Anyone with RSM experiance??

[athomas]

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone had any experiance with the RSM heads, upper and lower, and Throttle body?

Thoughts, suggestions, pre-cautions??

Thanks for your input!

[2000GA]

craig did, he said it was 10hp and 10 tourqe

http://www.grandamgt.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13033&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

[Vegeta]

1500 for that? Wow...I would be very upset. Oh, and RSM went the extra mile to **** me off.

[Craig99SE2]

I have the entire RSM top-end package. Yeah, the dyno sheet only shows a 10HP. 10ft-lb gain, but notice the linearity of the gain across the entire RPM band. The area under the curve is what matters, not the peak numbers. The car was ENTIRELY different before and after. The guys at RSM were very helpful, knowledgeable and did a top notch job on the install. I have had several thousand miles since and not one single problem except a belt that is too long. We found out Dayco has the wrong Part # in their Application Guide!

I'd highly recommend RSM! Their prices are VERY reasonable and the labor rate was cheapest around! IMHO, 8 hours at $40/hour is VERY REASONABLE for a complete top-end install! They also went the extra mile to shuttle me to-and-from the hotel when they did the install!

BTW, for pics, go to my page in my sig and click on the "pics" after the RSM parts listing...

PS - Adam, you are more than welcome to drive it ... just PM me.

[Craig99SE2]

Originally posted by Vegeta
1500 for that? Wow...I would be very upset. Oh, and RSM went the extra mile to **** me off.

For what? I am VERY happy! Try getting more than 15HP from a topend swap!!! The Gen 3 LA1 is about 90% efficient from GM. So, unless we find someone to give us larger valves, port & polish ain't gonna do squat! But also remember that every mod I make from here on out is only that much better because I flow several percent better than stock!

[Vegeta]

1500 though...thats insane. As long as you are happy though.

[Craig99SE2]

Originally posted by Vegeta
1500 though...thats insane. As long as you are happy though.

That was out-the door with the following:

- Ported Heads
- Ported UIM
- Ported LIM
- 62mm TB
- Complete Topend Gasket Set
- Mobil 1 5W30 Oil Change & Filter
- Complete Coolant Flush with new "green stuff"
- Serpentine Belt
- 6 new AC Delco Copper Spark Plugs
- AND THE LABOR TO DO ALL THE ABOVE!

Not too bad IMHO considering just the SA heads WITHOUT install are $1000!!!!

[Vegeta]

They actually sell a 62mm TB? Or is it like their 72mm TB for the 3.4 DOHC that is really 69mm? Im just asking. I didnt know they did the labor either, I figured you could have done that yourself.

[Craig99SE2]

Originally posted by Vegeta
They actually sell a 62mm TB? Or is it like their 72mm TB for the 3.4 DOHC that is really 69mm? Im just asking. I didnt know they did the labor either, I figured you could have done that yourself.

Well, it is between 61 and 62mm. They go back and forth with what they sell it as... It measures like 61.7mm. They can get >61mm by boring, sleeving, then re-boring. Otherwise, the bearings tend to break out of the cast body.

Yes, I could have done it myself, but I have never been to Toronto and figured I'd take a vacation ... And considering only a $360 labor bill ... It was worth it considering I would have probably broke a few things getting p*ssed off! :D

[EBlend]

Originally posted by Craig99SE2

- 8 new AC Delco Copper Spark Plugs

is there something we don't know about your car!!!! hehe!

[Craig99SE2]

Originally posted by EBlend
is there something we don't know about your car!!!! hehe!

Yeah! The dumba$$ that drives it can't count! DOH! ... fixed now ...

[Vegeta]

Im surprised you only got 10hp (yes, and the curve) from the TB on there as well. Sounds like your computer is the problem. I have ported 3400 heads before and can tell you that the bowl area transition to the valve seat along with a valve job alone should give you a nice gain. The intakes...well thats a waste of money to have ported but the heads and TB should have done more for you.

[Craig99SE2]

Originally posted by Vegeta
Im surprised you only got 10hp (yes, and the curve) from the TB on there as well. Sounds like your computer is the problem. I have ported 3400 heads before and can tell you that the bowl area transition to the valve seat along with a valve job alone should give you a nice gain. The intakes...well thats a waste of money to have ported but the heads and TB should have done more for you.

I don't know, but I have yet to see anything much more from anyone running RSM or SA's ported setup ...

[Vegeta]

I can't believe that is the case when quite a few companies claim 20+ hp from the heads alone. Welll, I can believe those companies are lying/don't know but for it to be allowed and word of mouth not spreading...im in disbelief.

I hope its the computer causing problems...but I wouldn't imagine that just heads and intakes would be out of range for the computer. There is more to it than the computer learning...but to keep it simple that is pretty weak.

You are going boost right? Just curious if thats the case how you had the heads done. I know that with the 3.4 DOHC, you can port them 1 way for mad low end, and another way to kill the low end but give awesome high RPM.

On topic with RSM...if you want to see what I won't deal with them, its quite a difference from craig's experience.

http://discussions.gmforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40254

[Dr_Kyle]

Reading those emails, it looks like they offered to resolve the situation by replacing them if they didn't fit. Don't know what the big deal is... :confused:


Plus, this is on their site and it's been there for a while now:

*** NO RETURN OR REFUND, EXCHANGE ONLY. CANCELLED ORDERS CARRY A 25% RESTOCKING FEE. US PRICES MAY CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE DUE TO EXCHANGE RATE. THERE MAY BE CUSTOMS AND DUTY CHARGES ON SOME INTERNATIONAL ORDERS ***

[Vegeta]

where is that at...i looked all over and had quite a few people look as well.

edit: I see its on the order form page now. I didnt see that when I looked months ago. Anyway, i didn't appreciate their 2 months to ship policy. Then telling me I don't know how to install the bushings...and telling me they work when they send me a different set of bushings that are obviously not identical. No explanation for that either.

[5-lO]

As far as gains go, SA and Doctorspeed both have in writing, gains of 50-60 HP. Now that is for stage two (im guessign racing heads) on both, so Im guessing stage one would be like 30hp? Also, why doesnt RSM offer difft stages? Seems odd...

Also, to who said that p/p UIM/LIM doesnt help... combined with ported heads they make a HUGE difference, and you can even get gains on a car with stock heads, or so I hear...

But then again I dont know everything, and come from (god knows why) being previously interested in Ri,ce where the DOHC engins produced MAD amounts of power...

Jon

[Dr_Kyle]

Just to clarify, Doctor Speed does not list 50-60 hp gains from heads.

[5-lO]

Originally posted by Dr_Kyle
Just to clarify, Doctor Speed does not list 50-60 hp gains from heads.

And you would obviously know :p ... I must be going crazy, I could have SWORN you had that labeled. wtf wtf wtf ... damn pain killers from my surgery are getting to me.

Ok so Doctor Speed says 15-25 Which I am guessing is more reasonable?

I wonder if SA has dynos to prove there 50-60 :rolleyes:

Jon

[Vegeta]

Stage anything is complete BS to me. EIther the heads are ported for your application, or they aren't. Sure, it may cost more to have them done to your needs, but that doesn't make it stage 1 or 40. Its a fad, ready and willing to die I hope.

[PontiacGT2K]

Our heads flow fairly well stock. Close to the same CFM as LT1 heads. The Intake Mainfolds have 90 degree bends in them that make them very restrictive.

[Vegeta]

i have no idea what you are talking about. You can't do anything about the 90 degree bend in the intake without a custom setup. Plus the 90 degree bend isn't going to do much overall because the size of the ports and the runners are acting like a funnel to the head.

[Craig99SE2]

Originally posted by Free03GT
As far as gains go, SA and Doctorspeed both have in writing, gains of 50-60 HP. Now that is for stage two (im guessign racing heads) on both, so Im guessing stage one would be like 30hp? Also, why doesnt RSM offer difft stages? Seems odd...

Also, to who said that p/p UIM/LIM doesnt help... combined with ported heads they make a HUGE difference, and you can even get gains on a car with stock heads, or so I hear...

But then again I dont know everything, and come from (god knows why) being previously interested in Ri,ce where the DOHC engins produced MAD amounts of power...

Jon

Yeah, they *claim* 50-60 HP but when you ask them for dyno charts, they seemed to have misplaced them. BTW, I am going to sell you a IAT resistor mod that will give you 20HP! They are all over eBay ... Just because someone writes it doesn't make it true! There is NO WAY ported heads, intake, and TB give 50-60HP! If that were the case, the P&P guys could run with the S/C guys times which I have yet to see as well!

One word ... MARKETING!!!

[Craig99SE2]

Originally posted by Vegeta
You are going boost right? Just curious if thats the case how you had the heads done. I know that with the 3.4 DOHC, you can port them 1 way for mad low end, and another way to kill the low end but give awesome high RPM.

No, I have their standard port job, mild bowl work, 3-angle valve job and new valvetrain. They flowbenched the first set and then made templates by which they port the others. The improvements were:

Intake: 140 -> 180 CFM
Exhaust: 108 -> 149 CFM

Don't know the specifics like atmosphere pressure, so don't ask ... :p

[phantom505]

Originally posted by Craig99SE2
Yeah, they *claim* 50-60 HP but when you ask them for dyno charts, they seemed to have misplaced them. BTW, I am going to sell you a IAT resistor mod that will give you 20HP! They are all over eBay ... Just because someone writes it doesn't make it true! There is NO WAY ported heads, intake, and TB give 50-60HP! If that were the case, the P&P guys could run with the S/C guys times which I have yet to see as well!

One word ... MARKETING!!!

Huh???? :p

There's a reason why I went from NA only to uh... turbocharged. I still have a sick set of heads coming, and my cam has been sitting here for 6 weeks.

However, I'm wondering how my bottom is going to hold up, and I don't really care until I see how the tranny reacts to the turbo. I think with the B&M cooler that Craig used, plus the friction plates and synthetic fluid (any suggestions on brand?) it should hold up okay.

For the money, check out if one of the forced induction solutions fits in your budget.

[Babalouie]

Hi Craig!!! I know.....the best part of your trip to Toronto was to meet me right!?!?!?!?! Wait to you see what I have!

[Vegeta]

Thats all the numbers they gave you? What about specific valve lifts? Those numbers don't match anything I have seen, plus the gains look like they would hurt low end and throw the computer off. That is, if I make some assumptions on those numbers.

A 3 angle valve job isn't gonna do much over stock either, which is why I do 5 angle valve jobs when I port heads.

[Schweppe23]

Yeah, they *claim* 50-60 HP but when you ask them for dyno charts, they seemed to have misplaced them. BTW, I am going to sell you a IAT resistor mod that will give you 20HP! They are all over eBay ... Just because someone writes it doesn't make it true! There is NO WAY ported heads, intake, and TB give 50-60HP! If that were the case, the P&P guys could run with the S/C guys times which I have yet to see as well!

At GAP Sorry_Officer ran a 14.8 (NA) in the quarter and the S/C guys without using n20 ran anywhere from 14.4 (spaz) to 14.6 (irate) to 15.0 (amraam) Those numbers might be off a bit cause i killed a lot of brain cells this weekend, but they are fairly accurate.

Pat Lavanty

[Vegeta]

Does he have headers? Are the SC guys actually tuned?

[mfuller]

Sorry_Officer has a ported top end (TB, upper and lower IMs, and heads) and headers. The car has been tuned on a dyno with a new cal from DHP.

Neither Irate nor amraam have headers; irate has a RSM re-program (I can't comment on how they tune it), and I'm pretty sure Amraam is on a stock, untuned PCM cal.

SPAZ has an aftermarket tune to work with the SC (I think), but it wasn't a custom tune for his specific car. He does not have headers either.

[Vegeta]

That makes a lot of difference then. The computer (i doubt RSM has it tuned the best it can be...but thats just me) makes up a HUGE role in how a boosted engine, or NA engine will run. Headers are a must because stock sucks. This is just a case of Sorry_Officer having his engine done right and the SC guys playing catch up.

[Craig99SE2]

Exactly ... Sorry_Officer has headers which are good for between 15-20 by themselves! So, do the math and you have between 10-15HP from a P&P job!

Vegeta - No, RSM did not kill my low end. They specifically don't touch the velocity runner in the intake bowl ... they port everything but. Hence the even 10HP, 10ft-lb gain across the ENTIRE RPM band!

[Vegeta]

yeah, thats why I said assuming those numbers actually meant something. However, they do not.

[5-lO]

Ok so lets do this then...

From the "Stage 1" port/polish of heads offered by DS and SA, which I assume is the same port/polish of heads as RSM, what gains, crank or wheel, can be expected from these when combined with Intake, P/P UIM, TB?

And the "Stage 2" which Im guessing is a little more "aggresive" or what not?

Also, could someone explain what you would want done to your heads as far as porting/polishing and "valve jobs"

Jon

[Craig99SE2]

Actually, RSM estimates that they are somewhere between Street Arsenal's Stage 2 and 3.

I have dyno charts to show 10HP, 10ft-lbs across the band on my website (click the link in sig). This is RSM heads, ported UIM/LIM, and 62mm TB. A.k.a. comaparable to Street Arsenal Stage 2.

As for what you want done, there is an excellent article at 60degreev6.com on head porting.

[Craig99SE2]

Originally posted by Babalouie
Hi Craig!!! I know.....the best part of your trip to Toronto was to meet me right!?!?!?!?! Wait to you see what I have!

Hey man! You just keep popping up in my threads! :p

Now what did you do? Dare I ask???

[Babalouie]

I took it to the extreme!!!! Installation should be next week, then you'll see in the pics that I will post!!!! Now just because you came from all the from the MI to come see me, I'll show you first!!!!

[Craig99SE2]

Originally posted by Babalouie
I took it to the extreme!!!! Installation should be next week, then you'll see in the pics that I will post!!!! Now just because you came from all the from the MI to come see me, I'll show you first!!!!

Aw Shucks! Thanx! ;)

[5-lO]

Originally posted by Craig99SE2
Actually, RSM estimates that they are somewhere between Street Arsenal's Stage 2 and 3.

I have dyno charts to show 10HP, 10ft-lbs across the band on my website (click the link in sig). This is RSM heads, ported UIM/LIM, and 62mm TB. A.k.a. comaparable to Street Arsenal Stage 2.

As for what you want done, there is an excellent article at 60degreev6.com on head porting.


Thanks. See that is the kind of answer on GAGT that I respect. Short but usefull and to the point! Thanks Craig

Jon

[Welcum]

Hey guys, I just read this whole thread and I'd like to jump in. I got SA UIM/LIM and TB plus APOC CAI. Plugs n wires, w/ SLP exhaust and TOG titanium ceramics on the way. When I got the SA stuff put in I noticed good gains, all top end though. The acceleration is hesitating though. Looking at picking up DHP soon.

[The Old Guy]

Originally posted by Craig99SE2
Exactly ... Sorry_Officer has headers which are good for between 15-20 by themselves! So, do the math and you have between 10-15HP from a P&P job!



Sorry_Officer's car is proof of what getting an engine to breathe properly can do for you.

Originally posted by Craig99SE2
Hence the even 10HP, 10ft-lb gain across the ENTIRE RPM band!

If you look at power curve charts you'll see guys picking up 10/10 at certain RPMs. Across the "entire band" is impressive. Getting the engine to flow is going to net you a greater gain from any future modification so IMHO it was money well spent.