Is it true that.... [Archive] - GrandAmGT.com Forum

Mike3800

10-28-2002, 12:08 PM

GM hired 2 people from Chrysler back in 99? I know about Lutz but I am talking about 2 other people. My friend says in 99 that's why GM has continually tumbled downhill as far as performance and looks for their products, also he claims Chrysler got some GM people, and explains the sudden changes like the turbo Neon and turbo PT cruser and Stratus FWD SEDAN with the V6 and the 5-speed.

Sternie

10-28-2002, 01:45 PM

Aren't most of the cars GM is releasing on the upswing? New GA, MT reports V8 300+ HP in GP, GTO, etc...

Tony

Mike3800

10-28-2002, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by Sternie
Aren't most of the cars GM is releasing on the upswing? New GA, MT reports V8 300+ HP in GP, GTO, etc...

Tony

Those are just plans, not actual confirmed releases. Kindal like the 280+280 GTP is really still 250HP.

Sternie

10-28-2002, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by Mike3800

Those are just plans, not actual confirmed releases. Kindal like the 280+280 GTP is really still 250HP.

Well, with the new GA its been said by Spoon even that its gonna be right about 250 HP, the new GTO will be at least 300, and the new GP, even at 250, is going to out-perform the Accord and pretty much everything in it's class stock vs. stock auto vs. auto.

Tony

Mike3800

10-29-2002, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by Sternie

Well, with the new GA its been said by Spoon even that its gonna be right about 250 HP, the new GTO will be at least 300, and the new GP, even at 250, is going to out-perform the Accord and pretty much everything in it's class stock vs. stock auto vs. auto.

Tony

I'll start by saying I am not bashing GM.

Forgot the 255HP Maxima and the fact that the Accord now has 240HP with an avalable 6-speed and they still beilieve in making coupes. Not to mention the Altima and Maxima will still be avalable with manual transmissions. Then there's the WRX STi, the Mitsu Evo VII, the Nissan 350Z.... list goes on, they (GM) are playing catch up, and really need to. Especially after they commited the ultimate sin and killed the F-body, that GTO is no replacement, not an acceptable one.

Well... I am not going to debate but my main point is, did someone (engineer/big wig) from GM go to Dodge? Anyone know?

VTECSiGAH8R

10-29-2002, 08:55 PM

I'll have to agree with Mike, until I actually seee what Lutz really brings to the table, I'm not gonna be satisfied with GM progress. They have ****ed me off with all their teaser concepts that are NEVER made. I think they have more concepts that are nothing more than concepts than every other company combined. Makes me sick sometimes. The only reason the GTO is being brough here at all is that people are ****ed about the F-Body being gone, people don't like the fact that they have only like 1 RWD car now (and it's a Caddy), and the GTO is a success is Australia and the Middle East and wherever else Holden cars are pimped. It's kinda scary how few RWD cars GM has now, I definately like RWD more than FWD, even tho FWD is lighter and more space efficient and better in snow and blah blah blah. Anyway, I think the sudden burst of Chrysler muscle and good looks is due partially to the merger with Diamler Benz, because they see it as their chance to hit all the American competitors while they are down and shifting to better products.

red rocket

10-30-2002, 08:55 AM

Either I'm dillusional or GM still has its RWD king performance car. I think it is called a CORVETTE.

SilverGA2001

10-30-2002, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by red rocket
Either I'm dillusional or GM still has its RWD king performance car. I think it is called a CORVETTE.

Yeah, but last time I checked I couldn't buy one. Though if they made a 2003 Firebird, I'd have been able to buy that. :(

red rocket

10-30-2002, 10:48 AM

True, Vettes are a bit pricey. But if you compare them to a Viper, they are a bargain!

SilverGA2001

10-30-2002, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by red rocket
True, Vettes are a bit pricey. But if you compare them to a Viper, they are a bargain!

Can't afford that either. :D

Mike3800

10-30-2002, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by red rocket
Either I'm dillusional or GM still has its RWD king performance car. I think it is called a CORVETTE.

WOW... one car.

jsos431

10-30-2002, 04:44 PM

Hey you guys talkign about the accord with the 240hp, they aren't anything. The 2002 supposedly had 200hp which was more than the GAGT but I know for a fact my grand am ran faster than my mother's 2002 accord. Honda overrates their engines. And the rumor is 2005 GAGT supposedly has a 6 speed so don't forget that. If that happens then we will destroy the maxima and altima.

Mike3800

10-30-2002, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by jsos431
Hey you guys talkign about the accord with the 240hp, they aren't anything. The 2002 supposedly had 200hp which was more than the GAGT but I know for a fact my grand am ran faster than my mother's 2002 accord. Honda overrates their engines. And the rumor is 2005 GAGT supposedly has a 6 speed so don't forget that. If that happens then we will destroy the maxima and altima.

Everyone knows that off the line the Accord V6 with 200HP is slower than the GAGT, but it's only off the line.

The new V6 Accord especially with the 6-speed will slay the GAGT pretty badly.

2005 hasn't happened yet, and so that doesn't matter unless they actually produce what they are saying they will instead of make excuses as to why they couldn't build it. Ex.. G-force... we had issues with the transmissions ability to withstand the extra torque... yeah... so the 4T80 doesn't exsist in the 295Ft.Lb FWD Caddilac Seville?

Also who knows what eveybody else will have in 2005, they might just be still playing catch up. I don't ever remember GM doing this before (having to play catch up with ALL of their cars) so that's one reason I tend to believe my friends theory/news...

Anyone know any info on some GM Engineers/exec's going to Chrysler?

jsos431

10-30-2002, 07:29 PM

I know for a fact that the 2001 Grand Am GT is faster in every aspect than a 2001 Accord EX. I have driven both and I raced both. I know that the Accord can not keep up with the Grand Am in any part of a race.

White_out!

10-30-2002, 08:50 PM

I know GM is now going downhill. Since everyone is on the "gm" thing and some idiot liking the "mazdaspeed" overlooked faster cars for less. I'll educate you. Mike3800 is my best friend and neighbor, we both agree (although I will not speak for him directly) that gm has truly lost it. I wil NEVER buy another auto from that manufacuter EVER if they lag behind. I lost my ASS buying the Grand Am 60% of what I paid for it in 9 months BULLSH!@# on that. To boot it is weak. I am not an American car fan... oh wait... I mean foreign car fan, because these piles of etc.. are Canadian, Mexican, and for God sake's Austrialian built. Look at the Dodge Neon SRT-4 need I say, you can't touch this? It is the fastest thing UNDER 20K, THE FASTEST THING! "nuff said. It comes factory equipt with 215 Hp's and listen to this...245 Ft Lbs of torque out of a 4 banger, also 5 gears. Damn you GM put one in the Grand am, I mean Shi!, you deficate on a Cadillac and put a 5 speed in your beloved and renowned luxury car, but not the sporty GA?????. Hmmm.... let's think here...Naw, there is no aftermarket parts for neons, too bad turbo cars don't take boost controllers, and I know all of you are aware that chips do nothing to a turbo... oh well I guess asking 275 hp's and 276 Ft lbs is out of the question NOT THINK AGAIN GUYS! The STI is doing that right now... I am sorry to bash GM but GM please get with it and damn you for trying to price your cars like a Lexus. Please get with it. (I really am a Pontiac nut I know you would'nt believe it with this post but I'm Fuc#$%^ frustrated) GM CURE MY NEED FOR CHEAP AND SPEED!!!!!!!!!

Mike3800

10-31-2002, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by jsos431
I know for a fact that the 2001 Grand Am GT is faster in every aspect than a 2001 Accord EX. I have driven both and I raced both. I know that the Accord can not keep up with the Grand Am in any part of a race.

Perhaps a 4 cyl but the V6 will keep up and pass you once you hit your limiter.

Mike3800

10-31-2002, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by White_out!
I know GM is now going downhill. Since everyone is on the "gm" thing and some idiot liking the "mazdaspeed" overlooked faster cars for less. I'll educate you. Mike3800 is my best friend and neighbor, we both agree (although I will not speak for him directly) that gm has truly lost it. I wil NEVER buy another auto from that manufacuter EVER if they lag behind. I lost my ASS buying the Grand Am 60% of what I paid for it in 9 months BULLSH!@# on that. To boot it is weak. I am not an American car fan... oh wait... I mean foreign car fan, because these piles of etc.. are Canadian, Mexican, and for God sake's Austrialian built. Look at the Dodge Neon SRT-4 need I say, you can't touch this? It is the fastest thing UNDER 20K, THE FASTEST THING! "nuff said. It comes factory equipt with 215 Hp's and listen to this...245 Ft Lbs of torque out of a 4 banger, also 5 gears. Damn you GM put one in the Grand am, I mean Shi!, you deficate on a Cadillac and put a 5 speed in your beloved and renowned luxury car, but not the sporty GA?????. Hmmm.... let's think here...Naw, there is no aftermarket parts for neons, too bad turbo cars don't take boost controllers, and I know all of you are aware that chips do nothing to a turbo... oh well I guess asking 275 hp's and 276 Ft lbs is out of the question NOT THINK AGAIN GUYS! The STI is doing that right now... I am sorry to bash GM but GM please get with it and damn you for trying to price your cars like a Lexus. Please get with it. (I really am a Pontiac nut I know you would'nt believe it with this post but I'm Fuc#$%^ frustrated) GM CURE MY NEED FOR CHEAP AND SPEED!!!!!!!!!

Yep... He can speak for me in this instance... but I still like the GTP, Corvette and GM Trucks, except Avalanche is very ugly but at least functional. I say can the Dodge guy and get back to the way GM was going.

Used to be a joke to see a Caddilac on a car lot with a "Automatic and Ice Cold A/C" sticker on a Caddilac since you can't buy a manual Caddy... until now.

White_out!

10-31-2002, 03:28 PM

I too am a real fan of the Corvette, and GM trucks nothing compairs to the C-3 pickup we've test drove (Mike and I)

jsos431

10-31-2002, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by Mike3800

Perhaps a 4 cyl but the V6 will keep up and pass you once you hit your limiter.

No it can't, why dont' you people believe me, i have driven both, i own a grand am gt and my mother owns a 2002 accord v6 ex witht he supposed 200 hp. i have driven them both to the limits and my father that has drag raced since he was 16 drove the accord against me and i kicked its butt. the accord's limiter is not higher than 127 which i have gotten my grand am up to and it takes a lot longer to get up to 115 with the accord. how about you quit argueing with me cause i have driven both and i know. see ya

SilverGA2001

10-31-2002, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by jsos431

No it can't, why dont' you people believe me, i have driven both, i own a grand am gt and my mother owns a 2002 accord v6 ex witht he supposed 200 hp. i have driven them both to the limits and my father that has drag raced since he was 16 drove the accord against me and i kicked its butt. the accord's limiter is not higher than 127 which i have gotten my grand am up to and it takes a lot longer to get up to 115 with the accord. how about you quit argueing with me cause i have driven both and i know. see ya

Calm down man. Goes for everyone. Lets not talking about what car is faster, or whose raced what. Against the rules, and we all know it. So lets all calm down. k?

VTECSiGAH8R

10-31-2002, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by jsos431
Hey you guys talkign about the accord with the 240hp, they aren't anything. The 2002 supposedly had 200hp which was more than the GAGT but I know for a fact my grand am ran faster than my mother's 2002 accord. Honda overrates their engines. And the rumor is 2005 GAGT supposedly has a 6 speed so don't forget that. If that happens then we will destroy the maxima and altima.

Honda doesn't overrate their engines. That's Nissan. Honda just has VTEC engines, which don't have the low end torque that GAs have, so off the line the can beat a V6 Accord. From a roll, different story maybe. Anyway, the new ones will definately lay the smackdown on the GA, especially since the sedan is more aerodynamic than the GAs and the Coupe is even more aerodynamic than the Sedan Accord and can have a 6 speed.

Anyway, yeah I agree that GM needs to get off their asses, but to be truthful, Ford and Chrysler HAVE to jump around and sell this outrageous stuff that it seems that everyone wants. Why? Because they are losing TONS of cash!!! Both Ford and Chrysler are losing millions every day, while GM is still the ONLY American car maker holding a profit. Until GM starts losing money (or they project that they'll lose money) and the others start passing them in profits, then GM won't make any radical cars to play against the others.

And really, I think that makes sense, wouldn't you do what is best for you business as a whole and not for the minority that want something outrageous?? So that's what they are doing, slowly phazing in new designs that will have as much power or more than the competition in the future (Maxima, Altima, Accord, etc.). Plus it is a little hard to do a lot of innovation when u have to get rid of an entire car line (Olds).

Mike3800

11-01-2002, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by jsos431

No it can't, why dont' you people believe me, i have driven both, i own a grand am gt and my mother owns a 2002 accord v6 ex witht he supposed 200 hp. i have driven them both to the limits and my father that has drag raced since he was 16 drove the accord against me and i kicked its butt. the accord's limiter is not higher than 127 which i have gotten my grand am up to and it takes a lot longer to get up to 115 with the accord. how about you quit argueing with me cause i have driven both and i know. see ya

I've driven both and gotten in plenty of races with them. Not going to tell details about the races because of the rules. I will say that it's only off the line where there is a difference, and Honda, all the ones I have driven, does not put a limiter on their cars unless it is a dealer installed thing. Car mags reported the top speed to be drag limited to 134MPH on the 2000 Accord V6.

VTECSiGAH8R

11-01-2002, 12:05 PM

Honda does put in limiters. Dunno where the accord one is but Civics are limited to 110-112 from the factory. I know that for sure. ;)

Faylix

11-03-2002, 12:08 PM

Let me welcome you all to the Classic "Ricer Vs. Domestic Flame Wars".... its finally made it's way to gagt.com :eek:

SilverGA2001

11-03-2002, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by Faylix
Let me welcome you all to the Classic "Ricer Vs. Domestic Flame Wars".... its finally made it's way to gagt.com :eek:

lol Well, it's not exactly a new thing here... but it's rare.

VTECSiGAH8R

11-03-2002, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Faylix
Let me welcome you all to the Classic "Ricer Vs. Domestic Flame Wars".... its finally made it's way to gagt.com :eek:

Well I mean come on, how could someone actually sit there and suggest that a stock GAGT could still prolly whoop a car that has 240 hp?? Sure you could overrate hp, but even an Accord with maybe 215 hp could beat a GAGT, and I don't think they are gonna overrate by more than 5-10 hp.

I don't like imports as much as domestics cuz I like the history behind domestics, but you can't sit there and say make stupid claims and expect everyone to believe it.

GTPs will still own the sedan Accord V6 cuz it's automatic too and has 10 less hp (than the 2003 GTP) and like 70 ft-lbs less torque than the GTP. But the coupe would be neck and neck I think cuz of the stick and 6 gears and it's lighter and has a lower coefficient of drag. Pulley swap should take care of that problem though :D

SilverGA2001

11-03-2002, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by VTECSiGAH8R
GTPs will still own the sedan Accord V6 cuz it's automatic too and has 10 less hp (than the 2003 GTP) and like 70 ft-lbs less torque than the GTP.

I'm like VTec. I don't like imports as much and prefer my domestic car more often then not. But even the GTP would be challenged I think. I really wouldn't want to race them cuz I'd be afraid of the results.

The Honda might finally have the power, but it still has no soul.

jsos431

11-03-2002, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by VTECSiGAH8R

Well I mean come on, how could someone actually sit there and suggest that a stock GAGT could still prolly whoop a car that has 240 hp?? Sure you could overrate hp, but even an Accord with maybe 215 hp could beat a GAGT, and I don't think they are gonna overrate by more than 5-10 hp.

I don't like imports as much as domestics cuz I like the history behind domestics, but you can't sit there and say make stupid claims and expect everyone to believe it.

GTPs will still own the sedan Accord V6 cuz it's automatic too and has 10 less hp (than the 2003 GTP) and like 70 ft-lbs less torque than the GTP. But the coupe would be neck and neck I think cuz of the stick and 6 gears and it's lighter and has a lower coefficient of drag. Pulley swap should take care of that problem though :D

I wasn't never comparing the new 240Hp Accord to the Grand Ams. I compared the 2002 Accords with the 200Hp. I haven't driven the new ones but I have driven many many hondas and there was no way the 2002 Accords have 200 HP. I can say that cause I raced that year Accord down the 1/4 against my Grand Am and the Accord never gained an inch on me. My father was racing the Accord and I was driving my Grand Am and don't say it was the driver because he has been racing since he bought his 1968 Mustang Cobra Jet. So it wasn't the driver, I can have my own opinion and I don't believe they have the 200 HP. Sorry but it is America and I can have my own opinion.

VTECSiGAH8R

11-03-2002, 04:50 PM

jsos431

11-03-2002, 07:13 PM

i said that assuming that they aren't anything because as i stated the 2002 weren't anything and they said they had 200 HP. i am going to go out and test drive a brand new accord just for you and I know I will be disappointed because even their V6 drive and shift like their 4 cylinders.

VTECSiGAH8R

11-03-2002, 08:18 PM

Riiiight. Well I'm sure that your opinion is gonna be COMPLETELY UNBIASED and all :rolleyes: 10000:1 says you're gonna come back and make up 200 excuses as to why a GAGT is better. Then again, maybe you won't now that I have said this, just to prove me wrong??

Anyway, I've already checked out the Accord and I must say that the interior is even better laid out than the old one (which I thought was pretty nice already) and the interior has a lot of room. Also, the gaps between body panels are extremely tiny now, which is not a huge deal but it just seems amazing how nice the body flows with such small gaps. I will say that the rear end looks kinda nasty and that the front looks a little odd, but I like the decision they made to have an S2000-style hood on there. I haven't been in a test drive ride of one yet, but I know it does 0-60 in about 7 seconds (for the automatic sedan), so I doubt you'll have to push it as hard as the GAGT to get the same end result. I'm sure if you do push it all the way, that 6250 RPM max power (that's where it hits 240) and top end power will feel a little odd, but I know if that was me, 240 hp is 240 hp and it doesn't matter where it comes from. The only odd thing is that the car seems to handle and brake worse than last year's model.

I'll agree with you for sure on one thing, I think the 2005 Grand Am will blow everything away if it is what they say it will be.

Mike3800

11-04-2002, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by jsos431
Sorry but it is America and I can have my own opinion.

And you are legally allowed to be incorrect on facts like the fact that the Accord does have 200 HP.

It takes more than HP numbers to make one car faster than another. From a start the 200HP Accord will lose, and because of that the accord will be behind all the way through the 1/4 (but not losing any ground), it's because the GAGT gets more torque to the wheels FIRST!!!