CSV with Supercharger

[LukeD]

Thought I'd throw this up to the tuning gurus like tejohnson. Anything that needs addressing? Any ideas on how to lower the KR?

just change the .txt to .csv and there ya go. Thanks

[Sprucegagt]

Mind if I touch on some things.

42.5 # injectors are a must. IPW's of 24 ms is VERY bad. Until you get them in don't go WOT. That right there is a major portion of your KR. If you don't change the injectors I'm sure we will get a post from you along the lines of "What is this knock coming from my engine?"

Next time you scan, drop the idle, EGR and Boost parameters. There not needed right now. Instead include MAP(in kPa), LTFT, STFT and O2.

I take it your using the DHP Powrtuner. If so take the time to read the tuner guide THROUGHLY. I can't stress this enough.

Also you need to convert to at least a 2 bar MAP if you haven't done so already. It's a new ability that came out for the Powrtuner.

[atc3434]

Those are tough to read in .txt format. Like SpruceGagt said, get scans w/ 02 voltage and fuel trims, I'd also bet that with fuel injectors going static that you're going lean w/ not enough fuel, and hence the knock. If you've got powertuner, you can swap to bigger injectors relatively easier, then really boost on it.

[AaronGTR]

Yeah, if I only knew how to convert that to .csv I'd be all set.


A few things... you don't "need" to change the map sensor, considering many of us have been running boosted for a looong time without doing that, but it may make tuning easier so it wouldn't be a bad idea. No one's actually done it on a GA yet though and I haven't heard anything about how to actually go about it, so it might be better to wait awhile on that until you have other things figured out. I'm keeping an eye on this myself for now.

Also 42lb injectors aren't "a must" for you. At the boost levels you are running you could easily get enough fuel from something smaller like the 28lb injectors. Again though, since you have a '99 and they already have the bosch style injector clips you might as well get the 42's if you do swap injectors since they'll be easier to install.

I agree on the parameters. No need for boost, since it won't read anything until you change the MAP. Same thing with the others, and actually you don't really need the IAC position or trans temp either. Definitely read the tuner manual on the forum thuroughly. It tells you what all the most important parameters to scan are... things that you should have everytime you are doing a basic scan when you are tuning and changing things. :thumbs:

[xonelith]

Yeah, if I only knew how to convert that to .csv I'd be all set.



Either change the extension to .csv or open excel, open the file, and select comma delimeted.

[Sprucegagt]

Yeah, if I only knew how to convert that to .csv I'd be all set.


A few things... you don't "need" to change the map sensor, considering many of us have been running boosted for a looong time without doing that, but it may make tuning easier so it wouldn't be a bad idea. No one's actually done it on a GA yet though and I haven't heard anything about how to actually go about it, so it might be better to wait awhile on that until you have other things figured out. I'm keeping an eye on this myself for now.

Also 42lb injectors aren't "a must" for you. At the boost levels you are running you could easily get enough fuel from something smaller like the 28lb injectors. Again though, since you have a '99 and they already have the bosch style injector clips you might as well get the 42's if you do swap injectors since they'll be easier to install.

I agree on the parameters. No need for boost, since it won't read anything until you change the MAP. Same thing with the others, and actually you don't really need the IAC position or trans temp either. Definitely read the tuner manual on the forum thuroughly. It tells you what all the most important parameters to scan are... things that you should have everytime you are doing a basic scan when you are tuning and changing things. :thumbs:

Ask tejohnson what he feels about the MAP sensor. He was waiting for this feature to come out for a long time. I'm sure you will find out its better to have the 2 bar then the stock 1 bar.

Also the 42.5 # injectors were recommended so that if he wants to run more boost in the future the injectors can handle the fuel requirements. No need to run a smaller injector just to find out you need to upgrade them again if you up boost.

[tejohnson]

Don't scan:

- Boost%
- Desired EGR%
- Desired Idle
- IAC Position

Are you having idle issues or something?

Scan:

- O2 (B1S1)
- LTFT
- Timing Advance
- MAP (kPa)

Buy a tranny cooler!

Lower PE TPS Activation % to help the KR monster ;) EDIT: That is, if it still at the stock 70% (Any way I can get my hands on your calibration?)

Being a 99, you do have slightly smaller injectors than the 2000+. Try scanning again after the PE change. Drive around slowly and work your runs up to WOT slowly watching for KR. Your IPW's are way too high, but the injectors are playing "catch up" to the KR for entering PE so late... By then, it's all over. Your seeing what? 7-9 PSI at times?

The MAF table could possbly use some work...

[AaronGTR]

Being a 99, you do have slightly smaller injectors than the 2000+. Try scanning again after the PE change. Drive around slowly and work your runs up to WOT slowly watching for KR. Your IPW's are way too high, but the injectors are playing "catch up" to the KR for entering PE so late... By then, it's all over. Your seeing what? 7-9 PSI at times?

The MAF table could possbly use some work...



Good point. I almost forgot about that. I don't start seeing knock until later than that with my stock injectors, but he's already starting off with a 3.5lb handicap. Of course every car reacts a little different to mods, but I'm sure the smaller injectors doesn't help.

[LukeD]

Are you having idle issues or something?

Buy a tranny cooler!

Lower PE TPS Activation % to help the KR monster ;) EDIT: That is, if it still at the stock 70% (Any way I can get my hands on your calibration?)

Being a 99, you do have slightly smaller injectors than the 2000+. Try scanning again after the PE change. Drive around slowly and work your runs up to WOT slowly watching for KR. Your IPW's are way too high, but the injectors are playing "catch up" to the KR for entering PE so late... By then, it's all over. Your seeing what? 7-9 PSI at times?

The MAF table could possbly use some work...


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4572305868

Are these the injectors I'm looking for? Plug and play? Yeah I'm having some kind of idle issue. No misfiring. Feels almost like it has to do with air flow because I think it affects my brake booster. I've come to a stop before and it just died a couple times. Pretty rare though.

I'd give you my calibration but it seems Charles didn't add support for this ASE PCM after all. Last time I got an e-mail from him he said that he thinks he remembered to add it. I downloaded the lastest posting of the 1.1.9E file but there was still no support for it :( I'll hav e to e-mail him again and see. I believe if I remember what RAZE said was that this ASE was custom tuned for the supercharger but I may be mistaken. If it's just the normal ASE PCM I'm probably better off going with the DHP 1.5 file as a starter. I can send you that if you'd like but you probably have that already. Also, do I need to buy a 2 bar map sensor to work with the new PT feature or it it all PT based?

I'm not sure how much boost I'm running. For now I do have a boost gauge but I still need to install it. Any specific tranny cooler that's recommended?

Thanks again to everyone helping me out on this.

PS: Yeah as someone mentioned the easy way to convert txt to csv is just rename the file extension. I just figured out my next request for the requests/feedback section will be the ability to upload csv files.

[tejohnson]

It would actually be cheaper to get:

http://zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=249

For the extra $50, you can get them flow matched... They are a direct fit. Has your LIM been ported & polished?


Perhaps you may have a vacuum leak... The LTFT's and MAP values at idle can help show this. EDIT: It may not hurt to raise the idle to something like 850-900 RPM.

Start with a stock file as a starter, and the 1.5 could be used as an example as it relates to tranny parameters, etc. The 1.5 has more timing than you should be using for a boosted 3400. With the newer version of Powrtuner, you Can switch to a 2-bar map on the 99 since the MAP table is visible, but I need to research the specific settings by looking at a calibration from a Grand Prix GTP.

Install the boost gauge ASAP, for the tranny cooler, I'm using: http://zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=144

EDIT: Oh, and I'd say dump the whole ASE thing. You really don't have any need for it at all anymore... Revert to a stock PCM, stock file, and move on from there.

[AaronGTR]

Either change the extension to .csv or open excel, open the file, and select comma delimeted.


You can't just open the file and change the extension. The computer won't let you do that, or at least mine won't. I tried right clicking and checked all the options. I don't have excel either. I have openoffice.org which is similar, but I don't know how to change the file to .csv. It will only let me re-save the file as html or some other formats but not csv which is the only format I can open it in logcolor with.

[tejohnson]

right click on the link, and select "save as" [filename].csv

[Jeremy]

or you can just reupload the file as a .csv file. I added them as a valid extension on the forum attachment list

[AaronGTR]

Ok, I got it now...

Well, first thing looking at that scan, I see you're getting some knock fairly early. You shouldn't be seeing 2+ degrees of KR at only 50% throttle and 3000rpm. The injector pw is still only 16 at that point which shouldn't be maxed out at that rpm. That clearly says you have some other fueling issues with that program unrelated to the injector size.

First thing I'd do is ditch that ASE calibration and get a stock program in there to work with.

[LukeD]

It would actually be cheaper to get:

http://zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=249

For the extra $50, you can get them flow matched... They are a direct fit. Has your LIM been ported & polished?


Perhaps you may have a vacuum leak... The LTFT's and MAP values at idle can help show this. EDIT: It may not hurt to raise the idle to something like 850-900 RPM.


Possibly my makeshift block of where the exhaust gas normally goes back into the supercharger is not airtight? That thing is under the s/c so I'd have to de-mount to check.

My LIM is P&P. I have a p&p uim I haven't installed yet. I am still waiting on my powdercoated uim from john of apoc (6 months) so I got tired of waiting and bought a street arsinal one from a member here but it's got like a residue from paint on it that doesn't look good. I was hoping I could either powdercoat this one, or hoping john would come through for me with the one I ordered.

I'm ditching ASE tonight, I made a stock pcm file with the 1.5 tranny and accessories changes on it. Stock everything else though. I can e-mail it to you if you'd like. Feel free to make any changes you see necessary.

Thanks again!

[tejohnson]

Feel free to send it across ;)

[LukeD]

ok thanks. pm me your e-mail and I'll send it over

[LukeD]

ok I did this scan right after I put the DHP file back in...

They are 2 files because 100kb is the max upload.

Changes on this PCM are...

Stock pcm except:

copied 1.5 transmission changes
accessory changes (fan on at key off)
Lowered PE TPS Activation to 60%

My IPWs are still way too high.

Had not reset fuel trim yet with this scan.

So those ebay injectors arn't a direct fit? Also with the injectors zzperformance offers, will I need the injector connectors?

[LukeD]

This is a second scan I took right after I reset the fuel trim....

[AaronGTR]

Only took a quick look so far but...


I still think there's some other fuel issues going on besides the injectors. They shouldn't be maxed out yet at only 16-17 IPW at 3600rpm but you're already getting 5 degrees of KR. I see the MAP goes to 104 and stays pegged there around then so I assume thats when the boost kicks in. You logged traction% though for some reason... we really need the throttle%, and mph would be nice too.

Looking at your first scan it's obvious the fuel trims weren't settled yet. Your LTFT's where +5 but your STFT's where -2 to -3 or 0 and that was while the O2 sensor was reading lean and you where getting KR. Somethings off enough in the fueling that the STFT can't react fast enough. I noticed your commanded A/F ratio didn't switch from 14.7 to 13.0 until around 3900rpm (can't tell the throttle % of course). You might want to lower the commanded A/F a little, especially during PE, and lower the PE activation point. Basically your just gonna need the bigger injectors though. If the ones from zzp are the lucas 42.5lb then they should plug right into your stock harness since you have a '99. :thumbs:

Question. You have the fuel pressure adapter that came with the kit installed on the regulator right? If you weren't getting the pressure increase under boost that could make you go lean even when the injectors weren't maxed. Also what kind of plugs are you using? If you aren't using colder plugs that could be causing some knock. Those are my thought for now until I look at the scans more. Todd can probably tell you more.

[LukeD]

Question. You have the fuel pressure adapter that came with the kit installed on the regulator right? If you weren't getting the pressure increase under boost that could make you go lean even when the injectors weren't maxed. Also what kind of plugs are you using? If you aren't using colder plugs that could be causing some knock. Those are my thought for now until I look at the scans more. Todd can probably tell you more.


Yeah I installed the adapter, but it actually came with the regulator on it already so I din't have to do any work to it, just put it on. Hopefully there wasn't anything wrong with it. Hopefully too, everything is on correctly. Maybe I have clogged injectors? Here's a pic, you can't see too much from it but the fuel pressure adapter is on. And yeah, I need to plug that hole in the accordian tubing.

Also the plugs are TR6 at .035 gap.

Thanks again,

Luke

http://www.grandamgt.com/forum/vbpgimage.php?do=full&p=258

[AaronGTR]

Yeah, plug that hole. It could be throwing off your MAF reading significantly. That plug gap is a tad on the small side. Is the TR6 a colder plug? I use denso's so I don't know the NGK specs.

[LukeD]

Actually, after thinking about it, that hole is after the MAF. The MAF could be thinking that it's getting X amount of air, when it's really getting X + whatever comes in that hole, thus adding less fuel than it needs?

edit: beat me to it about the hole, I hadn't actually though about it till now.

[tejohnson]

May as well be buying the injectors...

Timing needs a bit of reduction if you are going to be running it heavy...

When you clear your trims, make sure to drive around for a while slowly working your way to WOT. Start out with normal driving easing into PE. After a while, work up to going WOT.

Have been kinda busy with my engine lately, but I will update the calibration you sent me... or... Open mine, and transfer:

Spark:

Good
Bad
Mean Best

Lower PE more...

This may somewhat help. The calibration I posted previously is on the safety side for the engine (but don't use all my fuel settings), but not for the tranny...

[tejohnson]

I have the same plugs (6IX). .040 gap works best for me...

[LukeD]

OK thanks Todd and Aaron. I'll start by plugging that hole, changing the spark table and lowering PE.

lol I just noticed that ebay auction I was looking at was selling 1 for around $45. I was thinking all in the picture were included. Good thing I double checked. I was wondering about your (Todds) post earlier and was asking myself "How is that cheaper?" Always read the fine print lol

[Sprucegagt]

Yeah, got to fix that hole Luke. Tuning is pretty much worthless while it is still open. When you did the scans after resetting the fuel trims, were they done immediately after the reset? If so, then there not reliable numbers. You need to let the computer settle by driving the car for 20-30 minutes. Then you can scan.

Have you read the tuner guide yet?

[LukeD]

That hole is plugged. No more idle issue now. I still can't really tell how much boost I'm pushing. I installed my boost gauge but looking at it for the first time, I discovered that even before I connected it or before the engine was on it sat at a vacuum of 10. Then once the engine's on it idles at a vaccum of 20. I don't really know if I'm getting an accurate reading though when the supercharger really kicks in.
Anyway...

Did a little scanning tonight. Tried my best to follow the tuner guide this time.

I'm still getting a max of 7 KR, which when that jumps up, so does my injector PW to about 21-22. At that time traction also drops to about 13-14%. I'm not sure how the traction % works, but I dont feel any traction loss.

Am I getting KR because of the spike in my injector PW or is it visa versa? Also could the fact that there are less hardlines in my engine now, and lots of unsecured hoses and stuff be creating false knock? I'm not really sure how sensitive that is. Or could clogged injectors be causing this?

[atc3434]

IPWs of 22ms = you need bigger injectors. You can't be sure of you're fueling if they are going static, which they are getting close to. Whats the air/fuel ratio look like? (What is the 02 voltage at WOT) I guessing its going lean, causing the knock retard. Stock programing may also be pulling timing based on torque management, trying to save the tranny. High intake temps also cause the PCM to automatically pull timing. You need to fix the boost gauge so you really know whats going on, and then get WOT readings on RPM, BOOST, IPW, 02 Voltage, IAT, LTFT, Ignition Adance, and Knock Retard. That'll at least give you an idea of whats happening, and if you really need to upgrade injectors, etc. 99's, as its been said before, had smaller injectors than the later years, so you're even more likely to need an upgrade than a 2000+ GAGT.

Something I just thought of, those injectors in the 99 really must be too small for boost, I know all motor with my Intake headers, catback, and DHP, my IPWs were usually 18-19ms, and I was running about 920mvs, which isn't over-ly rich. So, if you've got the same injectors, and are under 6+psi of boost, you're defintely gonna run out of fueling.

[LukeD]

http://www.grandamgt.com/forum/showpost.php?p=559653&postcount=12

lol found his post about it

I think I scanned the wrong O2 reading, I dont think I got voltage. :doh:

I've got 2.5" from the headers back, plus a ported LIM (ported upper will go in as soon as I get it back from APOC :doh: ) So you are right I probably am just leaning out. I did notice a loss in power though going back to stock instead of the ASE. I kept the DHP 1.5 tranny changes though so it's not that slowing me down.

I'm just a newb to tuning so I'm not sure how difficult it is to tune for bigger injectors once I get them.

[tejohnson]

I may be putting my 42.5# injectors up for sale. Got the balanced option from ZZP too, ran for less than 500 miles. Gotta upgrade to the ~60lb injectors I think :nervous:

[AaronGTR]

Yeah, your boost gauge should sit at zero when the engine's off. Then should be anywhere from 14-18 in/Hg at idle (vacuum will depend on mods a bit) then progress to boost under enough throttle and rpm.


Stop logging traction% already, it's useless. We need to see the throttle position (should be logging TP%). ;)

[LukeD]

I may be putting my 42.5# injectors up for sale. Got the balanced option from ZZP too, ran for less than 500 miles.

I'd buy them if you'd sell them.

Gotta upgrade to the ~60lb injectors I think :nervous:
lol that's scary. 12s right around the corner!

[LukeD]

Yeah, your boost gauge should sit at zero when the engine's off. Then should be anywhere from 14-18 in/Hg at idle (vacuum will depend on mods a bit) then progress to boost under enough throttle and rpm.;)
lol yeah that thread I posted was where I found RAZE saying that it broke.


Stop logging traction% already, it's useless. We need to see the throttle position (should be logging TP%). ;)

Yeah lol I think I go a little scan crazy. I did log TP% this time though.

[Sprucegagt]

So you are right I probably am just leaning out. I did notice a loss in power though going back to stock instead of the ASE.



This has only been mentioned to you three times now in this thread. Get some bigger injectors before doing any more WOT runs. Your just asking for trouble if you don't!

The power loss is most likely due to different timing settings. Don't worry about it for now. Get the fueling straight first then we can work on timing.

Glad you plugged that hole in the tubing. Your idle will thank you for it. I would recommend resetting the fuel trims in the PCM. You can do it in PT or buy pulling the PCM fuse in the underhood fuse box for 10 minutes.

[xonelith]

I'm just a newb to tuning so I'm not sure how difficult it is to tune for bigger injectors once I get them.

Pretty easy. for an NA setup anyway. I'm not sure about boost, but I assume it is the same theory.

Change the IFR tables (based on a percentage difference in size of injector). That's a pretty decent start. If your running constantly rich or lean, adjust the table accordingly.

As mentioned, get bigger injectors before getting too crazy (or turn down the boost levels). I'm NA and was running static.

Duty cycle, I find is a much better way to determine if your maxing out your injectors or not. I think Todd has a spreadsheet somewhere, but the formula is:

duty cycle = rpm * ipw / 1200

ie) 5800 * 22 / 1200 = 106%

If you're tuning using the narrowband, all it tells you is if you are rich or lean at WOT. Not how rich or lean you are. You would need a wideband to determine exactly how rich or lean you are running. Makes your tuning much easier as long as it is installed correctly (I'm working on an install guide for the Innovate LC-1... I'll let you know when it is done).

[tejohnson]

There is a canned table for the 42.5# injectors (which I would sitck with if you go to these).

EDIT: FYI: http://www.grandamgt.com/forum/showthread.php?p=759296

[LukeD]

This has only been mentioned to you three times now in this thread. Get some bigger injectors before doing any more WOT runs. Your just asking for trouble if you don't!

Already on it. :thumbs:



Glad you plugged that hole in the tubing. Your idle will thank you for it. I would recommend resetting the fuel trims in the PCM. You can do it in PT or buy pulling the PCM fuse in the underhood fuse box for 10 minutes.

First thing I did after plugging the hole was reset my fuel trim.

There is a canned table for the 42.5# injectors (which I would sitck with if you go to these).

That's great to know I'd have something to go off of.

Thanks again everybody for your help!

[LukeD]

Here's a quick run with the new injectors. lol I still need to add some parameters to scan and delete some. I also think I want to firm up my shifts a little more. 1.5 shifts dont quite seem as nice as the old 1.0 file.

Now that I have bigger injectors, my KR is about down to 6 max where it was about 8 max before. Also should I raise PE enable now that I have the bigger injectors? I think I have it set at about 50.

edit: btw this log I started after a little driving, working my way up to WOT runs.

[tejohnson]

I'd leave it where it is at at the moment. I think you need to contemplate adding a little pressure to the shifts, and dropping some of the torque management.

If you want to temporarily experiment to see if improvements are made, copy my entire transmission section, and my fuel and spark torque management. You will want to raise the shift pressure for 2nd a bit more.

You may not want to keep these settings, or it may gut your transmission. What looks interesting is the significant reduction in traction, and although little KR, there is negative spark in some places...

How long have you driven it before you did this scan? How does it "feel"? How much boost? [could you add MAF Hz in the next scan?] ( IPW's look quite a bit better ;) )

EDIT: P.S. if you copy my tranny and torque management settings, you willl want to do a full write to clear all trims and trans adapts table.

[LukeD]

I'd driven it about 2-3 days before scanning. I started out driving slow and working my way up to WOT when I scanned, but I can't say the same about the few days before (I was mashing on it quite a bit). Maybe I should reset my fuel trim and start again? If my faulty boost gauge is correct im probably at about 9 psi max. My boost gauge is stuck at a vaccum of 10, even when the car is off but it works like normal, in that max boost gets almost up to zero. lol my friend said he was in kragan or autozone or something and he saw one of those auto meter gauges on the shelf stuck in the exact same position.

Maybe I need to turn traction control off too? I never thought it'd make a difference if it wasn't off the line but maybe it does.

But yeah I'll try your settings too and see how the car reacts.

I've been meaning to put that tranny cooler that I bought, on the car also, but to put it on I need to disconnect the fluid line, which means I'll need to put tranny fluid in (need to anyway, 87,000 miles and it's never been replaced) but to replace my tranny fluid means to take the cap off, which my TOG headers are blocking, and to get those off I need to take the supercharger off. :banghead

[tejohnson]

heh... You need to replace that fluid ASAP.

With the TM setting I was using, that includes the traction control. I still even have a habit of disabling it. One odd thing tho, the first time the wheels brake traction after I start the car, when I dont disable via the button, the "Trac Off" light illuminates in in DIC ;)

The other thing that came to mind... I was wondering if you have touched your MAF table? You do have to raise the values from ~8000 and up if you havn't yet. You could try by using mine as somewhat of a reference. The reason is that you are boosting, yet you have a 1-bar MAP, so when you max at 104 kPa (typically at WOT), your fueling is relying on the MAF. If you don't try to compensate, it will give ya fueling issues. Could be another reason why you are leaning out and seeing some KR on your WOT runs....

[AaronGTR]

I've been meaning to put that tranny cooler that I bought, on the car also, but to put it on I need to disconnect the fluid line, which means I'll need to put tranny fluid in (need to anyway, 87,000 miles and it's never been replaced) but to replace my tranny fluid means to take the cap off, which my TOG headers are blocking, and to get those off I need to take the supercharger off. :banghead



Yeah, change the fluid and filter in the trans for sure, but don't do a flush. Just drain and change the filter, and get that trans cooler in there. You should be able to get to the cap to fill the trans without removing anything. I can on mine. Just use a long neck funnel to fill it. It will clear the headers and everything else. I'd replace the boost/vac gauge eventually if you can to make sure you know exactly what the engine's seeing for boost and for vacuum at idle. My autometer sits right at zero when it's off.

[Blight]

What is torque managemtn and what would it do to your cars potenital time in a quarter mile run if you dont mess with it????

[tejohnson]

Torque management consists of traction control, differential score protection, and torque abuse modes (if you go by the layout using Powrtuner). In short, there are various tables which will reduce the overall torque throughout the poswertain to attempt in keeping you from destroying engine, transmission, and other drivetrain components.

If you do nothing to eliminate some of these components, you will ultimately not have peak performance in some areas, negating your high dollar bolt on(s).

This elimination also changes the way you should be driving the car (with some sense) and what you do to counter bad situations (if traction control is removed/reduced).