the screws? You should have done one or the other.

[X-ception]

no, i didnt use either but i had the epoxy with me at the time of the install but the mechanic chose not to use it. He said " the ring fits in there so far and its a tight fit so it wont be movin". He must not have grasped the concept of diff expansion rates of metals. But, I still think thats my prob. I'm gonna have to get that glued.

[phantom505]

I doubt it. That ring only does something at low RPM/idle. At the RPM you are referring to there is another sensor takes over. Like I said before find out about the guy with the Alero that had problems, they discussed what that sensor ring does in great depth.

[X-ception]

hey guys i need an opinion. If i get that glued, and it still misfires. will I be able to get the ring out so i can switch back to the stock pulley?

[fschambe]

Have you gotten positive acknowledgement of a misfire by seeing a SES light and a scan-tool showing misfires? If it were a misfire it would throw a code. Within that code you would get a freeze-frame with temperatures, rpm, etc and you'd have some insight.

[X-ception]

no, there has never been a code set off. maybe it just sounds like its a misfire cuz its trying to read that but its spinning at a different rate then the actual pulley.

[fschambe]

It could also be a knock or a sliping of the torque converter while shifting. The epoxy around the ring is only to keep oil from leaking out around it.

[phantom505]

That is not at all what the epoxy is for. Some rings may get warped and not seat properly causing problems at idle. That is what the email I posted in this thread stated and that is the truth:

http://www.grandamgt.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10312

[steve_m]

yup, I agree.

[X-ception]

well its not during shifting either cause at full throttle it will shift from 2nd to 3rd around 82. my car will jerk and sputter from around 72-78mph which is before the shift. I dont see why it would be making a misfiring sound if it was the torque converter.

I believe you about the ring not being the answer. I just dont see what else it could be. I seems kind of funny that it never did this before until the test drive after the pulley installation.


anyone want a crank pulley w/ gatorback for i dunno $100. :wave:

[phantom505]

My guess, something in the powertrain that is not the engine is to blame. You can check in the install job, make sure the belt is tight, it runs evenly, the bolt is tight, etc. I would check your drive axels for leaky boots, etc. Then I would have the tranny checked out.

But then again there is always waiting for the problem to get worse or let it fix itself. It might not be on the shift, but it sounds RPM related. It you get rid of the pulley the problem will probably come back. I don't think that is worth it, then again I'm not a web based mechanic either.

[X-ception]

yeah, that makes more sense to me. if the ring has nothing to do with higher rpms then scratch that. so that leaves the belt or the bolt on the pulley. The belts tight I already checked that before. Does the gatorback belt only operate in one direction?

I just can't see why something else like the tranny or drive axels could be messed up. The car was fine until I got it out and tested it for myself like 10 min after it was put on. I don't know if I mentioned this before or not but.... I drove my car for about a 1/2 hour straight and it wouldn't slip/misfire/jerk. IT was like after it got warmed up it was fine.


I'll get the car checked out sooner or later. only 2 weeks of college left so I just gotta lay off the throttle until I can look at it for myself.

[Cnix16]

yo guys i really want to get this, but i dont want all the problems X-ception is having. Like a misfire, that sucks...X are you the only one this has happend to? and did you send it back to the company to get those holes drilled?

[steve_m]

His problems are most likely not related to the pully and if they are I would suspect the install before I would suspect the pully itself. I am running this pully (no I didnt send it back either I just used epoxy) and have no problems

[phantom505]

I used the screws and it all good. Yours will come with them. I recommend it.

[X-ception]

Originally posted by steve_m
His problems are most likely not related to the pully

We'll find out tuesday morning @ 10am cuz its coming off. Well, I want them to have a look incase the install was messed up somewhow. I'd rather have it on then the stock one. it looks better and its a whole lot lighter. almost forgot, no i didnt get the holes drilled.

Whatever happened to voodoalero's car?

[phantom505]

I'm not sure, I assume that it was either not tight enough on the bolt, or maybe he was the reason for the screws tapped.

[TEAM_AED]

I just like how FFP shows you everything you need to know. They show you the install step by step, tell you exactly wht you are going to need plus how much it will cost. They tell you what to expect so your not thrown off. That is why I will be getting this pulley from them.

Has any other 3100 put this pulley on yet? Notice any good gains?