Another toy has arrived.......getting close to install. [Archive] - GrandAmGT.com Forum

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Sorry_Officer
09-23-2002, 11:13 AM
Well my titanium ceramic coated headers from APOC (The Other Guys) have arrived. That is the second to final toy I need to start installation of my engine project. I just need to show the shop who is doing my heads and lower intake manifold the headers and the header gasket to see if they can do anything further with the exhaust ports on the heads. Those should be done mid week. Then all I need to take delivery on is my Stage 2 upper and 62mm throttle body from APOC, which should be the end of the week. Then.........install time. It should take around 15 hours max from start to finish to swap all upper engine components and install the headers which will probably be pretty painless considering the top of the engine will not be in the way. So I plan to have this baby smoking tires by October 1st. It will hopefully be dynoed on the 2nd and I will be going down to the chicago meet on the 5th in shaumberg.

So just updating everyone.......I will have pics of all of the peices soon.

Sternie
09-23-2002, 11:36 AM
Sounds great, I can't wait to see some numbers!

Tony

mfuller
09-23-2002, 11:48 AM
I received my headers this morning also; they're being installed tomorrow. *Vroom, vroom* :thumbs:

Sorry_Officer
09-23-2002, 01:24 PM
I unfortunately will not being installing my headers tommorrow. I have to wait for my heads to get done :( I just saw them though and they look good. They are almost complete but now that they have the headers and gaskets they are going to open up the roof of the D shape on the heads. They are keeping the D shape but there is a little bit in the top of the D and on the side that can be removed. Then all they have to do is polish the exhaust port down. They even narrowed the guides a little. Overall the heads look drastically different and I can't wait to get them installed:D

Waiting sure does suck.:(

black99gt
09-23-2002, 01:39 PM
Head to the track fellas.

Im looking forward to the results.

MidwestJosh
09-23-2002, 01:55 PM
Hopefully both of you guys come to the Chicago meet. I'd love to see all the new mods! I might not have my car, but I'll hopefully be there. Can't wait to see that dyno sheet:D

papiogagt
09-23-2002, 02:35 PM
i have a question for you sorry officer.. it's about the apoc stage II intake manifold. what is the diff between this one and the street arsenal and through apoc, the final price after getting the core back woudl only be $25 right. cuz it says' $125 then a $100 core that they return. am i understanding this right. and also, i am wandering the same aobut the TB also. i am looking into both apoc's and SA's, so if anyone knows the differences, let me know! thanks!

aleroboy
09-23-2002, 02:49 PM
Final cost is 125, core is not included in price tag.
We have you sned a check for the core cost. And the check isn't cashed unlees core is not returned. So we just hold yourt check.

papiogagt
09-23-2002, 02:51 PM
oh, i get it! thanks alot.. sorry for sounding like a :newbie: there! anyone know the differences between SA and APOC? thanks for the help!

jaketuff
09-23-2002, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by papiogagt
oh, i get it! thanks alot.. sorry for sounding like a :newbie: there! anyone know the differences between SA and APOC? thanks for the help!

Regarding the manifolds...... the APOC will be better because it has a larger TB than SA. So flow thru on the APOC mani's/TB means more HP/TQ.

JOUT

mfuller
09-24-2002, 05:58 AM
A few off-car pic of ceramic-coated TOG headers...Enjoy; thses are being installed as I type this. :thumbs:

mfuller
09-24-2002, 05:58 AM
Second...

mfuller
09-24-2002, 06:00 AM
Last one...

Sorry_Officer
09-24-2002, 06:27 AM
Hey fuller..........those gaskets you received with the header we found out their is a top and a bottom on each one. If they are put the wrong way they overlap a smidge on the top of the primary. If you put it right side up it fits flawlessly. Just giving you a heads up because even my performance shop guy said the gasket was off until we switched them and flipped them around:rolleyes: They are only offset by a little bit so it would be easy to install them the wrong way.

Sorry_Officer
09-24-2002, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by MidwestJosh
Hopefully both of you guys come to the Chicago meet. I'd love to see all the new mods! I might not have my car, but I'll hopefully be there. Can't wait to see that dyno sheet:D


I will be there on the 5th. My car is getting dropped off at the shop friday and will be done no later than tuesday.

mfuller
09-24-2002, 06:34 AM
Thanks; I have alerted my mechanic.

mfuller
09-24-2002, 05:29 PM
Okay, gang...I snapped a couple of (bad) pics of them installed:

http://www.n-body.net/registry/mfuller/P9240046.JPG

http://www.n-body.net/registry/mfuller/P9240045.JPG

First impressions? Well, the car is not nearly as loud as I was imagining (based on hearing John's car over the telephone), but it has a nasty snarl to it. Yeah, there's some more power to it, but it really doesn't hit ya that hard until 3000rpm, and then you get shoved into the seatback pretty good. There is quite a bit of resonance between 1500 and 2500rpm, and you feel it through the gas pedal. It easily accelerates harder than a '92 Mustang GT 5-speed that I also have in my possession for a while. No SES lights yet; I am still using my Random Technology cat - I just chopped off the downpipe.

AROD2000
09-24-2002, 07:19 PM
What was the total amount of time for your mechanics install?

jaketuff
09-24-2002, 07:51 PM
Hit the track! I still have the Street and Strip Headers on order... Don't know when I will install them... :rolleyes:

(Let us know the time of install)

Pat

mfuller
09-24-2002, 08:10 PM
It took my mechanic all of 6 hours to install them.

jaketuff
09-24-2002, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by mfuller
It took my mechanic all of 6 hours to install them.

Not too bad at all... Is he an expert mechanic? Or more of the average guy... that seems very fast to me...

Pat

mfuller
09-24-2002, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by jaketuff


Not too bad at all... Is he an expert mechanic? Or more of the average guy... that seems very fast to me...

Pat
He's an expert....I told him to take his time and not rush...:thumbs:

Sorry_Officer
09-24-2002, 08:56 PM
Damn........:D Too bad I couldn't install the headers and then install my heads and mani's and 62mm throttle body just so i could feel the difference with every mod.........

Oh well you will just have to give me a ride in the alero next week.

bszopi
09-24-2002, 09:32 PM
Nice...

My thoughts are: with my cam regrind, I already have a burst of power at 3k and above, so would this ONCE AGAIN cripple my low-end and just improve my high end? I still have this feeling that some of my low end losses are due to improper ECM tuning, whcih will hopefully be correct soon. But, this still brings up a question...

Has anyone (ok, Matt or John) noticed a decrease in low end performance? If you decrease your low-end, the gain at the high end isn't going to help your times at the track that much. Sure, your MPH at the end MIGHT be faster, but your times will be hampered by the longer time required to get off the line due to the loss of low end. Now, if you change the TC so that you can harness the high-end gain sooner, I can see advantages, but right now, I'm still a little skeptical.

And someone was wondering where all the people bad-mouthing the TOG headers were? I'm still here..... :wave:

Vegeta
09-24-2002, 10:10 PM
Hehehe, way to go brad:) I gave up...no one is gonna make a set like I described so they will never know what they are missing. Oh wait...that low end...yeah they are missin that right now. Thats what happens when the primaries aren't long enough. Yeah yeah..i know.

aleroboy
09-25-2002, 12:30 AM
actually my car has a pretty good bottom end. At least throttle response.

mfuller
09-25-2002, 06:09 AM
In my 2 hours of seat time with the headers, I can say I have not noticed a decrease in low-end; rather, it seems quite a bit stronger (it is easier to break the grip of my Potenza S-03's - something I couldn't do before). While I agree that equal-length primaries are more desireable, I don't think it can be done in the tight constraints of the GMX130 platform (current N-body). Ben and Brad, maybe you have more room to work in your engine compartments, in which case you might have a better chance at equal-length primaries. Plus, you both seem to know what you're doing, so I'm sure you can do a good job.
I know DIY'ers are a tough crowd, but if there's a solution out there with a full warranty and produces favorable gains, why not use it? I dunno; I guess my time is worth more to me (or I'm just lazy - probably both). :rolleyes:

Sorry_Officer
09-25-2002, 06:56 AM
Actually (for those skeptical), my performance shop guy who is doing my head work has my headers from TOG to do work on the exhaust ports. He looked at them (consideing he has a full machine shop and produces small block v8's on the side and has a 9 second 69' Camaro SS that is a daily driver) and he thought with what TOG had to work with they really had no other options. At least to make a set of headers that don't cost $1500.00 in raw form. He said the headers looked real good as far as primary size and overall setup of the dump points. He also mentioned construction of the headers were among the best he has ever seen. The flange is huge and the measurments were almost exact on every primary. The inside dumps he said were all real clean transitions and he said they look really heavy duty. I mantioned the tube lengths to him and he simply replied, headers are headers, some people want to squeeze that extra HP out of everything when you aren't going to notice the difference in HP anyways. I also told him John form APOC gained 17-18 WHP, he was surprised and said that was an enormous amount of HP to gain from headers especially for a V6.

Some people just are too critical sometimes.....ohh and if you look at S&S headers for the 3800, they look like almost the same design as TOG's 3400.............hmmm, maybe this IS all we have to work with.......

bszopi
09-25-2002, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by mfuller
In my 2 hours of seat time with the headers, I can say I have not noticed a decrease in low-end; rather, it seems quite a bit stronger (it is easier to break the grip of my Potenza S-03's - something I couldn't do before). While I agree that equal-length primaries are more desireable, I don't think it can be done in the tight constraints of the GMX130 platform (current N-body). Ben and Brad, maybe you have more room to work in your engine compartments, in which case you might have a better chance at equal-length primaries. Plus, you both seem to know what you're doing, so I'm sure you can do a good job.
I know DIY'ers are a tough crowd, but if there's a solution out there with a full warranty and produces favorable gains, why not use it? I dunno; I guess my time is worth more to me (or I'm just lazy - probably both). :rolleyes:

Ok, that answers my question. All I was really asking was if you noticed a decrease in low-end, I just continued to go on about disadvantages of losing low-end. I'm like that sometimes. :rolleyes:

As far as having more room.... Ben might, but I sure don't. I fact, I might have less room than the N-bodies! But here is a thought.... doesn't it seem possible to shorten the length of the crossover and therefore lengthen the front primaries? You could do the same with the rear also, just have the primaries extent under the car. Ok, so this now makes connecting the 2 pieces together harder (or does it?), and further under the car, but the length would become closer to ideal. I know that I and one other person are looking into doing this possibly with a set of S&S Headers, so we'll just see how it works out.

I still have a problem with the non-D-shaped port also, but I won't go into that...

Sorry_Officer
09-25-2002, 09:51 AM
You know until I walked back into their machine shop and saw literally like 60+ pairs of heads all from different kinds of motors. i was surprised to see almost every one of them had D shaped or rectangle shaped exhaust ports. Which meaning most cars they do make headers example, LS1's and LT1's, have also oddball shaped exhaust ports. BUT I do not see other header companies like Hooker and Edlebrock, SLP making oddball port matched headers. So having the headers D shaped obviously doesn't do much otherwise big name header companies would be making them, and I also bet you S&S uses 1 1/2" primaries as well with non D shaped ports.

mfuller
09-25-2002, 10:10 AM
Well, I've discovered my first negative effect of headers...

My gas mileage has gone down.....mostly due to the nut behind the wheel - my foot is deep into the throttle all the time. I think the car's getting stronger as the PCM gets used to the greater airflow. My car is still as quiet as stock at idle (!) but get into it, well.....I don't know of any other V6's that sound better.

bszopi
09-25-2002, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Sorry_Officer
Which meaning most cars they do make headers example, LS1's and LT1's, have also oddball shaped exhaust ports. BUT I do not see other header companies like Hooker and Edlebrock, SLP making oddball port matched headers.

You really should do research before you say stuff like that....

http://www.slponline.com/view_product.asp?PARTNUMBER=30030&SHOWIMAGE=On&SHOWEMAIL=Off

The pics of the headers aren't very clear, but the gaskets are. SLP does in fact make D-shaped port headers. I'm sure I can look into Edelbrock also if you'd like....

bszopi
09-25-2002, 10:57 AM
Oops... research prevails again. I guess you just picked the wrong companies or something!!

http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/ES/ESHHSCH/Emission.html

Ok, so it seems that Hooker makes D-shaped ports also. Hmm... where is says "Port Shape" and reads SAP - SAME AS PORT.

I dunno, maybe you are right. The other companies that mass produce headers figure there is no gain in having the tubing the same shape as the exhaust port.

Sorry_Officer
09-25-2002, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by mfuller
Well, I've discovered my first negative effect of headers...

My gas mileage has gone down.....mostly due to the nut behind the wheel - my foot is deep into the throttle all the time. I think the car's getting stronger as the PCM gets used to the greater airflow. My car is still as quiet as stock at idle (!) but get into it, well.....I don't know of any other V6's that sound better.

Matt did you disconnect the battery for a while to reset the PCM and then take it on a beat run??

Also Matt, any heat issues?? I know the Ti-ceramic is supposed to be good but just wondering.

You seriously got to stop posting about your headers man.......I am so frickin syked for getting my car in the shop this weekend I can barely concentrate on work. Its like it's 6 days before christmas and Angelina Jolie is sitting under my christmas tree wearing just wrapping paper and a bow.:D

Sorry_Officer
09-25-2002, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by bszopi
Oops... research prevails again. I guess you just picked the wrong companies or something!!

http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/ES/ESHHSCH/Emission.html

Ok, so it seems that Hooker makes D-shaped ports also. Hmm... where is says "Port Shape" and reads SAP - SAME AS PORT.

I dunno, maybe you are right. The other companies that mass produce headers figure there is no gain in having the tubing the same shape as the exhaust port.

Ok, I know I am not an authority on this subject but MOST, not all, headers I have seen are circle primaries and just because I was curious I just called the guy working on my heads......

I asked him if it mattered or made a difference if your primaries were SAP or a larger circle. He said, that most headers are circle ports and that most SAP headers actually can restrict air flow because of manufacturing flaws. Those SAP headers could have 1 or 2 primaries out of 6 or 8 that obstruct airflow by 100th of an inch. Or the gasket might not be exact. Or some one didn't grind out an edge as good as another set and so on. He said either one is fine and there is no absolute reason why someone should get SAP headers over a circle primary. The significance is very small and in some cases actually worse with SAP. He agrees that if SAP was flawless and perfect with it's seal on the head, that indeed it can keep exhaust speed up. But perfect is very hard to find, he said most headers DUMP, primary larger than exhaust port so no obstruction of flow will occur.

Vegeta
09-25-2002, 11:07 PM
Being in the majority doesn't make something better/right. Saying that those other companies do things to make better performance isn't too accurate. They do things that make them money, which means something more generic and simple is gonna win over something time consuming and quality oriented. I think even TOG would agree with me there. Dont make me break out the mcdonalds analogy:p

As for collectors...you want them to gradually taper down. Shorter is bad, longer is good.

Sorry_Officer
09-26-2002, 06:57 AM
I give up. I have headers and they work to the tune of 17 whp, maybe more since they are ceramic and not nickel. That is good enough for me.:D

mfuller
09-26-2002, 07:06 AM
They are getting louder....anyone with a SLP exhaust that is considering headers may want to re-consider....:rolleyes:

iceman
09-26-2002, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by mfuller
They are getting louder....anyone with a SLP exhaust that is considering headers may want to re-consider....:rolleyes:

You Borla boys finally gettin some volume!!!

We are gonna have to get Irate to get these headers when he gets boosted ... :)

Sorry_Officer
09-26-2002, 08:21 AM
Well my performance shop just called. My heads and lower intake is done. I will post up pictures this afternoon.

$669.00 plus tax........eat that Street Arsenal.:D

5 angle valve job, full bowl P&P, Intake P&P, Exhaust P&P, gasket matched, Narrowed the valve guides, resurfaced, and some other stuff he explained. Oh and my lower intake was also gasket matched and P&Ped. Exhaust ports are nice and shiny and the intake ports are shiny but scuffed. I also get flow sheets with them. Everything will be posted this afternoon around 5:00pm.

bszopi
09-26-2002, 08:34 AM
Looking forward to seeing the results of your machine work. And I'm glad to see you were willing to give up the cost. That just proves what several of us have been saying about SA prices. You can easily beat their prices locally, and know exactly what was done to your equipment. For all I know, SA may just polish up the heads and make them look pretty for $1200!!

John95GA
09-29-2002, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by Sorry_Officer
Well my performance shop just called. My heads and lower intake is done. I will post up pictures this afternoon.

$669.00 plus tax........eat that Street Arsenal.:D

5 angle valve job, full bowl P&P, Intake P&P, Exhaust P&P, gasket matched, Narrowed the valve guides, resurfaced, and some other stuff he explained. Oh and my lower intake was also gasket matched and P&Ped. Exhaust ports are nice and shiny and the intake ports are shiny but scuffed. I also get flow sheets with them. Everything will be posted this afternoon around 5:00pm.

Sweet deal! Does that include installation? If not, how much will that cost? 'Still a good deal either way, if they really did all that for that price. ;)

Sorry_Officer
09-30-2002, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by John95GA


Sweet deal! Does that include installation? If not, how much will that cost? 'Still a good deal either way, if they really did all that for that price. ;)

Installed?? Yeah I wish.......install is about a 14 hour book job, plus the Headers which shouldn't take to long since the top of the engine is removed. I am probably looking at a $600 to $700 bill for installation, fuel filter replacement, oil change, coolant change, tranny fluid change just to keep everything in tip top shape. Coolant and Oil have to be changed when replacing the heads, the other stuff I wanted done. So yeah it's costing me but it will be worth it.....