Dyno Tune of Pro M MAF sensor [Archive]

The Old Guy

07-31-2003, 12:15 PM

The guys that attended GAP know that I went for a dyno tune of my Pro M MAF on the way up to Lansing. They spent 5 hours total, consisting of first making sure everything on my car was working correctly (found a split MAP coupler, disconnected my Jet Module since it would be redundent, and a few more things)

They flowed my stock meter, then set the calibrations into theirs. Then they dynoed with the stock sensor to get a comparison to their sensor. The results were pretty enlightening. The stock sensor was causing detonation throughout the lower power band, as compared to theirs which was perfectly smooth. We started having a problem with heat soak so we really coun't get any true readings of power gains, but I can definately feel the difference. You can see the detonation from the stock MAF in this dyno reading.

http://www.bright.net/~medinatech/dyno.jpg

I've had the meter on for about 1000 miles now without a glitch. Idle and acceleration is much smoother , but where I can actually see the gains is at the top. When I look at comparable time slips from previous runs with the stock MAF I'm seeing a little better than .10 sec gain from the 1000' mark to the 1/4 mile mark, and the runs are the same ET for the 1/4 with close to a .2 sec 60' difference for the worse. (track conditions at Milan were not th best)

Pro M has never had a 3.4 in their shop to properly calibrate the meter until now. They will be sending me a meter with the final calibration in the next few days since we ran out of time to have the final settings put into the one that is currently on my car.

As far as the "Boost Brothers" that are still using MAF, I spoke with them today and they said that they would enrichen the top end for boost applications, but you guys are better equipped to discuss this with them than I am.

I really can't say enough good things about these guys. They are truly interested in our cars and will work with you on getting it right. They are not a small operation by any means, I was in the building that hold the offices,dyno and flow benches. There is another building that does nothing but manufacture and test.

The tech that I have been working with is Damien. If you have any questions you can either call him at (248) 541-4780 or his email is Dfron@pro-flow.com.

jaketuff

07-31-2003, 12:27 PM

I can vouch for TOG's car. It runs a like a kitten now, especially at idle. You can barely hear any variation to the idle now, the sound is very monotone/consistent. Pro-M is known more for their work with our LS1 brothers and Mustangs. They seem to be very excited about our market, and can take the ball from where GMS/MM seems to be dropping it.

JOUT

Craig99SE2

07-31-2003, 03:08 PM

SO, for those of us that already have a GMS MAF, would they be willing to re-calibrate it? Even for a nominal fee would be acceptable ...

The Old Guy

07-31-2003, 05:23 PM

It won't cost you any more than a phone call or an email to find out. If it were me I'd call them. They're also in Michigan so I'd ask them what it would cost to drive there and have it tuned specifically for you car.

fast_ga

08-01-2003, 11:37 AM

Hey Tom how is it going? Wanted you ask you, you said your stock MAF was causing detonation, is that totally stock or did you have it ported out? Im asking because i have my stock MAF ported and polished out. I dont have any problems with idle or anything, but i know detonation i wouldnt really feal unless it was severe enough, i just want to make sure im not doing any damage with this thing!

jaketuff

08-01-2003, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by fast_ga
Hey Tom how is it going? Wanted you ask you, you said your stock MAF was causing detonation, is that totally stock or did you have it ported out? Im asking because i have my stock MAF ported and polished out. I dont have any problems with idle or anything, but i know detonation i wouldnt really feal unless it was severe enough, i just want to make sure im not doing any damage with this thing!

I believe that Tom's MAF was completely stock. At low Rpms there was moderate detonation. Not enough to perceive from listening... but it sure as heck shows up on the dyno. Bear in mind, they fully checked up Tom's car to make sure that all plugs/ignition/fuel were properly set up prior to running it.

When adding bolt-ons the detonation that occurs will be increased with more flow. It seems to be a complete MAF issue... really we don't need MAF/FPR... so tuning these things is all the more difficult. It looks like Pro-M has managed to smooth things out so far... and more work is ahead, right Tom?

Pat

The Old Guy

08-01-2003, 12:11 PM

My Maf was completely stock and as Pat said, the detonation will become more perceivable as you increase flow. I could only feel and hear a very slight "flutter" at idle with the sock MAF. As RPMs increase it smooths out too much to feel or hear it. The chart showing the detonation really turned my stomach when I saw it. I fried an engine in the late 70s because of detonation I couldn't feel (shoulda listened to my dad when he said there was a problem!)

I just got an email from Scott (the dyno tuner at Pro M) and he said that he's going to start doing more work on the new MAF on Monday. I sent him my stock meter and the stock airbox. He wants to get a reading on the stock MAF with the box and also one with the newly calibrated meter so he can see a comparison. He'll send me the flow charts so I can post them. I wrote him and told him that I think I'm running a little rich at the bottom and he said that the last tweak he did (which is not in the meter I currently have) leaned out the bottom and enriched the middle and top more.

This has been a major learning experience for me. I guess he can tweak the meter throughout the RPM band. They also showed me several other meters that they have there. There's a venturi design that can be tuned to our cars, a tunable MAF, and another that will hook to a PC so you can send custom calibrations into it.

It's worth the time if you live close enough to pay them a visit.

3400MAN

08-08-2003, 01:50 PM

You can order directly from Pro_M. It takes about 5 days for them to get you the caibrated MAF. Price was less than Granatelli too.

kubiache

08-08-2003, 09:37 PM

Tom, how much did all this cost you, if you don't mind my asking. Also, where in Michigan are they? And, I may be asking an old question that I missed somewhere along the line, but is Pro-M it's own company, having nothing to do with MM or GMS (so that now it would be a good thing to order direct from them)?

spartanmatt

08-08-2003, 09:39 PM

3400Man,

How much did the Pro_M run? I'm assuming they can tune for cold air?

The Old Guy

08-09-2003, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by kubiache
Tom, how much did all this cost you, if you don't mind my asking. Also, where in Michigan are they? And, I may be asking an old question that I missed somewhere along the line, but is Pro-M it's own company, having nothing to do with MM or GMS (so that now it would be a good thing to order direct from them)?

The MAF was around $279.00. The dyno tuning was completely free because Pro M wanted to get the model for the engine.

They are just outside of Detroit. Pro M is the manufacturer of the Mass Air Sensors. Granatelli and MM are only retailers. The original was a GMS MAF which was calibrated and made by Pro M, but to their specs not Pro M's. Now Pro M sells is units under their own name along with making MAFs for other companies.

Until this point they never had the opportunity to calibrate the MAF on the actual car.

It's now been over 2 weeks and the car has more punch than ever so I'm well pleased.

spartanmatt

08-09-2003, 09:23 AM

Thanks for the info..........I think I'll pick one up, considering my low end suffered with the borla exhaust and CAI. Plus, the headers should be arriving soon

3400MAN

08-12-2003, 09:02 AM

Same here, they charged me $279.00 as well. Mine should be here this week, but my car is currently in the shop.....

The Old Guy

08-12-2003, 09:40 AM

I spoke with Pro M today and they shipped my final re-calibrated MAF yesterday. I should have it today, but to tell you the truth I can't see how the car can run much better than it does already.

With only having the CAI, exhaust and MAF I'm impressed with the bottom end especially since with having an SE my final gear ratio is pretty high.

Hopefully he sent me the new flow sheets with it. If not I'll get in touch with him and I'm sure he'll email them to me.

3400MAN

08-12-2003, 12:53 PM

yea man, do that. I'd like to see what they finally came up with....can't wait to receive mine..

AaronGTR

08-12-2003, 06:30 PM

Where exactly in MI are they? I might have to look into going there for some MAF tuning.:)

Craig99SE2

08-12-2003, 06:38 PM

Coolidge and 10-1/2

OneQuickGT1

08-14-2003, 12:39 AM

Could I get their e-mail or web addy? I would be interested in sending them my granatelli and having them recal it.

Brett

Craig99SE2

08-14-2003, 07:45 AM

http://www.pro-flow.com

kubiache

08-14-2003, 09:32 AM

I didn't see it on the website, just all the LS1 stuff. Maybe I'm blind? I wrote Damien a couple days ago to try and order one, but no response yet.
3400MAN - how did you order yours?

The Old Guy

08-14-2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by The Old Guy
The tech that I have been working with is Damien. If you have any questions you can either call him at (248) 541-4780 or his email is Dfron@pro-flow.com.

Try calling him. The MAF for the 3.4 isn't listed yet.

3400MAN

08-15-2003, 08:51 AM

Yup, I called them and spoke with the receptionist who was aware of the procedure for Tom's car. She checked with some of the techs while Damien was out to see if they were done fine-tuning. I think they finished up a week ago on 8/8 and then began shipping.

Mine came yesterday and last night I installed mine. I see what you mean about smoothing out the idle. Mine sounds like a 60's speedboat. Ya know the type? Anyway, the car idles smoothly, once in a while it jumps a tad. Off the line it feels like there is something behind the air intake. It pulls a bit more, like the intake is stronger. I can feel something. After about 25 miles the car was already adjusting to it and the shifts (which was my biggest concern) are firm. Not sloppy like they have been with the stock MAF. I like it. I wan't to spend more time driving it to get a better feel. I lit em' up this morning something fierce with the Pro-M. It made my headers even more metallic sounding....:cool:

kubiache

08-15-2003, 09:36 AM

Hmmm...either nobody answers the phone, or the power is still out over there. I tried several times yesterday, and again just now. I WANT ONE NOW!!!

The Old Guy

08-15-2003, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by 3400MAN
Yup, I called them and spoke with the receptionist who was aware of the procedure for Tom's car. She checked with some of the techs while Damien was out to see if they were done fine-tuning. I think they finished up a week ago on 8/8 and then began shipping.

Mine came yesterday and last night I installed mine. I see what you mean about smoothing out the idle. Mine sounds like a 60's speedboat. Ya know the type? Anyway, the car idles smoothly, once in a while it jumps a tad. Off the line it feels like there is something behind the air intake. It pulls a bit more, like the intake is stronger. I can feel something. After about 25 miles the car was already adjusting to it and the shifts (which was my biggest concern) are firm. Not sloppy like they have been with the stock MAF. I like it. I wan't to spend more time driving it to get a better feel. I lit em' up this morning something fierce with the Pro-M. It made my headers even more metallic sounding....:cool:

I'm glad to hear it! My new one should be here today. The idle will smooth out even more and the car will run noticeably better after 200 miles or so. The shifts are the biggest thing I noticed when I went back to the stock MAF a few days ago. The car feels like it's made of lead right now and I remember when I thought it ran good with the stock MAF. I almost don't want to drive it until I get the new one back!!

I think their phones must be down because I can't reach them either.

Craig99SE2

08-15-2003, 09:56 AM

Yeah, they are a mile away from me and I have no power yet. Thank goodness my work has a generator! Hot coffee and the internet ... what more could you ask for in a blackout?! ;)

The Old Guy

08-15-2003, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by Craig99SE2
Yeah, they are a mile away from me and I have no power yet. Thank goodness my work has a generator! Hot coffee and the internet ... what more could you ask for in a blackout?! ;)

I can think of a few more things!!;)

Craig99SE2

08-15-2003, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by The Old Guy
I can think of a few more things!!;)

Yeah, but I'm at work ... remember!?!? :D

(and I still have the internet!)

The Old Guy

08-16-2003, 11:03 AM

I received the MAF with the new calibration yesterday and got it on the car this morning. The car started right up without any problem and idled smoothly right from the beginning which hasn't been the case on some of the earlier calibrations. 3400MAN described it correctly, the exhaust has a nice thump to it.

I did a 10 mile test run and was very pleased. Shifting is much firmer (anytime you disconnect the battery your shifts will become firmer for a while until the PCM adjusts) but in this case they are MUCH firmer. The torque is definately increased and the acceleration is constant with no dead spots or points where the car will surge.

The final test was on a hill that is about a 30% grade for about a half mile. Normally with the stock MAF the car will downshift if you set the cruise to 50 MPH fom 3rd down to 2nd. I ran the hill at constant 50 with no downshift at all. I made a second run at the same hill at 50 without the cruise keeping constant pressure on the accelerator pedal. Normally the car will slow to 35, but it didn't drop below about 42 for the entire grade.

I figure after about 200 miles the improvement will be more noticeable. Now I think the next natural step would be a ported throttle body and upper intake to take advantage of the increased air flow.

Overall now that the four month ordeal of trying to get a MAF that's properly calibrated is resolved I have to say that the final outcome was well worth the effort. :thumbs:

kubiache

08-16-2003, 07:16 PM

Damn glad to hear it, Tom.

clark75

08-17-2003, 11:01 AM

That's awesome, this may very well be my next purchase!

Brad

08-17-2003, 02:43 PM

You make us old people proud Tom with all this high-tech experimentation you are doing! Good job! Sounds like I know what my next GA improvement is going to be.

By the way... how is gas mileage affected by this thing? Ever measured it?

Brad

The Old Guy

08-17-2003, 06:10 PM

I haven't had the latest calibration on long enough yet. I've put about 100 miles on since I put it in and the PCM seems to be adjusting to it very well. The bigget thing I notic is just how smooth it runs.

I did check the mileage with the MAF just before this one and I was getting about 26 - 28 MPG with a 70/30% city vs highway so that's pretty respectible. On the way back from GAP with the first generation MAF I got 32 MPG so I figure this one should be right around there.

On a personal note......good to see you back on here buddy!!!

Brad

08-17-2003, 06:32 PM

Thanks for the observations Tom. My car does have a little roughness to the idle that I'd like to cure. It's better in cooler weather, so I am wondering if the fuel or MAF is off just a little bit. Glad it's working out well for you.

Yeah, I'm still around, just working three jobs now instead of just two!!! Got frustrated with my old job and resigned. So far happy with the new job, but have to have another one along with it as I couldn't find a 40 hour position open. Keeps it really hectic and not much time for the internet.

I am still working on the Firebird project-- been 2 months in the body shop getting the full treatment on the body and paint. Then comes new rims, interior re-do, trans and engine rebuild... the list goes on! Brad
:)

Vinaashak

08-20-2003, 08:54 AM

Any idea on wether or not this will work on the 3100?

The Old Guy

08-20-2003, 12:23 PM

I really don't know for sure, but if the stock MAF from a 3100 is identical to the one for a 3400 I would guess that it would....

jaketuff

08-20-2003, 01:51 PM

Good stuff Tom!!! I am sure that this could improve my idle as well... But I am sure I would need a custom tune for the most benefit w/ my SC. I hope that you acquire more power throughout the powertrain from this work... seems that it allows you most advantage from the CAI/Catback/PnPing aside from a full blown PCM tuning. I am looking forward to the new MPG figure when you get a chance to deduce that.

:thumbs:

Pat

The Old Guy

08-20-2003, 02:40 PM

Thanks Pat! It seems to pull better through out, but until I get a timeslip I won't be able to really tell how much better. If I were in your shoes I would definately do the custom tune. If you decide to go up, you can just give me a call and spend the nite here and drive the rest of the way the next morning....about 3 hours.

I'm hitting the track tonite. I'm not sure if I'll pull any great numbers though. It's 81 with 50% humidity right now. I have to get there tonite anyway because I dropped out of the Top 10 in points since I haven't been to the track since GAP and I'd love to finish up the season in the Top 10 at least once before I get too old to race!! My buddy has an bone stock Alero that he runs brackets in so I'll be able to get a pretty good idea how it's running in comparison to his.

Craig99SE2

08-20-2003, 05:50 PM

Tom,

How different is the "new" tune compared to the "old" tune that Muscle Motors was selling? Just curious if it is worth the time and money to get a re-cal now that I already have the GMS with the original Pro-M cal.

iceman

08-20-2003, 06:46 PM

Order from Pro M - contact info above.

The Old Guy

08-20-2003, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by Craig99SE2
Tom,

How different is the "new" tune compared to the "old" tune that Muscle Motors was selling? Just curious if it is worth the time and money to get a re-cal now that I already have the GMS with the original Pro-M cal.

They're not even close. The way this all started was with me getting the Pro M from Muscle Motors and not being happy with it. From what Damien at Pro M told me, they didin't come up with the calibration themselves, they were just calibrating to Muscle Motor specs. When they look at the MM calibration and the one they just finalized, there's no compairison. I can feel a big differnece between the two, plus the car runs so smooth from idle through the entire RPM band. There is absolutly no flutter at idle.

I ran at the track tonite, which probably was a waste of time since it was so hot and humid. My 60's are terrible, which in reality isn't such a bad thing since they're bad because I can't get a hook at all. I have no choice but to change the tires and suspension if I want it to hook. My car sits really high in the rear and from a pic they took tonite, my rear fender opening drops down about an inch below the top of the tire when I launch. The good news is that I'm picking up about .10 sec at the top of the track from the 1/8 to the 1/4 when I compare the slips with previous runs.

spartanmatt

08-22-2003, 04:50 PM

TOG,

Thanks for the info. I just recieved my Pro_M MAF today (thanks to your custom tune) and I couldn't be happier. The low end has been bumped up considerably (which suffered after the installation of CAI & Exhaust), idle is MUCH smoother, and the top end seems to lag much less. Hopefully after a few more days of driving, the PCM will adjust accordingly and all the bugs will be out of it.

Again, Thanks for the detailed info

loudalero

08-25-2003, 05:47 AM

Well I wil ask stupid queston. I was wondering is this a larger maf and would this work in my alero that has the 3400 with a cai, slp exhaust and headers soon

The Old Guy

08-25-2003, 05:51 AM

The answer is yes to everything.

OneQuickGT1

08-25-2003, 09:01 AM

Can anyone tell me exactly how to order this? I keep e-mailing them to no avail!! Thanks!

Brett

The Old Guy

08-25-2003, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by The Old Guy
The tech that I have been working with is Damien. If you have any questions you can either call him at (248) 541-4780 or his email is Dfron@pro-flow.com.

99alero

09-02-2003, 10:22 AM

this is great because my car does run a little rough at idle and my shifts are a little hard. I was gunna get the ASE chip but if this corrects some problems im gettin this first!

clark75

09-02-2003, 03:29 PM

and the shifts (which was my biggest concern) are firm. Not sloppy like they have been with the stock MAF. I like it.

To quote 3400MAN's post on pg 2.

It appears this firms up the shifts, rather than smoothing them out.

pritch-gt1

09-03-2003, 04:27 PM

what exactly is the maf calibrated for? well, what I really want to know is if I get other mods will I need to have it recalibrated. right now I have a cai and s&s headers on the car. would that need a different calibration from a na car with just a cai?

The Old Guy

09-03-2003, 04:35 PM

No you wouldn't. The only difference will be whether it's cold air calibrated or warm air calibrated. If you went S/C you would have to have a different calibration.

AaronGTR

09-05-2003, 11:19 PM

I'll deffinitly be talking to them about a calibration for SC'd cars. The way my car's running I think some kind of tuning is needed. It probably won't happen until november though when I get laid off for the winter. When that happens I'll have plenty of time to go talk to them and test my car.:)

SikMindz

09-08-2003, 04:11 AM

Just wanted to clear something up as this looks like something worthwhile to get in a month or so. I'm running a CAI with a 7" S&B cone filter (inverted I think) and NO MAF screen. I've got other mods but after reading this thread it doesn't seem like they'd matter much in relation to the tuning of the GMS MAF. However, will the absence of the MAF screen and running the inverted cone filter cause noticeable problems (read: reasons I SHOULDN'T purchase the MAF) with this product?

loudalero

09-23-2003, 01:05 AM

Well I tried to order this today and they wanted to charge me 414 for this, but i did not talk to daimen but some dave guy that didn't even know that they made these for the alero and grand am. So i had to give him all the info from there site and then he said that they were 414 dollars so i will have to think about this because thats alot of cash for a maf.

nnewton123

10-15-2003, 01:46 PM

anybody else try to order one of these recently?

loudalero

10-15-2003, 09:35 PM

Yeah i did end up ordering it because i got it for the regular price because they had already made it so they wanted to get ride of it but I installed it and a week later an ses light came on and it said that it was runing rich and now I noticed that the light had gone out but then when I was wacthing today it looks like the bulb is blown because it does not light up period and I was so happy it was gone though.

zeddsdead

10-17-2003, 12:45 PM

so how's the light?

and what is "regular" price?

loudalero

10-17-2003, 09:44 PM

Well I looked at it again and the bulb is not blown so that makes me happy that it went away but seems a little weird but I guess I will get over it and wait to get the headers on to see what will happen and I really need to find a 62mm tb someehre but no where has one instock.

99alero

10-18-2003, 01:58 AM

did you try FDP Performance?

loudalero

10-18-2003, 11:53 AM

Yep and he said that he would let me know when more came in so then I just have to wait. Its just becoming one big waiting game for anything for my car.

3400MAN

10-20-2003, 03:42 PM

Tom (Old Guy). Would there be any difference (hypothetically) between a calibration for a 3.4 SE and a 3.4GT? In other words, would there be something different that Pro-M might do if they had a test car (GT) at their facility? I can't think of what would be different. Anyone have any thoughts?

The reason I ask, is that I swear that the Pro-M MAF has made me slower than I was with my stock one. This is based on the use of G-Tech Pro accelerometer and my butt dyno. I have gone from 14.89 sec. to as much as 15.4 sec. with slip. Although acceleration is smoother and my idle is more calm. I am experiencing more tire slip with the Pro-M. Can't tell if that's the need to change my tires or from the low end calibrating from the Pro-M MAF. My stock MAF with a 50 psi (Adj. FPR) ran rougher, but I swear faster.

If I were to go to the track and run 2-3 times with my stock MAF, then swap it out for the Pro-M am I going to experience the slushy shifts and poor response I normally feel with the battery unplugged for 30 min. ? That would not help the comparison. The Pro-M helped my shifting quite alot. I am wondering if I can swap back and forth for different runs to figure out if my theory is correct. You saw 1/10 or 2/10ths of a second difference with the recalibrated one right? I'm wondering if I gained anything.

Sorry if my thoughts are quite straight on this, I'm at work right now...

The Old Guy

10-20-2003, 04:45 PM

You are experiencing exactly the same thing I did. Initially my 60' times went up by as much as .2 seconds and my launches were terrible. I swapped out my MAF several times during the summer and got better times with the stock MAF until I finally bit the bullet and decided to learn to drive it with the Pro M.

I turned a 15.52 two weeks ago in 70 degree weather with a 2.2 60' which is my personal best. And last Wednesday I was running consistant 15.5s to 15.6s. so I'm pleased with it since I was usually at 15.7s to 15.8s before.

There should be no difference between an SE to a GT since it's just the tranny that's different in the two, but I would imagine your low end difference would be a little more dramatic because of it and cause even more tire spin.

iceman

10-20-2003, 08:17 PM

Since you mentioned it... care to share your launching technique if you can Tom ?

The Old Guy

10-20-2003, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by iceman
Since you mentioned it... care to share your launching technique if you can Tom ?

Actually it's something I learned from Pat (JakeTuff) when I rode down the track with him at GAP this summer. I'm not power torquing at the start of the lights. Just before the last yellow I'm taking it up to about 1500 RPM and feathering until a little after I break the beam and then I hit WOT. It took me about 10 trips to the track to finally get it down to where I can launch the same no matter what the track conditions are.

It's pretty hard to describe because it's more of a "feel" but I don't let the tires break loose at all. I got my 60 down to 2.2 and on a few runs down to a 2.17 from the 2.4's I was getting after I went to the new MAF.

This is the first front wheel drive car I've ever raced and also the first automatic tranny, so old habits die hard!