Everyone talks about heads... but what about...

[5-lO]

Well Ive noticed everyone has been talking about getting their heads ported. I think its a great Idea, even though I am hearing conflicting numbers on power and torque. But no big deal as long as it speeds me up.

But my point... what about internals? I have yet to see pistons, rods, piston rings, etc for our cars? Is there any higher power internals available for our cars? I want to (notice Im not saying "am going to" right now its just a want... or dream :p) pull the engine out Summer of 2005 and swap the internals. Im sure by then aftermarker support for GAs will be amazing, but what is out there today? I figure with all internals replaced plus everyother NA mod out there you could get the 3400 up into, maybe, 300hp 300+ TQ. Thats a guess though. Just curiuos as to whats out there.

Also, does anyone know cam profiles? I dont understand cams at all. Can anyone point me to a good resource to explain what the profile numbers mean and how to choose thebest profiel for your application?

Thanks
Jon

[PontiacGT2K]

AllMotor did internals....hahahahahhahahaha...sorry

I've heard of a few guys doing it...but most parts must be ordered custom. Check 60degreev6.com for more info on modifying internals, they've got everything on there.

[5-lO]

So there no company unless you want to spend phatty to get it made?

Jon

[bszopi]

You can get some internals from companies, but don't expect much without paying for it. The biggest internal mod to do would be the pistons (ok, well the cam also, but we'll start with pistons). Currently, you can get aftermarket pistons for your engine for different bore sizes (.020, .040, .060, etc..), but don't expect much gains from that. You can boost compression some with other pistons that are readily available (companies such as Sealed Power), but you are still somewhat limited. if you want to get the best bang for the buck, custom is the only way to go. And its not that much more expensive... you can get a set of forged pistons in almost any configuration you want from Ross Racing (as well as others) for around $600.

As far as rods go, you can use pre-67 327SBC rods with alittle machining. They have the same journal diameter as our current rods, but are available in beefier setups. I'm pretty sure Crower can do the neccessary mods to get them to work. Otherwise, any machine shop should be able to do it without much problem.

As far as the cams go, check past issues of Hot Rod, Car Craft, etc to read up on the basics. One of the 2 (I get both, so I can't remember which one) just did an excellent article that went through and discussed what each term meant, benefits and downfalls of different numbers/setups, etc... As far as what is available for our engines, well... I've got it. For right now (and for anywhere in the near future), a regrind is the best you are going to get. You are slightly limited to the type of profile you can get (considering you have to go from the stock profile), but with the right tinkering, you can get a pretty decent setup. I wish I had done more research before I got mine done, but oh well... maybe next time. I still have a spare 3100 sitting in the garage awaiting a buildup....

[PontiacGT2K]

So if someone were to do cam on a 3400, matched with heads, headers, full exhaust, and a few other things here and there, plus a dyno tune of course....what specs would you suggest on the cam? Up until reading that I was under the impression cam did nothing for the 3x00.

[mfuller]

The bottom-end of the 3400 is actually quite stout....unless of course, you plan on major boost or juicing the bejesus out of it. Regardless, bad tuning (or downright stupidity) kills more engines than any other mod you can dream of.

Brad knows his stuff regarding the 60 degree V6, so I'll defer to him. You can (and likely will) see substantial gains with a hot cam in this motor - with proper valvetrain mods and tuning, of course.

[bszopi]

Here is a thread from the past week when we were discussing cams for the 3x00s...

http://discussions.gmforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=40911

[PontiacGT2K]

Good call...thanks brad.

[bszopi]

If I can find some past articles on cams, I'll see if I can't scan in some parts of it and post it somewhere. I know I have at least 3 articles on them, I just have to figure out where they are....

[jaketuff]

As always the cam is a compromise in this car. You should easily be able to make power with a more aggressive cam. However, you will see downsides as well - MPG, idle, etc. The cam in the car is designed for bottom end and that's about it. It's pretty obvious GM can get a lot more power out of a 3400. But a smooth idle, low end grunt, and MPG have been just a few of the constraints that limit the final product.

Thrasher (and a few others) makes cams for the 3800. I heard one at the GAP on a GP. It ran and drove like an animal. Very aggressive performer, powerful tone. Check into those products and see how the 3800's have fared... I know it's a different motor - but you can get a good indicator from them of what results could be.

.02
OUT

[PontiacGT2K]

I've heard plenty of cam-swaps on LT1's and LS1's....they make the car sound beastly, but they always idle funny until dyno tune. Unless you're willing to do dyno tune, heads, and everythign else that goes with cam.....it's not worth the swap.

[5-lO]

Everyone is so informative here, gotta love it. I did not know that getting pistons done custom were so cheap? Thats crazy especially since a new cam runs like 1200 doesnt it? Also, its not possible to get cam "stock" and get that grinded down into a custom profile? You MUST use a stock 3400 cam? What about swaps from other 3.4l Engines? I know the, dare I say, ric,ers do SUV swaps, such as cams from a k24 into a k20 (if you know your honda engines!)

Jon

[mfuller]

Originally posted by Free03GT
I did not know that getting pistons done custom were so cheap? Thats crazy especially since a new cam runs like 1200 doesnt it? Also, its not possible to get cam "stock" and get that grinded down into a custom profile? You MUST use a stock 3400 cam? What about swaps from other 3.4l Engines? I know the, dare I say, ric,ers do SUV swaps, such as cams from a k24 into a k20 (if you know your honda engines!)

Jon
I wouldn't say that custom pistons are cheap; to get them done right you'll spend $500 or more for custom pistons/wrist pins to work with your stock con rods. The upside is the cost usually includes new rings.
You can get a stock cam re-ground for less than $200; a completely new cam machined from billet would cost the small fortune you are eluding to.
It's not the cost of the parts that kills you, it's the labor costs to install them (and tune the car to work with them).
The GM 3400 is not quite so "modular"; there are precious few GM parts from other motors that will swap right in. Same goes for the 4T40/45.

[bszopi]

Because of the design of the cam, these engines are the only ones that use it. So yeah, unless you spend the $800+ on a custom cam, you have to start from the stock profile and go from there. The pistons are so cheap because they already have a basic slug to go off of, and they just modify it from there. If a cam company made cores for these engines, then custom cams would only be around $350 or so. But since none of them make the cores, we are stuck with full-off custom jobs. One of the reasons that we are screwed is because of the cam position sensor. If that hunk of metal wasn't on there, then a core would most likely be easier to come by.

If you really want to get into the engines, I would recommend heading over to GMForums and the 60º V6 forums. There are alot of guys over there more knowledgable than me that don't visit the other forums (like this). And as odd as it may seem to some of you, some of the most highly modded 60V6s aren't in GAs. While you are over there, skim some of the old threads about engine buildups, cams, etc... I am just barely breaking the surface over here with the amount of info that is over there about what you are trying to learn about.

[fschambe]

Originally posted by Free03GT
Everyone is so informative here, gotta love it. I did not know that getting pistons done custom were so cheap? Thats crazy especially since a new cam runs like 1200 doesnt it? Also, its not possible to get cam "stock" and get that grinded down into a custom profile? You MUST use a stock 3400 cam? What about swaps from other 3.4l Engines? I know the, dare I say, ric,ers do SUV swaps, such as cams from a k24 into a k20 (if you know your honda engines!)

Jon

Are you talking about k24a OR k24b AND k20a or b? We got TSX w/variable intake (i-VTEC) vs CRV with dog doodoo and then RSX/s vs. Civic SI

[5-lO]

K20a and then just a cam off of a K24 in general. From what Ive read (yes I read import ric,er err i mean racer :p) you can get good power out of that swap. Agian these are just things Ive read, I dont necassarily believe it. Especially since... its ri,ce!

The new TSX is nice, I prefer the RSX Type-S though. 200 Crank out of a 4... jsut crazy

[Ghostrider]

I would like to go to town on my engine and squeeze ever last HP out of it but until we are able to do something with the tranny it will all be for nothing. With small amount of mods that are available now for our engines guys are tearing the transmission up. I dont plan on doing anything major with my engine until something happens here.

[5-lO]

Go 5 Speed. Let the power go to the clutch. I know John (Aleroboy) had a 5 speed kit in the works. Hes got it on hold though, he wants to reinforce (sp?) his slushbox first. Thats probably what Ill do after I pay off the car (I only have to pay 6000 on a 24k car, what a deal :)) in 2005 when the warranty is up and when I *hopefully* can go all out on the GA.

[kubiache]

Let's remember something of relevance, though. Jason Wilkes (n4cer) and the rest of the GP guys all make a good point to me: GPs have all these parts available for them right now...BUT, the current model (ex. '04) GPs have been around 2 years longer than our current GAs, and the parts for GPs are just NOW coming out. If you're in a hurry, do your custom thing, otherwise, give it time, the parts will come, it just takes time and interest on our part. And as is always the case, a bunch of people saying "I'll buy it" and then not following through is always going to hold us back.

[Knappy1]

Originally posted by Ghostrider
I would like to go to town on my engine and squeeze ever last HP out of it but until we are able to do something with the tranny it will all be for nothing. With small amount of mods that are available now for our engines guys are tearing the transmission up. I dont plan on doing anything major with my engine until something happens here.

Actually, there are only a couple of guys that have had tranny problems...the only 2 I can think of right now are Kman and Jaketuff, and they are both boosted. On the other hand, Spaz and Aleroboy are both squeezing crazy power out of thier cars w/o any tranny problems. It's a gamble, but why worry about it until it blows? I'm not concerned about the trans yet.:D

[Lash]

Originally posted by Free03GT
I figure with all internals replaced plus everyother NA mod out there you could get the 3400 up into, maybe, 300hp 300+ TQ.


Whooooahh!!!

Thats one hell of a goal!!! I hope you have alot of $$ to get that much power N/A!!!

More power to ya!!:thumbs:

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by Knappy1
Actually, there are only a couple of guys that have had tranny problems...the only 2 I can think of right now are Kman and Jaketuff, and they are both boosted. On the other hand, Spaz and Aleroboy are both squeezing crazy power out of thier cars w/o any tranny problems. It's a gamble, but why worry about it until it blows? I'm not concerned about the trans yet.:D

The "guys" I'm referring to are not on this board. They are some dude's I've known from around here. One of my friends has trashed his tranny 3 times already and has finally dropped down his boost and another has his in the shop now. I know of 4 around here with transmission problems. Two run the RSM SC (I think with nitrous also), one runs a custom turbo (the one whose tranny went 3 times), and the other ran nitrous but I think he goes a little nuts because he's also trashed his engine too.

[mfuller]

Originally posted by Knappy1
On the other hand, Spaz and Aleroboy are both squeezing crazy power out of thier cars w/o any tranny problems. It's a gamble, but why worry about it until it blows? *offtopic*
I think the only reason John's (Aleroboy) tranny hasn't puked it's guts out is because of the high (5800 ft.) elevation he runs at. Thinner air = less power.

And Spaz's car is just a freak, but I don't think anyone except Spaz himself (and maybe Jaketuff) know about all the other little "improvements" he's done just tinkering around.