Engine gurus...

[Knappy1]

Ok, so 02 has a CAI, SLP, and ASE chip, but I want to get serious about making this thing perform, the warranty is finally about up. I've finally saved the cash and think I have a plan: ported heads, ported upper and lower intake manifolds, bigger tb, TOG headers, and a regrind on the cam. The questions I still have...what should I ask for in a regrind? anybody know how much you can get with a regrind? how aggresive can you go with out computer issues? heads...how much should I get taken off of them? are there bigger valves available? what about rocker arms? any way of getting a better ratio? realistically, how much hp/tq can I expect to have when I'm finished? I'm pretty sure I should be able to get better gains with internal mods than if I just bought the RSM SC, for less money also, any other opinions? I'm guessing that I should be able to get another 75 ponies out of this thing, but was kinda looking for opinions from the guys that have done similar work. Will I have fuel issues when I finish? Should I look into bigger injectors and a FPR, or should I just wait and see? Also, has anyone talked to ASE about custom tuning a chip?
Thanks for the info
Rob

[bszopi]

Wow... alot of questions thrown in there. I'm currently at work, so I won't be able to address them all right now. I will try later tonight though... but here we go with a couple answers.

Without a custom tune, don't expect a regrind to work well for you. I have definate fuel and spark issues at idle when first started. Once it gets into closed loop, it runs better, but still not how it should.

Larger valves... they aren't readily available, and even if they were, there really isn't a whole lot of room inside the CC to fit much bigger. The valves are already almost touching one another.

Milling the heads... you really only want to mill them just enough to make sure they are flat. If you start to mill them too much, you are going to run into issues with the valves hitting the psitons. Our CCs are very small (~26cc) and the pistons come up pretty high in the cylinder. There is some play in there, but you'd be better off going with hi-comp pistons instead.

Rocker arms.... I have seen some people (mainly GP guys on 3800s) running 1.7:1 ratio rockers, but that was without a cam. If you get a regrind (and pushrods to match), you will get increased lift and should be good to go. There is only so much you can lift the valve until you really aren't getting any more air into the CC (without help that is).

[phantom505]

I took a look into the valves, not much to work with. However you can get better springs and retainers that were made for a LS1 and I haven't looked into rocker arms yet.

To get a custom tune from ASE you have to go to them. I've already asked them. Personally I think you should go to DHP.

Fuel, yes you will need at a minimum an AFPR. I needed it after CAI, headers, and catback.

Brad, what all is involved in getting ratio changed on the rocker arms? If possible I might go ahead and do that too, but I don't want to spend too much right now. Specially since I have a turbo in the works.

[Knappy1]

Good info, keep it coming. As for ASE, I'm only a few hours away from them, so it shouldn't be a problem to get down there for a custom tune, depending on prices...I need to give them a call and find out how much it will run me. I already have their chip, so hopefully they won't charge me an arse load to make some changes to it. How far did you go with your cam? I don't feel like getting into pistons and such, just want to stick with the upper half...can I get much of an increase in compression ratio through milling with out running into clearance issues? 10:1 or 10.5:1? I still want this thing to be streetable, but I want to get the most for my money. The more I think about this, the more questions I run into...it was so much easier with a SB chevy.
Rob

[PontiacGT2K]

If you've got the $$ to get all that stuff and a regrind+install on the cam (have to pull motor out to install it) why don't you just get a supercharger? That'll make you a lot quicker than the whole all-motor approach. We've got smaller engines...all-motor doesn't get us very far unless you go nutz, still nothing really beats forced induction.

[AaronGTR]

If you want to get serious about performance forget the cam, cause the way the stock motor runs you won't see much power. Or you'll just screw up your idle. Cars with dual overhead cams, variable valve timing, VTEC etc, can have good bottom end and high rpm power. However with a single cam pushrod engine like the 3400 you either have lots of low end torque and crappy top end flow (like stock), or you have great top end breathing and no low end power. There is no adjustability. My advice to you is...buy a supercharger!;) And the headers.:D

[Knappy1]

I'm going to buy the headers, but not the supercharger. I'm pretty sure I can see the same gains, without the SC, and for less money. $4700 plus shipping is just crazy for the moderate gains people are reporting. It shouldn't be out of the question to see 250-275hp with a cam and head work, along with the other bolt-ons and such, obviously.
Look at a price comparison:
Supercharger $4700+ shipping +
headers $700 =
$5400 +

or

Heads $700 - $1000 +
headers $700 +
62 mm TB $220 +
ported up + lw intake manifolds ~ $200 - $250 +
regrind on cam ~ $150 +
custom program for chip $? maybe $500 =
$2470 - $2820

Results...hopefully...very simular. If not, I still have $2500 to play with to get the same results. I think its worth a shot.

[peeps]

Originally posted by Knappy1

Results...hopefully...very simular. If not, I still have $2500 to play with to get the same results. I think its worth a shot. or just 3 grand more to save up for the RSM to blow all the existing SC'd guys out of the water :D

[Schweppe23]

If you've got the $$ to get all that stuff and a regrind+install on the cam (have to pull motor out to install it) why don't you just get a supercharger? That'll make you a lot quicker than the whole all-motor approach. We've got smaller engines...all-motor doesn't get us very far unless you go nutz, still nothing really beats forced induction.

I dont really agree with this. An allmotor approach can make you run right next to the boosted guys. I know this because my car does.

I have pretty much exactly what you want to do...minus the cam.

Cai..TB..Upper/lower..heads..headers..catback..dyno-tune dhp... and it gives me about 175 at the wheels...and should put me at approx. 14.4ish in the 1/4. for approximately $2700 US

OR

Supercharger..catback..puts you anywhere from 14.0 to 14.8(using current boosted times)...for a lot more money.

Pat Lavanty

[Knappy1]

Originally posted by Schweppe23
I dont really agree with this. An allmotor approach can make you run right next to the boosted guys. I know this because my car does.



Did you have all your work done locally, or did you buy RSM or SA? 175hp at the wheels...so about 220hp at the crank...nice. I was hoping for more, but I don't think a cam regrind is gonna make up 30+ hp...damn it. Thanks for posting that, now I have a little better idea what to expect. If you have any tips or pointers about the engine work, I'm all ears.
Rob

[Monello]

Originally posted by peeps
or just 3 grand more to save up for the RSM to blow all the existing SC'd guys out of the water :D


If only you guys knew =)

[Knappy1]

Originally posted by AaronGTR
My advice to you is...buy a supercharger!;) And the headers.:D

I was all for a supercharger until GAP 02...the SC cars just didn't impress me that much. Granted, the RSM SC has come along way since then, but it just doesn't look like it belongs there. The magnuson SC was a nice looking package, but performance has shown to be less than spectacular, and it's not made anymore...I don't know, it is just hard to justify spending $5000 on an engine that you can buy brand new for $2000. I don't want this to be a flame war, I'm just stating my opinions. Anyway, this thread isn't about superchargers, or turbos, or no2.....it's about heads and cams and computers...let's keep it on track. please.
Rob

[AaronGTR]

Where you guys getting your info? You weren't impressed with the SC cars at GAP'02? Well there was no timing. How could you really tell anything. My car ran a 14.4 with just the SC and exhaust. Irate's car with the RSM SC ran 14 flat. You don't call that a significant performance gain? You think you'll run a 14.4 with 175whp? I have over 200whp, so I don't think so. You think you'll get 275hp with top end motor work only, and keep up with an SC'd car. I don't think so. You'll need to change the pistons and raise compression to even come close and then you'll be close to SC cost in machine work and parts. Well known fact in the auto world, an NA car can only gain so much HP and no matter what you do to them they'll never achieve 100% efficiency. A blown engine however can surpase 100%.

[PontiacGT2K]

Yeah...it takes a lot of all-motor work to get down to low 14's with our motors. There's kinda an obvious answer to your argument: NA is not better. A lil cheaper, but you can do a lot with a blown motor (ie pulley)... seriously it's just common sense....all-motor's great and all...nice to flaunt about....but if you're spending $$ just go boosted.

[Knappy1]

Can you guys just drop the whole SC thing. I've asked questions about some engine specs, not whether I should go NA or SC. I'm not out to prove anything. I don't care if I'm faster than the boost bros. My questions were how far can you grind a cam? How much can I get taken off the heads? And what kind of computer issues am I gonna have. The bottom line is...I don't want a supercharger right now. If I did, I'd just buy one. I'm glad everyone is happy with their SC's and finally getting some results with them, but if you don't have any info on cams or heads, please exit this thread and go talk to someone who cares about how great your supercharger is. I'm really only looking to talk to guys like bszopi, phantom505, and schweppe23.

[AaronGTR]

I was just trying to point out that it isn't really going to do you any good. Waste your money if you want, I DON"T CARE !

[PontiacGT2K]

As was I just trying to prove a point. You said you "really want this thing to perform" just trying to help ya out. As for specs, I don't know...but I hear that a grind on our cam won't help too much (heard this from bszopi). And it is out of the question to see 250-275hp with a cam and head work. Gains of that proportion are only expected on motors like LS1's.

[phantom505]

Let's settle down now.....

Okay, first off, the heads I'm having done through FDP are nice. I'm having a plane down by .020" (which is already done) and I'm just waiting for the cc's and that other statistics to come back once the heads are done and in the mail. We are estimating the compression ratio to be at 10:1 or close to that. I will have precise numbers soon.

If you look at my n-body link you can see all the stats on my car including what is installed.

Just to let you know ASE can't reprogram as much as DHP can and does. Things such as fan turn ons skip shifts, etc.

As far as the cam goes, it almost always helps SOME. Now my regrind is going to put power at about 5700RPM with anticipation of going with a turbo.

To hit 250HP at the wheels you need to go forced induction unless you do the bottom end of the engine. That's why I'm going with a turbo. But if you are actually shooting for 200 at the wheels you can get there pretty easy I think with top end and bolt ons.

[Craig99SE2]

175HP at the wheels is a PIECE OF CAKE with NA! I am already putting down 167HP WITHOUT a header! I imagine throwing a header in the mix would put me around 180-185HP. That coupled with a good DHP tune, 200 at the wheels is an easy goal. And yes, it would keep up with SC guys easy ... AND for the same amount of coin.

As far as a cam, don't waste the money. With our cars, the cam/head combo is about as good as it gets. Yes, you can gain a few more ponies by doing it, but the dollar to HP ratio is not even practical! If you want to wake the 3.4L up, you need to hit it at the bottleneck ... LARGER VALVES! But again, price to HP, not reasonable.

Just imagine Knappy1 ... running with the SC guys when you are NA, then next year going forced induction! Mu-hu-hah-hah-ha!!! :D

[Greed4Speed]

Don't overlook turbos. Here is a place that has a kit for the GA http://www.itsturbo.net/

It costs from $3k to $4k. Don't think it'll do much? Look what a turbo did on the 3.8 in the GN, the 4.3 in the Syclone/Typhoon, or even the MR2 4 banger. All of these cars ran high to mid 13's stock, ans the GN is a heavy beast.

[phantom505]

ITS I think is either

1)Phony
2)Not for real.

I emailed them some time ago and NEVER got a reply. I'm working with a local shopt to get a turbo setup done.

As for me, and those interested in turbo, it will help to get the cam reground to have peak HP at higher RPM, if it is possible.

About the valves, I had those polished. :)

[KpazzH0ly]

I don't want to just jump into the middle of things, but I can't understand one thing. Why is that when someone has a project in here, or thoughts about one, everyone is so negative? I have thread in the SC Turbo No2 forum labeled supercharger. I had a few questions, and wanted to learn, since you guys would "know" best. All I got was critics. I say go for it. I'm behind you all the way. PM with results or just to chat. I just think that people should be more encouragable. We are all on the same "team".

[Craig99SE2]

Originally posted by phantom505
ITS I think is either

1)Phony
2)Not for real.

I emailed them some time ago and NEVER got a reply. I'm working with a local shopt to get a turbo setup done.

As for me, and those interested in turbo, it will help to get the cam reground to have peak HP at higher RPM, if it is possible.

About the valves, I had those polished. :)
ITS is real. But I wouldn't use their turbo kit IF they paid me $3000!!! I've seen their work, I've talked to them ... NO WAY! They have NO clue WTF they are doing!

Re-grinding the cam has very little to do with peak HP vs. RPM. Just by bolting on a turbo, you'll raise peak HP RPM from about 5000 RPM to 6000 RPM. This is 100% due to the power adder, not the cam! The *ONLY* benefit to a regrind in a turbo app is to remove ALL overlap thus preventing that boost from blowing out the exhaust valve when the engine is supposed to be scavenging.

Sorry phantom, but polishing the valves still does not increase cfm anymore than a mild P&P. There is still no excuse for a larger valve. Look at any aftermarket V8 head, 80% of them include larger valves! More CFM is only as good if the valves can allow it into the combustion chamber with they given time they are open. Yes, a regrind and rockers help a little, but there is no excuse for a 20% larger opening! (vs. 2% more duration ...)

[phantom505]

Well I have had almost everything you can do to these heads done. This happened to include valves. I did it because every little bit helps and doing it all at once just made sense to me. When you get 250ish HP 2% starts to matter a little bit more. I just hope they get here soon.

Although I'm think maybe I should install the turbo first, then do the heads and cam..... what do you think?

The main reason for doing the cam is that they have to tear down the engine anyway, so why not? I know not to expect huge gains, but like I said before......

As for the criticism, I'll take it any day. It can't do anything but help really don't I don't get mad. I have learned sooooo much about performance in the last 6 months its ridiculous.

[Craig99SE2]

The order in which you do things does not matter since the end goal is what we are all trying to achieve. Yes, I agree that every little bit helps, but I guess for some of us, there is a limit. I myself would not spend $1000 on a cam w/install for 5HP. But that's just me ...

[phantom505]

Well doing the heads at the same time of the as the cam should only add a few extra hours of labor. The part itself doesn't cost all that much. I'm willing to bet I'll get more than 5 HP, but it will be hard to tell because I'm doing the heads/cam/lower intake manifold/upper intake/62mm TB (hopefully)

I'm just trying to work out how it would work best considering I'll be trying to get the computer tuned with the turbo installed. If I do the cam and heads first, that might throw off the numbers if my car is to be the prototype. But if I do it everything else outside of the development the turbo then I probably get hit with the full price of the reprogram.

And I did some looking, but from what I have read the cam controls where most of the power is. Is this not true?

[Craig99SE2]

Originally posted by phantom505
And I did some looking, but from what I have read the cam controls where most of the power is. Is this not true?

*IF* you a getting an entirely new cam made with different timing on the lobes. The only thing available for us is a regrind unless you want to spend $1000 for a new cam. All a regrind will do is ever-so-slightly increase lift and reduce overlap. FOr a NA car, it is not even worth the effort of an install. On a turbo car, removing the overlap will help a bit more.

[phantom505]

I see, well that's what I'll ask him to do for me then. I'll see what he can do. Thanks.

[mfuller]

Well, if I was to re-do everything again (and I sdpeak from experience - I've spent well over $10,000 in mods over the past 3 years; some I've liked and kept, some I didn't and got rid of)....here's what I'd do......

Save up for headers and RSM's supercharger. Boom, you're done. They include a new PCM re-program in the cost of the kit. I'd wager you'll see 270-280HP from the car after all is said and done. If you can get traction, mid-13's are not out of the question.

I don't think porting the heads in intake manifolds is worth much, as others have stated. They flow surprisingly well from the factory; GM did a good job. If you choose a cam (or a cam regrind), sure you might see some more power, but installing the cam is difficult at best, and chances are you'll compromise idle quality and driveability. (The SC is so cool because it does all the magic for you without killing your idle or low-rpm driveability.) Now you have to tune it all. Oh, and add in for a new torque converter to better match that new cam. It adds up fast. Yes, it is possible to get 270HP NA out of these motors, but how long do you want it to live? It won't be long.

The 3400 has proven to be a very strong motor for those who have been boosting, what, 2 or 3 years? I am very confident in the "stoutness" of the bottom-end. Seriously, it costs less in the long run to go with products that already have proven results. My 2 cents.

[phantom505]

That's some food for thought. I think I'm going to go with the turbo only because they seem to be more efficient and the supercharger will run me an extra $1500.

I think I might just end up doing the lower and heads install after the turbo.

I think I did what you did, start a NA build up and then find himself looking for forced induction. Is this right?

[Knappy1]

Well, this is the response I got from Crower concerning cams:

Regrinds on your stock cams are available. Specs are typically 10-15 degrees
more duration and .010"-.015" more lift. HP gains are in the 5-15 range
depending on tuning. Rough idle is common if we exceed the above figures.

Cost is $75 per cam. Allow 1 week shop time + shipping. Send cores along
with detailed note stating engine model, intended application, power adders
(turbo, NOS, etc), rpm range to address below.

Thanks for your interest in Crower,

Crower Cams & Equipment Co Inc
3333 Main Street
Chula Vista CA 91911-5899 USA
Phone: 619-422-1191
Fax: 619-422-9067
http://www.crower.com

[phantom505]

I'm amuzed. Only because when I called Crower they blew me off. Guess I just got someone who didn't really care.

[KpazzH0ly]

Quick and dumb question... If you bore out the cylanders and valves, got bigger pistons, a cam regrind / new cam, port and polish heads, LIM, UIM, TB, and get bigger fuel injectors, and torque converter, trans cooler, oil cooler, and msd ignition, and then put a sc on.....what do u think that would do? im just curious........cuz i think about this all the time, and i want to do it, its just that money and time are a hard thing to get now a days........(curiosity) how much would it cost to make a car AWD??? sorry if it all sounds stupid. its just seems like you guys are more supportive then others i met.

[Knappy1]

I think it would cost you over $10,000 and be a really fast GA. But, for the same 10K, you could do a Northstar swap and have something really unique. As for AWD, good luck.

[SikMindz]

Mmm...one car for show and one for go, eh? LoL...if you're heading to Chula Vista for the regrind let me know and I'd be more than happy to keep you company. I have the APOC 62mm TB and the Ported Upper Mani sitting next to me right now just waiting for install- I'll let you know how the car feels after and hopefully get some track times in soon.

[Craig99SE2]

Originally posted by KpazzH0ly
Quick and dumb question... If you bore out the cylanders and valves, got bigger pistons, a cam regrind / new cam, port and polish heads, LIM, UIM, TB, and get bigger fuel injectors, and torque converter, trans cooler, oil cooler, and msd ignition, and then put a sc on.....what do u think that would do? im just curious........cuz i think about this all the time, and i want to do it, its just that money and time are a hard thing to get now a days........(curiosity) how much would it cost to make a car AWD??? sorry if it all sounds stupid. its just seems like you guys are more supportive then others i met.

With everything BUT the AWD part, you'd be at around 300HP. The problem then lies in the drivetrain. While the stock trans might be good up to about 250HP, 300HP is pushing it to the edge. Realistically, you could run low 13's and 12's if you get traction enhancers (slicks, etc.). Then with that kind of torque the axles might be a factor. Anyhew, *IF* everything was beefed to handle the 300HP, high 12's are VERY possible!

[Knappy1]

Ok, so ASE got back to me. They said $699 and 3 days to do a custom chip.

[phantom505]

That's outrageous. I'm willing to bet DHP can do better and in less time. It shouldn't take 3 days to do what should take an hour or two tops.

Seriously, get a hold of DHP and see what you can work out.

[KpazzH0ly]

Thanx I new you guys would help me out a lot more. Now I have to wait till I get to UTI......... :-) So who in these forums has the most engine mods? like internals?

[peeps]

Originally posted by phantom505
That's outrageous. I'm willing to bet DHP can do better and in less time. It shouldn't take 3 days to do what should take an hour or two tops.

Seriously, get a hold of DHP and see what you can work out. Also, DHP probably has a pilot vehicle with similar mods, so you might not even have to go there to get a "custom" tune....

[phantom505]

Originally posted by KpazzH0ly
Thanx I new you guys would help me out a lot more. Now I have to wait till I get to UTI......... :-) So who in these forums has the most engine mods? like internals?

Can you be more specific? I'll have some done pretty soon. Hopefully less than 2 weeks. Then about 4 for the turbo.

[KpazzH0ly]

like im mean heads boring port and polishing etc internals

[phantom505]

I'm having about as much as you can do on the top end. I was thinking of going all motor, but decided a turbo was best.

I'll have numbers for complete intake (minus MAF) and headers all the way back (with stock cat) including cut out and heads and cam. I don't know if anyone has bored out a 3400 block yet.

[Craig99SE2]

Originally posted by KpazzH0ly
Thanx I new you guys would help me out a lot more. Now I have to wait till I get to UTI......... :-) So who in these forums has the most engine mods? like internals?

I have the entire RSM upper-end (heads, intakes, TB).

mjhurley1 has the entire SA upper-end.

There are a few more with SA and someone just posted the other day about RSM, but they are not frequent posters like Mike and myself.

[KpazzH0ly]

hm......I also hear that its better to go to a custom shop. I believe Monello told me that he can find a shop that can do it for cheaper........I dunno. Well I dont exactly know. But I will get my engine bored out, but its going to take about a year, cuz its a class in UTI and to get to the class you have to go through so many others. And this way I can do it myself and it would be cheaper. Thanx again guys.

[Craig99SE2]

A custom shop may be cheaper than SA, but RSM's prices are pretty hard to beat! Even at a local shop! For under $2K, you get an entirely ported & polished top-end with gaskets, fluids and labor!

[phantom505]

I haven't got a grand total yet, but the heads that I ordered (and are almost done) ran me $1000. This included new springs and retainers. So shop around.

[Knappy1]

I was told $350-500 for a pair of heads plus parts...i.e. valves and springs and such. Just call some local shops.
Rob

[Craig99SE2]

Be careful! Parts can add up to SEVERAL hundred more EASY! springs, valves and retainers are not cheap! Personally, I don't think anyone can touch RSM's price at $699/set! That is WITH new valves, springs and retainers BTW!

[phantom505]

Well I got LS1 springs and retainers, seats, .020" plane down, 3 angle grind, bowled and ported exhaust to match headers, and polished valves, and each of the combustion chambers matched, and gasket matched intake, flowbenching

I think that's about right for what I paid for.

[Craig99SE2]

With the valve job and polished valves, that's about right...

[Schweppe23]

Has anyone inquired on custom forged pistons and rods? If so...what replies did you get if any. Those who know our motor, what kind of gains could one expect by doing those.

Thanks,
Pat Lavanty

[bszopi]

You can get custom forged pistons from Ross Racing and the rods don't really need to be custom. All you need is older style 327 SBC rods with the smaller journal size. They might need to be machined some, but its very do-able. You can get these from at least Crower, if not several other manufacturers. Same goes with the pistons, actually. There are several other companies out there (Aries is one that comes to mind for quick, limited quantity custom orders) that will do custom pistons, but I know for a fact that Ross does them.

[FORTEEN3GT]

Originally posted by bszopi

Larger valves... they aren't readily available, and even if they were, there really isn't a whole lot of room inside the CC to fit much bigger. The valves are already almost touching one another.

Milling the heads... you really only want to mill them just enough to make sure they are flat. If you start to mill them too much, you are going to run into issues with the valves hitting the psitons. Our CCs are very small (~26cc) and the pistons come up pretty high in the cylinder.

decking or milling .020.....is this too much....factory says .009 is recommended!....but that is if you plan on rebuilding the heads in the future..what do you think?

[Babalouie]

Originally posted by AaronGTR
Where you guys getting your info? You weren't impressed with the SC cars at GAP'02? Well there was no timing. How could you really tell anything. My car ran a 14.4 with just the SC and exhaust. Irate's car with the RSM SC ran 14 flat. You don't call that a significant performance gain? You think you'll run a 14.4 with 175whp? I have over 200whp, so I don't think so. You think you'll get 275hp with top end motor work only, and keep up with an SC'd car. I don't think so. You'll need to change the pistons and raise compression to even come close and then you'll be close to SC cost in machine work and parts. Well known fact in the auto world, an NA car can only gain so much HP and no matter what you do to them they'll never achieve 100% efficiency. A blown engine however can surpase 100%.


Got the motor built. Whats next?

[AaronGTR]

Originally posted by Babalouie
Got the motor built. Whats next?

With that motor you shouldn't have any problems handling lots of boost, at least as long as they didn't raise the compression ratio. If they did, you could look into a direct port nitrous system. Otherwise, I'd look into the turbo system that HPP is putting together for Phantom505. With built internals and a good turbo, all you need is enough fuel and a reprogrammed PCM and you should get big numbers. Wether the tranny will hold it for long or not is the question. That problem may soon be solved as well.