switching to green coolant?

[CATAssassin]

I've heard the reason that our intake manifold seal goes is because of the dexcool. I heard that here. I was wondering if its OK to switch to green coolant to prevent that? Since mine are starting seep just a little bit

[PGsGT]

Originally posted by CATAssassin
I've heard the reason that our intake manifold seal goes is because of the dexcool. I heard that here. I was wondering if its OK to switch to green coolant to prevent that? Since mine are starting seep just a little bit

I have heard people say that it eats gaskets also.....but I doubt its the antifreeze only - because the 3100's have problems with the intake gaskets also - pre 96. I have had to have mine replaced in my car.

I think that all you would have to do is go to a mechanic and have him flush the system and add the green stuff....its much cheaper too:thumbs:

[CATAssassin]

Well I can do it at work (work a jiffy lube). But I just didnt know if it was gonna hurt anything like the water pump or what-have-you.

[ZakkWylde470]

Considering that EVERY GM car since the 1997 model year uses Dex-Cool, and the Grand Ams are the only cars that have the problems with the intake gaskets, I think it would be a safe bet that the Dex-Cool has little to no effect on them. It's the gaskets and the angles in the engine that cause the failures.

[VaGT]

Originally posted by ZakkWylde470
Considering that EVERY GM car since the 1997 model year uses Dex-Cool, and the Grand Ams are the only cars that have the problems with the intake gaskets, I think it would be a safe bet that the Dex-Cool has little to no effect on them. It's the gaskets and the angles in the engine that cause the failures.


Bingo.


It's not the Dexcool. I just wouldn't leave it in for 150K miles like they claim. Flush it earlier. I'm going to have mine flushed when I get the tranny fluid done.

[CATAssassin]

Oh ok. Yeah it was just something i thought I read here. I guess it was wrong. But thank you guys for the advice you've been most helpful.

[tjc13]

Quote:
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Originally posted by ZakkWylde470
Considering that EVERY GM car since the 1997 model year uses Dex-Cool, and the Grand Ams are the only cars that have the problems with the intake gaskets, I think it would be a safe bet that the Dex-Cool has little to no effect on them. It's the gaskets and the angles in the engine that cause the failures.
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Grand Am's are far from the only GM car that has problems with the intake gaskets. My Monte Carlo (3100) had the same problem... actually any GM car or mini-van with a 3100 / 3400 has a good probability of having a gasket fail!

Also, I don't know that it's the gaskets and the angles. I believe that it's more due to the fact that cast iron and aluminum don't work together well. They expand and contract at different temperatures thus making it very hard to keep a good seal.

Maybe GM should have put a S/C 3800 in our cars to keep the GTP's on their toes and relieve us of some :rage: gaskets.

[Licit]

I'd have loved the SC 3800 as well but fitting it in there would have been a beatch to do. As for the gaskets I started with a little leak but after some time it became major internal leakage. Using that Restore lube/compression increaser actually did help to seal up so I didn't leak on the outside of the engine. The only good thing that has happened with the gasket situation is that there is a better TSB for the guys who do the job. I know they are supposed to coat the screws and tighten to an increased spec. I'm pretty sure the gasket itself is a little better, using a design that will help to maintain a seal for a little longer at the very least.

[Gimli]

Originally posted by CATAssassin
Well I can do it at work (work a jiffy lube). But I just didnt know if it was gonna hurt anything like the water pump or what-have-you.

Well, if anything fails after you change the coolant that is in any way coolant-related (including the gasket) your warranty will be voided.

For that reason alone you shouldn't change the kind of coolant you have until you're at least out of warranty.

[safemode]

first off, i dont know who started the dexcool eats gaskets rumour but what happens to the gaskets in grand am's is because it's not fitted correctly for the engine and not made sturdy enough (new one has metal in it) it cracks on the outside. This is where the majority of coolant leak problems are at. 50% of the cars pontiac made with the old gasket have the gasket fail prematurely, most are external seal failures. But there are a good minority of the internal kind. Perhaps the eating gaskets rumour started when you look at the gasket and notice chunks missing, but that is caused by the gasket cracking and then breaking apart, as it becomes too brittle. It's a bad gasket, period. Dexcool is designed to be non-reactive to the metal of the engine ... whatever it uses seems to do the job since when the gasket doesn't fail, you can keep the same coolant in use for a significantly longer amount of time than normal coolant. Dexcool bonds to the metals surface much in the same way that oil does. If you change it you should probably get the system thouroughly flushed and say goodbye to any warranty you had regarding anything that coolant touches or is heat-failure related.

If you work at jiffy lube and have a mechanic there, maybe you can pay him a couple hundred to take the intake manifold off, buy yourself the new gasket (i believe it's 120 for it) and have him stick it on. I had connections and it cost me 340 bucks and the guy even threw in a free acid wash of my rims.

[CATAssassin]

yeah i know a guy that will do it for me (he changed 2 heads and 2 head gaskets on my old cavalier for 300 buck, including the cost of parts). But thank you guys for the info.

[VaGT]

Originally posted by Gimli
Well, if anything fails after you change the coolant that is in any way coolant-related (including the gasket) your warranty will be voided.

For that reason alone you shouldn't change the kind of coolant you have until you're at least out of warranty.


I wouldn't touch it until you are out of warrantee either.

[Greed4Speed]

The dexcool has lubricants and a lower silicate content for less corrosion.

The 6cyls seem to be the only vehicles w/ intake gasket issues. If Dexcool ate gaskets I'm sure I'd have heard about it in the F-body forums also, but they don't seem to have the problem.

Warping break calipers on the other hand is a universal GM problem.

[tjc13]

I would hope that calipers aren't warping. I think you meant to say rotors.
If calipers warped I don't think GM could sell their vehicles.

[JHawk GT]

Originally posted by CATAssassin
I was wondering if its OK to switch to green coolant to prevent that? Since mine are starting seep just a little bit

Have you thought about switching to purple coolant?

www.evanscooling.com/html/npgPls.htm#end

I'm looking into this stuff. It's supposedly a true lifetime coolant that is waterless.

[safemode]

whenever you get further away from water coolant your coolant's performance at actually cooling goes down. Very few liquids are as optimal coolants as pure water, all additives are usually compromises between lifetime and cooling performance.

[JHawk GT]

Originally posted by safemode
whenever you get further away from water coolant your coolant's performance at actually cooling goes down.

Then I must be reading these (www.evanscooling.com/html/tech1.htm) physical properties comparisons wrong. I’m seeing an improvement in the physical properties across the comparisons, and that improvement would necessarily impact performance for the better.

[safemode]

what that chart says is Evans has a lower surface tension, so it connects to the metal better than water. High boiling point, so it wont vaporize as fast as water. It also says it has a lower specific heat, which is the tradeoff you make for getting away from water. Basically as long as their claim is true that your engine is vaporizing pockets of water then it makes sense to get away from water. The question is, is your non-race-car engine (since they seem to be targeting ametuer racers with high yield engines) running hot enough that it is doing that? As long as your engine is causing the coolant to vaporize locally (at least chronically in the same area) then sure, there is a good improvement. Otherwise you're more than likely using a coolant that is not optimal for your car's running range. This is a racing coolant which illustrates a situation that occurs in racing engines.

[JHawk GT]

I’m aware of how the physical properties of coolant translate into function. I’m also aware that simply accepting manufacturer’s engineering as optimal is, at best, a stretch—at least for me. If I did that, then I wouldn’t have switched to true synthetic lubricants.

It’s common knowledge that heat in typical combustion chambers reaches extreme temps; so nucleate boiling is very plausible, even likely. I have no direct evidence that it occurs in any of my engines, but I’m not going to assume that it doesn’t simply because they haven’t been modded for racing. I’ve had far too many discussions with engineers and users of this product to think that.

It is true that Evans coolants were developed with motorsports in mind. And, like other product lines (Redline, for example), the technology has spread to non-racing applications. I’m glad that happened because one of the things I find intriguing is its reduced pressure requirements. That’s something that seems very important to system components, like our shoddy intake gaskets.

So, who’s to say that Dex-Cool is optimal for our engines? Factory fill isn’t a good enough justification for me, neither is the fact that it contains water. I don't believe that it functions optimally for the recommended 5yr/100,000mile maintenance intervals. GM engineers work with constraints (emissions legislation, budgets, etc.)—not a good context for pushing the performance envelope and satisfying the change-resistant masses.

I like to question things, especially the status quo—to each his/her own :thumbs:

[Craig99SE2]

Originally posted by JHawk GT
I like to question things, especially the status quo—to each his/her own :thumbs:

I see I'm not alone ... (and I run the green stuff! :D)

[safemode]

nobody was assuming the manufacturer is using the optimal thing. I know i never mentioned manufacturer choice at all. Just stating that the optimal temp range for Evans approaches the failure temp of water based coolants and that this range is outside most cars running stock. Nobody has direct evidence to prove or disprove that though. The only proof i have is that my car doesn't knock (one of the signs mentioned on the site) when pushing the peddle to the floor or when idling in 100 degree heat. Nor does it have any other strange noises. So in the absense of signs of stress i have to conclude i'm still well within the optimal range of dexcool. And evans and heavily water based coolants don't overlap, meaning they're not made for exactly the same usage.

Questioning the status quo is fine and all. Adopting stuff from racing is usually a good thing. Doing these things without weighing the why's (why am i using this and they're using that) and what's (what is it going to give me that i dont have) is just as blind as assuming the manufacturer is giving you the best.

Of course, i doubt there is going to be any evidence directly showing this to our engines or not (since you'd have to gut it and take pictures etc) so this will go no where fast. I just wanted to clear up that i wasn't assuming the manufacturer was doing anything.

[STRMurphy]

I found the problem with green to be none of the above. I wasnt paying attention when I added coolant to my system a year ago and added a bit of green to top it off... bad choice. Traditional coolant and Dex-Cool react very badly and mess up the pH of the system, thus inducing corrosion and eating away at the intake gasket. I had my gasket replaced and refilled with Dex-Cool, not a single problem, and didnt have any until I added the green. If you really want to go green, then completely flush the system, replace all the gaskets, and then refill, its the only safe way to do it. Just dont mix the two, there is a reason that the warning is in your manual not to do it, I just found out the hard way...

[Greed4Speed]

I would hope that calipers aren't warping. I think you meant to say rotors.

Yes, I meant rotors. :blushing: