Finally Intercooled

[AleroB888]

Well, almost! The basic installation of the core is done, no coolant lines yet. The car's performance already seems a bit better , though.

http://shutter15.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/02/009/6A/D8/8A/85/7TbVWSuqDuN4orVaLdN45cX0gbJzAOri0300.jpg

http://shutter12.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/01/004/7E/2F/72/13/j+ivrseqokvtZh9nvwaNmVzlXotNvQrJ0300.jpg

I hope these pics work, I'm not too swift on computers. The Spearco unit is the one Kyle had for sale.

[SikMindz]

Wow...out of nowhere another boost bro shows up.

Setup looks mint man...cant wait to see some new times.

[Kitt]

It might be just that time of year ;)

[AaronGTR]

Nice, looks crowded, but also looks a little more permanent than what aleroboy had on his car. Should definitely help the power though once you get the coolant circulating. Whats with that electric fan though? Is that permantly mounted? Don't think that would do a whole lot.

[SpyhunteR]

Nice, looks crowded, but also looks a little more permanent than what aleroboy had on his car. Should definitely help the power though once you get the coolant circulating. Whats with that electric fan though? Is that permantly mounted? Don't think that would do a whole lot.


It's RAM AIR yo.

[coupe]

I love it when someone comes outta no where and is like "BAMM!!! look at my totaly badass setup that will decimate all!!!". And they can actually back it up. I love it.

[gaowners32]

Thats ****en insane

[coupe]

The whole setup looks very professional and well thought out.

Im curious about that fan thinger you got there.

[Blight]

MAF user :P

Sweet set up. Curious, do all SAMCO couplers say 'samco' on them? I ordered Samco Couplers a few years ago on an upgrade for an intake and they didnt have the name on there :/

[ganut]

nice setup.

I still wonder mhy more of you m62 guys don't just use alchy injection though....

I know your I/C setup is superior to it, but alchy is a cheaper/easier to find solution.

[99Alero_Boy]

Nice, looks crowded, but also looks a little more permanent than what aleroboy had on his car. Should definitely help the power though once you get the coolant circulating. Whats with that electric fan though? Is that permantly mounted? Don't think that would do a whole lot.

Exact same setup John had on his car and then mike (n20-olds). Would have gone on my car except for my new build up I need a better one. Anyways Greg just mounted it different. Oh and Greg I still have a carbon fiber hood you need to come pay for and pick up :angel

[AaronGTR]

nice setup.

I still wonder mhy more of you m62 guys don't just use alchy injection though....

I know your I/C setup is superior to it, but alchy is a cheaper/easier to find solution.



Cheaper and easier to find but it has it's down side too... like having to refill the alcohol all the time if you're driving anywhere. The intercoolers always on. It's more difficult to tune too. I don't think pat ever got his working 100% right. Last time I saw it run at MGM it was still having issues.

[AaronGTR]

Exact same setup John had on his car and then mike (n20-olds). Would have gone on my car except for my new build up I need a better one. Anyways Greg just mounted it different. Oh and Greg I still have a carbon fiber hood you need to come pay for and pick up :angel


Last pic I saw of John's car with that setup it didn't have a finished intake on it, so it looks a little different.

I'm still wondering what the point of the fan is, besides extra weight and draw on the electrical system. There's a couple of strange hoses too, one going to the port in the SC outlet where the IAT used to be and another going to the aluminum pipe in the intake before the TB... any idea what those are for?

[99Alero_Boy]

Last pic I saw of John's car with that setup it didn't have a finished intake on it, so it looks a little different.

I'm still wondering what the point of the fan is, besides extra weight and draw on the electrical system. There's a couple of strange hoses too, one going to the port in the SC outlet where the IAT used to be and another going to the aluminum pipe in the intake before the TB... any idea what those are for?

It was finished but greg is not utilizing the custom UIM that goes with the intercooler setup, the fan he uses to cool down the supercharger and stuff i guess, it sucks air from outside though his custom hood scoop. The strange hose in the port of the sc is his homemade water injection, i believe the other hose is as well

[AleroB888]

Last pic I saw of John's car with that setup it didn't have a finished intake on it, so it looks a little different.

I'm still wondering what the point of the fan is, besides extra weight and draw on the electrical system. There's a couple of strange hoses too, one going to the port in the SC outlet where the IAT used to be and another going to the aluminum pipe in the intake before the TB... any idea what those are for?

Thanks to all for the comments and criticisms. I'll try to clear up a few things with one post, as I have some plumbing nightmares to attend to, as you can imagine! The "strange hoses" and the pipe fitting before the TB are actually an atomizer system for methanol injection, which I started using soon after getting the M62 (about 3 years). It uses boost pressure going in one tube (next to the blue Samco coupler) to draw liquid up a second tube underneath the fitting. The brass fitting is a 1 psi check valve, but you can get other values. Metering is done by using different size hoses or flow restrictors. Very similar to a paint spray gun. The methanol tank is the one with the green cap in front of the OEM coolant fill tank.

The intake manifold I modified two years ago, to prepare for intercooling, and it is 2 1/2 inch inside, 2 3/4 outside diameter at the inlet port. Where the Spearco is now, I had a U-tube installed. That change improved track times about 2 tenths, compared to the Magnusen coupler.

I think one of John's priorities was to make a kit that had no big problems for customers to deal with, like servicability and hood clearance. With the Spearco installed as you see in the pic, there is about 1/8 inch hood clearance. I put a thin rubber pad on top of it, but it does rub off some of the hood's paint.
Also, I am using 2 1/2 inch I.D. piping from the Spearco to the intake mainifold, which makes it more crowded. A welded-on 90 degree fitting to replace the Samco coupler would help a lot.

The fan mates up to to the hood scoop vent and blows under the IM plenum and over the SC gearcase. Also , the intake is raised 1/2 inch with spacers. This was an attempt to help heat-soak issues during hot days and when you are stuck in the staging lanes at the track. It has little or no effect when the car is moving, but does good in parking lots or in situations where you can't get enough cool-down time during bracket runs. It could benefit from a shroud. The engine compartment looks better without it, but remove 3 bolts and it's off!

[Schweppe23]

what size pulley do u run?

[tejohnson]

The fan mates up to to the hood scoop vent and blows under the IM plenum and over the SC gearcase. Also , the intake is raised 1/2 inch with spacers. This was an attempt to help heat-soak issues during hot days and when you are stuck in the staging lanes at the track. It has little or no effect when the car is moving, but does good in parking lots or in situations where you can't get enough cool-down time during bracket runs. It could benefit from a shroud. The engine compartment looks better without it, but remove 3 bolts and it's off!


Kinda funny, but related, there were some 3800 folks at Pontiac Nationals with big ole 110vac "house" fans sitting on top the engines when the other classes were on the track and in the lanes.... Whatever works...

[AleroB888]

what size pulley do u run?


I'm running a 2.2 inch pulley, and getting about 8 psi max from a standing start run. If I nail it from 45 mph, it holds a steady 6psi. I get slighty more boost as the weather gets cooler, or if I go down to sea level.

I have a 2.1 inch pulley that I have not tried yet, but that brings up another question-- does anyone know what size belt I should then use? Also, is there a different size alternator pulley I can add to take up the slack?

[Schweppe23]

What T.B. do you have on there?

[AleroB888]

The TB is an OEM unit bored out to 2 1/2 inch.

[AaronGTR]

I'm running a 2.2 inch pulley, and getting about 8 psi max from a standing start run. If I nail it from 45 mph, it holds a steady 6psi. I get slighty more boost as the weather gets cooler, or if I go down to sea level.

I have a 2.1 inch pulley that I have not tried yet, but that brings up another question-- does anyone know what size belt I should then use? Also, is there a different size alternator pulley I can add to take up the slack?


Do you have the stock crank pulley or an underdrive? The E/M kit comes with a 103.7" belt. Some brands you can get a 103.4", but the gatorback belts (which I recommend) only come in 103.7" and 103". 103" was too small when I tried it with a 2.4" SC pulley. It completely locks out the tensioner and the belt rubs on the back of the tension arm. If you had an UD crank pulley and smaller SC pulley it might fit but would still be tight.

The other thing to think about is blower rpm. Eaton only gives charts for the M62 up to 14,000 rpm and they recommend that as peak rpm. Above that you start dropping out of the peak efficiency range until you eventually hit the point where it won't flow any more air and all it does is create more heat.

With a stock CP and 2.5" SC you just break 14,000 blower rpm at 6000 engine rpm. I have a 2.4" pulley which is as low as I'll go with mine. If you have an underdrive CP, then you'll be fine. The smallest GM used on it's SC/T concept cars was 2.2" though and I don't know if I'd go smaller than that. You'll have to calculate the blower rpm for your pulley combination.

[aleroboy]

N2O-olds had a 1 7/8" pulley on his sc and the sc was fine
the engien made 15psi
but being a stock engine it didnt last long enough to document.

[aleroboy]

MAF user :P

Sweet set up. Curious, do all SAMCO couplers say 'samco' on them? I ordered Samco Couplers a few years ago on an upgrade for an intake and they didnt have the name on there :/

as of recently (last 6 months) all the samco couplers, elbows etc that I've ordered say samco

[aleroboy]

Last pic I saw of John's car with that setup it didn't have a finished intake on it, so it looks a little different.

I'm still wondering what the point of the fan is, besides extra weight and draw on the electrical system. There's a couple of strange hoses too, one going to the port in the SC outlet where the IAT used to be and another going to the aluminum pipe in the intake before the TB... any idea what those are for?


I only have one pic of the finished setup and its not digital. Its more of a poster. I should of took some with the intake on I guess. wanted to show the intercooler layout a little better though. with the intake on its hard to see all the piping.

[AaronGTR]

N2O-olds had a 1 7/8" pulley on his sc and the sc was fine
the engien made 15psi
but being a stock engine it didnt last long enough to document.


Just because it didn't break and still made boost doesn't necessarily mean it was optimal. I'm sure you're aware that the faster you turn a supercharger the more power it takes from the engine. At the speed it would have been turning with that size pulley I'm sure he was outside the efficiency range, so while he might still have been getting more air flow, it was under diminishing power returns because of drag on the engine and higher heating of the air charge at that boost level because of the excessive rotor speed. At that point a bigger blower would be better for getting the same boost level with less rpm. Of course you knew that already since I seem to remember you saying something similar before. ;) Anyway, the power loss is an issue for everyone and the heat is especially for the majority of us with this kit that aren't intercooled.

[aleroboy]

thats exactly why I gave the magna up. it was not going to meet my power demands :)
the magna isn't too happy turning that fast either

[AleroB888]

Update 1

The pump and water/ice tank are installed. The coolant hoses are in place secure enough to do tests, but not nearly finalized. I made a few runs using ambient temp water, and no question, the system works. It remains to be seen how much the benefits will offset the gain in weight! I'll try to keep track of the data, and mention all problem areas (quite a few! ) .

It was necessary to hammer out the sheet metal forward of the Spearco to allow room for the coolant fitting. Then a small crater was pounded out on the frame for the raised oval tab on the bottom IC end tank to fit into. Now the core sits flat with a solid mounting.
The piping from the SC to the core are two pieces, each one a 76 degree bend. The Samco coupler requires an insert to keep from collapsing. From the IC to the IM, the pipes are 90 and 45 degree pieces, with a 45 degree coupler at IM............

http://shutter12.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/04/006/7E/E5/B2/1D/wb7vEkmsQ-zbbwOzC01gp6Ozd8E-RyAZ0300.jpg

The tank is a 3 gallon unit. Again, a little hammering required to get a good fit:

http://shutter10.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/05/007/77/BD/5B/7C/F7QFLjNbEauM0r100uxuGCQMdYWmX94Z0300.jpg

http://shutter06.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/04/00A/2D/DE/13/B4/TT7awXDl2gOpEaY6i3xDNl6LHKS2-DMm0300.jpg

Here, the engine compartment is set up for basic tests. The tube going into TB is an 82 degree bend:

http://shutter15.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/01/009/7C/B7/73/3B/XonR9Gbcp2z0RFN5R80YsGab2JsUYZ6-0300.jpg

[99Alero_Boy]

looks good greg!!! you gonna be at bandimere for the next corvette club clash, i am definately bringing the bike up since the car won't be running for awhile.....

[Schweppe23]

Why such a difference between your the times listed in the sig? I would think that the cooler temps and better 60 would have yielded a better ET?

Kyle what do u have planned for your car?

[99Alero_Boy]

well, with getting married next year it will be very slow going and i'm sure you will all be in the 11s before I am done but......


i'm gonna try to push the m62 as far as it will go, right now working on the 65hd swap (including 3.69 gears, 3000 stall, quaife LSD, and other little stuff)

Engine mods will include worked over 3500 heads, LIM, custom UIM for my new LAI setup, Rods, Pistons, Etc

Suspension still deciding but definately custom tube arms, shocks, and springs

Basically the whole engine will be worked over and the suspension and stuff i'm hoping to tune for maximum efficiency

with the forged bottom end and what not i will be running a 50-100 direct wetshot nitrous....

hp is not a big deal, i have some ideas where it will be at but i want 12s here at altitude :driving:

[Graxall]

Why such a difference between your the times listed in the sig? I would think that the cooler temps and better 60 would have yielded a better ET?

Kyle what do u have planned for your car?
Saw that myself.
But its good to see another person fly outta left feild and boost up. If only my car wasnt a P.o.S and i wasnt living paycheck to paycheck :(...But still your engine does look a little cluttered. Doesnt even look like you can close the hood lol..But once you get everything done you should do a engine dress up to make it a little more presentable.

Also ive never seen anything like that "tank" you have in the back of ur car, what exactly is that for?

[ganut]

alchy prolly

[lone_wolf025]

I thought it was the tank for the water supply...course its more likely a "fuel cell"

[ganut]

I thought he said his water tank was by the coolant overflow tank on the passengers side.

[lone_wolf025]

I dunno...I'm too overwhelmed by the complexity of this feat of engineering to try and figure out what each and hose/part is for.

[SikMindz]

Looks cramped but well thought out. Nice work!

[ganut]

It looks confusing, but once you stop and think about it, it's fairly well done and makes sense. I've got an eaton boosted car myself, and it still took me a few good looks at it to figure out how everything was plumbed.

[99Alero_Boy]

the fuel cell in the back is a water tank for the water to air intercooler which is why he needed the extra external water pump

oh yeah and on my list i forgot custom headers since the TOGs will be a restriction on my 3500 heads......

[AaronGTR]

the fuel cell in the back is a water tank for the water to air intercooler which is why he needed the extra external water pump

oh yeah and on my list i forgot custom headers since the TOGs will be a restriction on my 3500 heads......


How you figure that? They have bigger primaries than the S&S headers and the 3500 heads aren't that different from the 3400 heads. They don't flow any more than a set of ported 3400 heads so explain to me how they are suddenly a restriction? The TOG's will flow more than enough to handle anything anyone with an SC and a cam will put thru them.

[99Alero_Boy]

from my understanding and talking with john (apofc) the primaries on the TOGs are smaller than the 3500 port openings and will create a restrictions......

[AaronGTR]

Not according to the guys on 60v6. Don't remember his name off the top of my head but someone over there did a complete 3500 top end swap to his 3400 that had TOG's on it and he said they lined up perfectly. Besides, there's no way TOG's could possibly flow less than the stock manifolds. The 3500 exhaust manifolds are a big improvement over the 3400's, but they still aren't headers, and they probably won't fit in the GA engine bay without modifications.

[aleroboy]

the headers could cause a minor restriction over purpose built headers. which is what I will be runing but my goals are a little higher than most and i need every hp I can get

[AleroB888]

Why such a difference between your the times listed in the sig? I would think that the cooler temps and better 60 would have yielded a better ET?

Altitude, altitude, altitude! 5,860 feet at Bandimere. Other things equal, I estimate the difference to be about 6-7 tenths between the two racetracks, for my car.

[AleroB888]

Update 2

Here's the approximate weight of the system's components so far:
Intercooler ...........10 lb.
Pump ...........6-7 lb.
Tank + hoses...........8-10 lb.
Fittings + brackets...10-15 lb.
Water in system.......17-24 lb.

The pump used is a Meziere WP-136S. The best place I could find to install it was right behind the fans:
http://shutter14.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/04/009/6B/E3/AA/04/HlobDYy0D2-6Dhn-+Z06+hh+Kx6UEUkS0300.jpg
This pump draws 5.4 amps in my setup, close to it's rating. However I am only getting a flow rate of 4 GPM, far short of the 20 GPM claimed by the maker. Some of that could be due to the long runs of hose used -- 24 feet of 5/8 in., and 18 feet of 3/4 in. The best reference book I have is Corky Bell's Supercharged! , in which he recommends pumps of at least 10 GPM. (I made sure at least some water got to the pump before switching on, and used the air bleed, but maybe I was not careful enough.) In spite of that, the system seems to do the job well. The intercooler holds about 35 ounces of water, and during a 15 second WOT run, it's water would be "changed" between 3 or 4 times even with only a 4 GPM flow rate.

[Sprucegagt]

Most electric pumps prefer to be mounted close to the supply tank. They do a better job pushing fluid versus pulling it. Before changing the pump try mounting it as close to your tank as possible.

[99Alero_Boy]

that would be my suggestion as well.....

[AleroB888]

Interim report:
After a few trips out to Bandimere Speedway here in Denver, and one session at Beech Bend Park in Bowling Green, KY, I can report some positive results. I didn't get any new "personal best" times in the quarter, but I got my best eighth-mile yet, and may have gone 13's if not for hitting the brakes hard at the end of the run.

Timeslip#1 B888 (Bowling Green, KY, Sept. 17, temp. in mid-80's):
http://shutter15.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/01/003/3C/DF/06/09/wXx-t47GtC4PGlhZiwsiWcnEpYSMmAtr0300.jpg

Car data:
The MAF was tuned with a borrowed HP Tuners last winter/spring with good results, but I never could get the hang of retuning the spark tables. So I still use the Maf-translator to change the timing, +4 deg./base, -0.2 to -2.5 deg. retarded at WOT. Engine and trans are stock internals, stock pulleys, using Envoy fuel injectors, Autolite 103 plugs, BFG P225/50/15 DOT slicks.
Weight of car: 3075 LB (spare tire, jack, mats, Magnaflow resonator removed.)
Charge temp. sensor mounted in UIM near ignition coils.
Engine cooled down before most runs, 175-190 deg. F. at starting line.

[Sprucegagt]

How much boost are you running? If it is in double digits or close to it, those Envoy injectors won't cut it.

[Gizm0815]

good reaction time and the 60 foot looks good too little more tunning and i think u can see 12s

[AleroB888]

Test and Tune, Aug 23, '06 (Bandimere Speedway)
I removed the alcohol injector and went to Bandimere for the first test of the intercooler, and (of course), we had near record-breaking heat here.
This first test session did not go very well. Ambient temps were in the 90's. Even though I was getting to the starting line with the water tank at about 39 to 45 deg. F., and managed to keep the plenum temp. down to around 80 deg., I had trouble getting into the 14's. But worse than that, by the time I was hitting the 330 ft. mark, the engine was acting like it had some kind of misfire. After the sun went down the ambient temp. went into the low 80's, and I richened up the MAF a step at a time for the final runs. Now the Alero made some solid 14.5 passes, but was still running a little rough. Understandable, I guess, since the MAF had been tuned for the alcohol injector. But the neat thing was that the plenum temp. never increased during those iced runs, and for a couple passes even dropped into the upper 70's.

[Sprucegagt]

Do you have some kind of scanning software/hardware? You really need it before doing any more runs. I am willing to bet you have some serious KR. Also I doubt the MAF translator is reducing your timing by as much as you think it is.

[AaronGTR]

With the intercooler and alcohol injection you shouldn't even have to reduce timing. In fact you should be able to add timing if running premium fuel which you should be. With all that work I can't believe you aren't running consistent 13's. I have no intercooler and no alcohol injection and running solid 14.4's all day, and that was actually before the cam, injectors, and any tuning. It should be faster now. I agree with Spruce, you need your own tuning and scanning software. Those injectors are probably maxed already and you might be getting KR (that could explain the misfiring feeling you described if it's severe enough). You need to add more fuel and get rid of the KR and then you should be able to add some timing back. Timing is where the power is. ;) And ditch the MAF translator. It's just a band-aid and not precise enough for tuning a serious setup like you have.

[99Alero_Boy]

Yes he didn't run a 13 but here at altitude he is running the same times, he just had some tuning problems at sea level. Your car running a 14.4 at sea level would run a 15.0 or higher here at Bandimere where we race........so consistent 13s here i think not.........

[AleroB888]

How much boost are you running? If it is in double digits or close to it, those Envoy injectors won't cut it.
I am still running "only" 8-10 LB boost, and when time allows, I will upgrade the fuel injectors. But except for the Aug 23 test session at Bandimere (that's 5,860 feet up, now) I run the intercooler with alcohol injection, which helps the fuel situation a bit.
So the Autolite plugs are ok, then? :)

[AleroB888]

Do you have some kind of scanning software/hardware? You really need it before doing any more runs. I am willing to bet you have some serious KR. Also I doubt the MAF translator is reducing your timing by as much as you think it is.

Things did get better in later tuning sessions, and from now on, I think I'll only mention the good ones! :)
Last winter and into spring I made well over a hundred WOT scans with HP tuners, on and off the track, and no question, knock retard was a major gremlin. An HP Scanner is on my wish list for sure, but I don't think I can get one before the season ends. Low-boost, part-throttle KR was also annoying. My guess is the biggest limitation is the one-bar MAP.
The merits of the MAF-translater vs. HP tuners, etc., can be debated, but my experience was that many times when re-flashing the VCM just before a run at the track, the Alero did not run well, almost as if it hit a rev limiter. Then it cleared up on the next run, but that was too much a waste of time. The MAF-trans has no such problems, and in my opinion it is very effective. That discussion should go in the Custom Tuning forum, though.
The main point right now is the intercooler is doing it's job. I report, you decide :)

[AaronGTR]

Yes he didn't run a 13 but here at altitude he is running the same times, he just had some tuning problems at sea level. Your car running a 14.4 at sea level would run a 15.0 or higher here at Bandimere where we race........so consistent 13s here i think not.........


I'm not exactly at sea level there partner. ;) That 14.4 was also a long time ago with the stock injectors, stock cam, and a badly slipping transmission. It's surely running faster now and I still don't have an intercooler or alky kit. What I do have is much larger injectors. All I'm really saying though is with all the equipment he's got in that setup he should be running a lot faster times even at that altitude, so there's obviously a problem with the tune and KR, so of course I think tuning is where he should be focusing his efforts because obviously that setup has a lot more left in it. Thats all.

[lastyear4gt]

I have a 2.4" pulley which is as low as I'll go with mine. If you have an underdrive CP, then you'll be fine. The smallest GM used on it's SC/T concept cars was 2.2" though and I don't know if I'd go smaller than that. You'll have to calculate the blower rpm for your pulley combination.

What kind of boost is it making?

[AaronGTR]

What kind of boost is it making?


With the 2.4" pulley right now, it's making about 6psi in the manifold. The important thing isn't boost pressure though, but blower rpm and airflow. The 2.4" used to make 11psi, but after ported heads/headers/cam it only makes 6psi because of the removed restrictions allowing the air into and out of the cylinders instead of backing up and making pressure in the manifold. So you know a 2.4" pulley is moving more air into the cylinders but now at only 6psi and less compression means less heat and more air density. That's the important thing. :)

[AleroB888]

With the intercooler and alcohol injection you shouldn't even have to reduce timing. In fact you should be able to add timing if running premium fuel which you should be. With all that work I can't believe you aren't running consistent 13's.

You are right, I was able to add much more timing than I first thought, and it took a lot of test runs to sort things out. I'll post a summary of the final "Test and Tune" session when I get time, but meanwhile, here's my best yet at high altitude:

http://shutter13.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/02/001/77/B9/F5/A7/y--j7ZNMvFhJ5BOOAfc0RKwvUsPLx-mW0300.jpg

You have to keep in mind, that to get that result at this altitude, the SC is being pushed to it's limit. I estimate mid-to-high 13's for tracks under 1000 ft.

[AaronGTR]

That would probably be a good estimate running 14.1 at your altitude now. :) Keep working on it man!

[AleroB888]

To backtrack just a bit, since Sept.10th I have been using a 2.1 in. (2.125 actual) pulley on the SC, where previously a 2.2 in. (2.19 actual) was installed. This probably just made up for boost loss through the intercooler, but I have not done any detailed measurements yet. The alcohol injection system was redesigned, streamlined, and I believe much improved. Track times averaged about 14.2 to 14.4.

Test and Tune, Oct.11, '06 (Bandimere Speedway)
For this session I installed a 2.0 in. pulley on the SC. This pulley was an iron alternator pulley, and I had to make an adapter hub to use it. So it's not the lightest or best balanced, I'm sure, but good enough for short-term testing. To take up the slack in the belt, a 2.2 in. pulley was installed on the alternator. Out on the road, I was already impressed with this change. Before, the boost would peak out at 8 or 9 psi, then fall to 6 psi and hold steady. Now it peaked at 10 psi, then dropped to 7, but as the car accelerated, the boost increased back up to 8, then to 9, at which point we ran out of road. That was with the full exhaust system,
For the track tests, muffler and resonator were removed. Ambient temps. stayed around 60 deg.
The wheelspin was now severe, so after a few passes I decreased the base timing to +0 deg. and started to add timing at WOT in 2 degree increments:

+6 deg.....14.149 @ 96.00, 2.089 60 ft.
+8 deg.....14.113 @ 96.76, 2.102 60 ft.
+10 deg...14.104 @ 96.64, 2.111 60 ft.

******
Fall Racing Series, Oct. 14, '06, (Bandimere Speedway)
I went back to the track Saturday morning, as this was probably my last chance to run this year. I left the timing set at +10 WOT. Ambient temps between 60 and 70 deg.
1st trial......14.056 @ 97.43, 2.090 60 ft.
2nd trail.....14.092 @ 97.20, 2.097 60 ft.

Before the first round, Greg (dumbass) accidently unhooked the IC pump, so of course the car ran way off the dial-in.
1st Rd SP....14.163 @ 96.45, 2.088 60 ft.

Still trying to get into the 13's, and not wanting the season to end on a sour note, I ran down to the tech shed and coughed up another $40.00 to run in another class.
1st Rd Pro ET....14.028 @ 95.10, 2.046 60 ft.

http://shutter12.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/04/006/6F/FB/72/F4/cAjYPUzwvmDogtY-sYr8xu5ae8Zf61k+0300.jpg

http://shutter14.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/03/004/3B/76/6F/48/Q2UelyI0J5RvQxTrLSGTTl4bsIjGYyTq0300.jpg

http://shutter13.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/02/005/3D/DF/92/60/Eva1wm+rK55p0oH-W8EJB60i41Bjk1eq0300.jpg

http://shutter12.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/01/009/5B/F7/AE/1F/a3lYQ-mdOyC3r6-mADpK8+Poc2+RBruD0300.jpg

[Sprucegagt]

How bad was the KR during those runs? It's odd that you ran a faster time when the outside temps were warmer (60-70*) instead of colder (60*).

[AaronGTR]

That could be attributed to traction. It's harder to get the tires to hook on a cold track, especially if he isn't using slicks.

[99Alero_Boy]

pretty sure he is running DRs

[AaronGTR]

Even DR's don't hook as well on a cold track.

[SpyhunteR]

DR's for the waste of money of the year award.

[AaronGTR]

Not a waste of money, just not as good as slicks... if you can use them.

If you don't have a tranny that will handle slicks, or can't fit 15" wheels with slicks (like me), then DR's are the next best thing. And I'm sure they are much better than the worn crappy all season performance radials I'm using, or even some good summer only tires (at least for straight line traction that is).

[SpyhunteR]

Not a waste of money, just not as good as slicks... if you can use them.

If you don't have a tranny that will handle slicks, or can't fit 15" wheels with slicks (like me), then DR's are the next best thing. And I'm sure they are much better than the worn crappy all season performance radials I'm using, or even some good summer only tires (at least for straight line traction that is).

my tranny's stock. i know many guys that use slicks on an internally stock tranny. you just have to learn when to catch the tires on the tarmac so that they don't rip your cars guts out.

[AleroB888]

How bad was the KR during those runs?

When I can keep the ECT down to 165-175 deg. and the plenum temp. under control, and avoid wheelspin, KR is not a problem, though I have to admit I've done no scans since last June. The only glitch with the 2.0 pulley was that when the trans shifted from 1st to 2nd, there was a loud pop through the exhaust, but no sense of the car slowing down. But my thought is, if that engine was knockin', it wouldn't be rockin'.

[AleroB888]

How much boost are you running? If it is in double digits or close to it, those Envoy injectors won't cut it.

How about these as replacements, dimension-wise? The Accel types look like a close fit.

http://www.msdignition.com/fuel_5.htm

http://go.mrgasket.com/pdf/DFIFuelInjectors.pdf

[AaronGTR]

Why start experimenting with other injectors when we already know two larger sizes that will work? You can use the 36lb/hr injectors from the grand prix GTP or the 42lb/hr Lucas injectors you can get from ZZP or several other places. All you need is the correct harness connectors (bosch style) and we already know they fit and work well.

[SpyhunteR]

42lb's or bust.

[AleroB888]

Why start experimenting with other injectors when we already know two larger sizes that will work? You can use the 36lb/hr injectors from the grand prix GTP or the 42lb/hr Lucas injectors you can get from ZZP or several other places. All you need is the correct harness connectors (bosch style) and we already know they fit and work well.

I would like to use the 36#, but I thought I read elsewhere in the forum that xonelith had trouble getting the GTP's to fit. Is the 42# Lucas an exact size fit? If you are using them, how much did drivability suffer? I have an extra 1999 wiring harness that I can use if necessary.

[AaronGTR]

A few other people have used the 36# and claimed they fit fine. I've never installed them myself so I can't say. I'm using the 42#'s and they fit perfectly. Drivability is fine... it's all in how well you program the computer. If you have a '99 harness to use it should be an easy swap.

[xonelith]

The 36's do fit, but depending on the year you get the injectors from, they may be a bit shorter. Mine were from a 98 GTP and were a bit shorter (talking a mm or so), so the brackets were bent slightly to accomodate. Hasn't done anything detrimental yet. Also, Milzy sells a full setup for our motors with the 36's. I wish that was out before I did mine....LOL

[AleroB888]

42lb's or bust.

Here is a scan graph with the Envoy injectors, taken on the highway with system at full operating temp., with ambient temp. in the 60's, IC water slightly above ambient.
As you can see, the Injectors are slightly maxed out.:)
The KR shown is more typical of a real-world situation, not the more ideal racetrack test conditions.

http://shutter09.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/08/005/77/6D/BE/46/4PeLzyvr0sNwQeohlvclEsihWJ+C6jjT0300.jpg

Ordered the Lucas 42.5's from ZZP Tuesday morning, got them Thursday afternoon. After considerable trial and error, I set the IFR to 36., recalibrated the MAF. I did some scans earlier, and the Injector Duty Cycle now maxes out at about 60%. A lot of tuning remains to be done.

While I'm at it, here's some shots of the IM:
http://shutter10.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/10/007/7F/EB/20/95/P7qc9RgIgkP8yaOvE4C3XyMfuC6h-jk-0300.jpg

http://shutter09.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/08/007/2C/BB/46/51/7V2kBGt830fxQcaKOpCDyuiAavFVCqiE0300.jpg

[SikMindz]

Whoa...cool. What's the diameter of the inlet?

[Sprucegagt]

Why so little boost at WOT? Your right to Envoy injectors are not doing a thing for you. Your KR should be 0 with the new 42.5 injectors. Just remember KR is an abnormal condition. If everything is tuned right, you should get no KR ever.

Whoa...cool. What's the diameter of the inlet?

If I had to guess I'd say 65 mm.

[99Alero_Boy]

i'm pretty sure it matches all the intercooler piping at 2.5 in...

[SikMindz]

i'm pretty sure it matches all the intercooler piping at 2.5 in...

*smack* Right..good point.

Doh!

[AleroB888]

Update 3 (Final chapter?? )

For the first test and tune this year, I had two main objectives:
1) Run without the alcohol injection and Maf Translator, but still duplicate or beat last year's best ET.
2) Test a new muffler system (required for the class I run in).

These would be the first runs with the new Lucas Injectors, IFR set at 38. LTFT's were staying consistently in the negatives, but not too bad. Target afr tables left at stock. A pressure switch activates the IC pump during boost.
Last year I used the Maf Translator set at +10 deg. WOT and ran a best of 14.028. With the Maf Translator removed, HP tuners is used to add timing in the IAT spark table at the lower temps., and subtract it at the higher temps. ....
So for Cylinder Airmass at or above 0.68 g/cyl,
+10 deg. timing @ 50 deg F,
+10 deg. @ 68 deg. F
no change at 86 and 104 deg. F.,
minus 4 deg. > 122 deg. F.
High Octane Spark 21 deg.@ WOT, Low Oct. Spark 18 deg. @ WOT

Test and Tune, April 14, '07 (Bandimere Speedway) (ambient temp 60-70 deg.)

1) 14.184 @ 96.75, 2.126 60 ft.
2) 14.125 @ 98.05, 2.200 60 ft.
3) 14.172 @ 95.86, 2.126 60 ft.
Notes: with Magnaflow muffler # 14828 installed, IC water temp 40-50 deg., IAT in IM 72 deg at start, ECT 185-195 deg.

4) 14.057 @ 96.96, 2.099 60 ft.
5) 14.071 @ 96.55, 2.071 60 ft.
Notes: Muffler removed. (system uses 3" Magnaflow cat, no resonator)

Conclusion: I really like that new muffler, sounds and looks good, only cost about a tenth of a second ET. The spark tuning using the IAT table works well at the track and on the street. The intercooler system is much more efficient than the draw-through alcohol system I was using, but since you can make one for about 25 bucks, I still consider it cost effective.
Unfortunately, working the rest of the bugs out of the system will have to wait, as it appears that the supercharger has outlasted the stock engine. :)
I'll probably follow up on that in other threads.....

[AleroB888]

5) 14.071 @ 96.55, 2.071 60 ft.


Plan B

Since B888 is down for repairs, I was forced to bring out another vehicle which has been waiting in the wings. This one is an '03 Alero GL, very clean with only 24K on it. This provided me with a chance to get baseline tests and later try out some tuning ideas, but also I want to demonstrate just how much altitude affects performance.

Quaker State ET Series (Bandimere Speedway, April 28, '07) alt. 5860 ft. (ambient temp. 65-75 deg. F)

1) 16.956 @ 81.94, 2.485 60 ft.
(bone stock)
2) 17.120 @ 81.58, 2.521 60 ft.
(swapped in K&N drop-in replacement air filter)
3) 17.117 @ 81.74, 2.526 60 ft.
4) 17.325 @ 81.12, 2.561 60 ft.

The '03 is one or two tenths quicker than the '99 was before modding. The temptation is to just take all the mods off the '99 , transfer them over, and WOOOOOSH!..... into the 13's....

But then again, maybe I'll just settle into a long bench-racing season like everybody else. Maybe start a little trash-talking.....

[AleroB888]

Unfortunately, working the rest of the bugs out of the system will have to wait, as it appears that the supercharger has outlasted the stock engine.

Interim report:
I'm still shopping around for some 36# injectors, so temporarily the Envoys (28#) were reinstalled, after an LIM gasket change (actually, there are some good technical reasons not to go as high as 42# with an otherwise stock fuel system).
I installed a Fel-Pro metal LIM gasket set some weeks ago, and to my surprise, it seems I now have much more boost than before. I de-tuned the car somewhat, changed the 2.0 SC pulley to 2.2, did a few tweaks here and there, and took a road trip down closer to sea level. I got about 29 MPG highway. I drove 80 miles south of where I am staying to Bowling Green, KY, and got a couple of runs in. I'll fill in the details when time allows.

Beech Bend Raceway Park:
13.816 @ 99.19, 2.096 60 ft.

[AaronGTR]

Interim report:
I'm still shopping around for some 36# injectors, so temporarily the Envoys (28#) were reinstalled, after an LIM gasket change (actually, there are some good technical reasons not to go as high as 42# with an otherwise stock fuel system).


I'm curious to know what these technical reasons are and where you found them? I and plenty of other people have been running 42lb injectors for some time with no adverse affects. All I have besides the injectors is an AFPR, and although I have a larger fuel pump waiting to go in just in case, the stock pump has not run out of flow yet.

[PhantomLover007]

Crazy yo. Seems as if you couldn't fit anymore in there if you wanted to. Looks nice though.

[tejohnson]

I'm curious to know what these technical reasons are and where you found them? I and plenty of other people have been running 42lb injectors for some time with no adverse affects. All I have besides the injectors is an AFPR, and although I have a larger fuel pump waiting to go in just in case, the stock pump has not run out of flow yet.


Aaron, you have to actually give it gas before you max the fuel pump ;)

[AaronGTR]

Aaron, you have to actually give it gas before you max the fuel pump ;)



Haha, where you been Todd? Oh trust me, I've done a few full throttle pulls with it already. I've just avoided the full quarter mile runs and shifting until I get further along in the tuning process.

[AleroB888]

I'm curious to know what these technical reasons are and where you found them? I and plenty of other people have been running 42lb injectors for some time with no adverse affects. All I have besides the injectors is an AFPR, and although I have a larger fuel pump waiting to go in just in case, the stock pump has not run out of flow yet.

I don't have the material in front of me now, but in the book Supercharged! by Corky Bell, two points were made:
1) In his opinion, stock fuel rails could handle an injector increase of about +25%, higher than that may cause uneven flow,
2) The low level resolving ability of the computer, pulse width vs. flow rate may not give a decent idle.
Bell was speaking in general there, and I may not be using the exact technical terms, but you get the idea.

In another thread a very long time ago, you mentioned having some kind of idling issue for some reason, but didn't follow up on it. More recently you posted this:

.......I'm using lucas 42lb injectors right now which are good for 400whp. I'll probably never go that high but I've got the room. The GTP injectors will idle better though because of their spray pattern so I'd start with those.

I used the Lucas 42.5#'s through last winter and into the spring. They didn't seem to like starting up cold at 32 Deg. F., or even less than 60 Deg. for that matter.
I was getting misfire codes thrown on every startup in very cold weather. The injectors were only part of the equation, but I suspect them to be the major players.

I realize that a larger injector than 36# may be necessary for max power, but my short-term plan is to get the 36#'s, then try to tune the car to their capability.

[SpyhunteR]

I don't have the material in front of me now, but in the book Supercharged! by Corky Bell, two points were made:
1) In his opinion, stock fuel rails could handle an injector increase of about +25%, higher than that may cause uneven flow,
2) The low level resolving ability of the computer, pulse width vs. flow rate may not give a decent idle.
Bell was speaking in general there, and I may not be using the exact technical terms, but you get the idea.

In another thread a very long time ago, you mentioned having some kind of idling issue for some reason, but didn't follow up on it. More recently you posted this:



I used the Lucas 42.5#'s through last winter and into the spring. They didn't seem to like starting up cold at 32 Deg. F., or even less than 60 Deg. for that matter.
I was getting misfire codes thrown on every startup in very cold weather. The injectors were only part of the equation, but I suspect them to be the major players.

I realize that a larger injector than 36# may be necessary for max power, but my short-term plan is to get the 36#'s, then try to tune the car to their capability.


My stock fuel injectors were rated at about 260cc right now I'm running 750cc, no idle issue, and on a stock fuel rail, except for the added adjustable fuel pressure regulator.. no fueling issues there..

I believe my resolution seems to be pretty good, and hasn't been showing any hiccups on the dyno whenever the car was last on the dyno for two hours straight.

go for broke man, shoot for hte moon and work out the kinks along the way.

[AaronGTR]

I don't have the material in front of me now, but in the book Supercharged! by Corky Bell, two points were made:
1) In his opinion, stock fuel rails could handle an injector increase of about +25%, higher than that may cause uneven flow,
2) The low level resolving ability of the computer, pulse width vs. flow rate may not give a decent idle.
Bell was speaking in general there, and I may not be using the exact technical terms, but you get the idea.

Yeah, I've read "maximum boost" by Corky Bell, a similar book. He definitely knows what he's talking about and those are both valid point but also very generalized. They may apply more to older cars or extreme builds. Our modern pcm's have very high resolution because GM has continually increased the processing power over the years, and the stock fuel rails are pretty significant in size and should support a lot of power without an inbalance from one side to the other as long as the pump supplies enough flow. In other words you'd upgrade the pump before making custom fuel rails.

In another thread a very long time ago, you mentioned having some kind of idling issue for some reason, but didn't follow up on it. More recently you posted this:

......I'm using lucas 42lb injectors right now which are good for 400whp. I'll probably never go that high but I've got the room. The GTP injectors will idle better though because of their spray pattern so I'd start with those.

While the above statement is true, it doesn't mean the 42lb injectors can't idle well. I believe most of my idle problems where due to other issues. My idle was really bad at first because my O2 sensor was dirty. Then my 65mm TB needed adjustment and I recalibrated the TPS position and that helped. Recently I replaced the granitelli MAF I was using with a stock LS1 MAF and that improved it again. Now I barely have any issue with the idle at all and once I finish VE and MAF tuning I think it will go away all together.

I used the Lucas 42.5#'s through last winter and into the spring. They didn't seem to like starting up cold at 32 Deg. F., or even less than 60 Deg. for that matter.
I was getting misfire codes thrown on every startup in very cold weather. The injectors were only part of the equation, but I suspect them to be the major players.

I realize that a larger injector than 36# may be necessary for max power, but my short-term plan is to get the 36#'s, then try to tune the car to their capability.

Good point. The cold weather could certainly be an issue with the those injectors, probably because of the cold engine and cold fuel and the spray pattern which doesn't atomize as well until the engine is warm. I didn't even think of that since I don't drive my car in the winter anymore, and I probably never will with this car. I've never had any problem at tempsabove 50 though. I think that could have been an issue with your setup. Increasing the idle speed for cold start up and increasing the warm up time and fueling for cold start conditions to warm the engine faster probably could have a addressed the issue, but would take some experimenting to find the right settings.

[lastyear4gt]

Im running 42.5lb/hr injectors with absolutely ZERO idle problems.

[AleroB888]

Im running 42.5lb/hr injectors with absolutely ZERO idle problems.

What are your long-term fuel trims looking like?

[lastyear4gt]

When we tuned the car the were between 0 & -4

[AleroB888]

.......... I'll fill in the details when time allows.

I used a more conservative setup/tune this time out, since I had the 28# injectors back in. Engine and tranny are stock, added water pump underdrive pulley, 2.2 in. pulley on SC, Autolite 104 plugs, IFR set at 23....ported stock MAF, air filter bypassed.
BFG DRs mounted on Malibu wheels, they are 5 lbs lighter than stock per combo, and one inch shorter diameter....
The SC was peaking out at 10 psi at the intake manifold. As best as I can measure, the Spearco is only causing a bit more than 1 psi loss, but that seems too good, so we'll call it 1 1/2 psi. I am estimating 11 1/2 psi boost out of the SC....
3-inch Magnaflow cat and muffler....this was too loud for me on the trip, so I plan to add a resonator at the end of the year....
IC water iced to around 40 deg, Pressure switch kicks in pump only under boost. This means the IC gets gradually colder during the run.
The transmission tuning and most engine tables remain stock, except Fuel Cutoff RPM vs Gear was raised slightly. All torque management stuff is stock. I am using a switch that forces the tranny to max the line pressure, but I forgot to use it on the first run.
The rest of the tuning you can see in the scan pic below.

Test and Tune, June 26, '07 (Beech Bend Raceway Park, Bowling Green, KY) (temp. 85 deg.)

1. 13.816 @ 99.19, 2.096 60 ft.
2. 13.901 @ 99.19, 2.167 60 ft.
( Lost traction, left the line at too high rpm for the D.R's)
*Session ended due to rain*

This is a scan of the first run:

http://shutter11.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/14/009/79/AF/22/16/ObfMG7V-OxvC+sZihYsqxWoy4EzrBzw90300.jpg

Just for comparison, I left the setup/tuning exactly the same when I next raced at altitude:

Club Clash, July 21, '07 (Bandimere Speedway, 5860 ft.)

1. 14.985 @ 92.08, 2.263 60 ft.
2. 14.886 @ 92.03, 2.227 60 ft.
3. TPS failed

This is the scan for #1:

http://shutter13.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/15/001/7B/7B/80/DB/xVBENZqYXkh4EE7k9zanMKf1vqqBZiYo0300.jpg

Note how much fuel the PCM pulls out, and the much lower MAF reading and Injector Duty Cycle than at sea level. So what this means is I could use more boost and more timing up here. The problem is, I could not then take that "tune" down to sea level, because the torque limiters would kick in. As it was, the PCM had some trouble adjusting to the sea level conditions after driving 1100 miles from up here, most of that on cruise control. Nothing I'm not used to by now. :)

[SpyhunteR]

can't you disable the torque limiter nonsense?

[AaronGTR]

First thing you need to do is take out the ported stock MAF since that is a very bad move, especially since you said most of the engine tables are still stock. You aren't getting a correct airflow reading so it's going to screw up your fueling. You can get an LS1 MAF off ebay cheap and just import the table with your tuner. That way you get a larger MAF with an accurate reading for the pcm.

[AleroB888]

can't you disable the torque limiter nonsense?

I'll see if I can go a few tenths lower E.T. before doing that. It's not a factor at my power level now, unless I make a change to the system and the PCM has not had time to adjust itself. But I'm also a beginner at tuning, so I'll stick to the more basic stuff.

[AleroB888]

First thing you need to do is take out the ported stock MAF since that is a very bad move, especially since you said most of the engine tables are still stock. You aren't getting a correct airflow reading so it's going to screw up your fueling. You can get an LS1 MAF off ebay cheap and just import the table with your tuner. That way you get a larger MAF with an accurate reading for the pcm.

No, I've been using the ported MAF for over 2 years now, I just never mentioned it before. During that time I did recalibrate it successfully. It did take a lot of time on the road to do it, using a borrowed tuner at first.

I am also not convinced that an off-the-shelf stock MAF calibration won't need at least some changing when it's in a position further from the TB, the TB is larger, the MAP sensor is maxed out at part throttle with low boost, etc.

The LS1 change is a good idea, but in fact at the boost I'm running now, even that is going to restrict the flow. I am using an aftermarket ported LS1 style MAF on loan right now, and doing tests on it.

I think the bottom line is, does the calibration produce the result you are looking for in drivability, and the results at the track....

[PhantomLover007]

Man that thing is nice..

[Sprucegagt]

No, I've been using the ported MAF for over 2 years now, I just never mentioned it before. During that time I did recalibrate it successfully. It did take a lot of time on the road to do it, using a borrowed tuner at first.

I am also not convinced that an off-the-shelf stock MAF calibration won't need at least some changing when it's in a position further from the TB, the TB is larger, the MAP sensor is maxed out at part throttle with low boost, etc.

The LS1 change is a good idea, but in fact at the boost I'm running now, even that is going to restrict the flow. I am using an aftermarket ported LS1 style MAF on loan right now, and doing tests on it.

I think the bottom line is, does the calibration produce the result you are looking for in drivability, and the results at the track....

An LS1 MAF will not restrict your airflow at low boost levels, meaning anything below 10 PSI. The only thing porting a MAF will do, is screw up it's readings.

[AleroB888]

An LS1 MAF will not restrict your airflow at low boost levels, meaning anything below 10 PSI. The only thing porting a MAF will do, is screw up it's readings.

At WOT in 1st gear (worst-case) I tested the ported LS1 MAF with no upsteam tubing and still measured about 0.5 peak in. Hg vacuum between the TB and MAF. I'm betting a stock LS1 MAF with screen is going to be twice that.

After connecting the tubing going into the fender, without the filter, I got just under 1 in. Hg vacuum, and the total CAI , filter + MAF was almost 2 in. Hg. This is almost a 6 % loss of flow, therefore power loss.

The filter is a K&N # 1796, 6 X 9.5 in., mounts horizontal, just under the headlight. And that is the biggest sucker I can fit in there. This might be the best I can do with the space available.

http://shutter13.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/15/001/5D/FF/38/8A/p83yoMYLYp71WzB2Vri7RjKnJtMpto2Y0300.jpg

[Sprucegagt]

How are you equating vacuum to flow? Both values are completely independant of the other. It also sounds like your intake tubing is undersized for your application.

[SpyhunteR]

An LS1 MAF will not restrict your airflow at low boost levels, meaning anything below 10 PSI. The only thing porting a MAF will do, is screw up it's readings.

what he said. The LS1 MAF is NOT your bottle neck.

[AleroB888]

How are you equating vacuum to flow? Both values are completely independant of the other. It also sounds like your intake tubing is undersized for your application.

Vacuum is a measure of pressure drop (below atmospheric), which is related to flow. If you increase pressure, as with a supercharger, you increase flow. If you decrease pressure into a partial vacuum, as with a restriction, you decrease flow.

Yes, the intake tubing is a big part of the restriction. Higher than 3.25 in. diameter will be hard to fit in there, but I'll give it a shot.

[AleroB888]

what he said. The LS1 MAF is NOT your bottle neck.

I never said it was a bottleneck, and I did not test a stock LS1 MAF. I did say the ported LS1 MAF still dropped some pressure, and I expect the stock one would drop more. If I can find a stock one, I'll test it. I do need some ideas on the intake tubing and filter.

[lastyear4gt]

If you wanna talk about loss of flow, look into the rubber bellows tubing you have in the intake system.

[AleroB888]

If you wanna talk about loss of flow, look into the rubber bellows tubing you have in the intake system.

Yeah, you're right. I need 3.25 or 3.5 in. mandrel-bent aluminum with a tight 90 deg. and 45 deg. radius, or make something out of carbon fiber.

[Sprucegagt]

Vacuum is a measure of pressure drop (below atmospheric), which is related to flow. If you increase pressure, as with a supercharger, you increase flow. If you decrease pressure into a partial vacuum, as with a restriction, you decrease flow.

Yes, the intake tubing is a big part of the restriction. Higher than 3.25 in. diameter will be hard to fit in there, but I'll give it a shot.

Unless you show the equation relating vacuum with flow, then you only got half of it right. Vacuum is a measure of pressure, while flow is a measure of velocity.

[SpyhunteR]

under this logic, my 2.25 and 2.5 plumbing is FAR too small for the power I'm making and the flow i'm looking for.

[AleroB888]

under this logic, my 2.25 and 2.5 plumbing is FAR too small for the power I'm making and the flow i'm looking for.

I was discussing what is upstream from the blower in my particular case. I have 2.5 in. tubing to and from the intercooler, which seems to do fine. What do you use ahead of your turbo when you race?

[SpyhunteR]

I was discussing what is upstream from the blower in my particular case. I have 2.5 in. tubing to and from the intercooler, which seems to do fine. What do you use ahead of your turbo when you race?

a filter.

you should start cutting some of that fender out and get rid of that accordian looking black tube.

[lastyear4gt]

I managed to fit 3.5" tubing through my fender to the air filter, and that is WITH the battery still in it's stock location. Took some time and trimming, but it worked.

[AaronGTR]

On a normal NA car when you go WOT your vacuum drops from the 18-22 in/Hg range (depending on mods) to zero vacuum because you are opening everything in the intake up to atmospheric pressure. When you have a super or turbo charger you are pulling air in faster than the atmosphere can push it in by itself (this is the whole point). This means that there is always going to be some kind of vacuum in the intake since there is a pressure differential.

However, since you are normally at 0 in/Hg and an NA car, and only seeing 1-2 in/Hg on a boosted car, that is a very close number. If you were still seeing 10-14 in/Hg then I'd say you have a restriction. 1-2 in/Hg means it is very free flowing and there isn't enough restriction to even measure a power loss. Basically that little blower and a 3.4L v6 will not pull enough air thru a MAF designed for a 5.7L v8 to cause any kind of restriction. If you are going to do instrumented testing, at least do it on sound scientific principles and understand the meaning of what you are testing and the reason for it.

[aleroboy]

there is a reason the LS1 guys go to the larger truck style maf also used on the C5 zo6.
the stock ls1 maf became a restriction.


however I agree that 1-2 in is a very small restriction.
this could be caused by a number of things but basically anything in front of the tb to the sc will cause a restriction. this is why the race cars at the track trying to extract everything they can out of their engine hardly ever run even a filter before their turbo or supercharger.
obviously you have to keep some intake there to at least the maf

[AleroB888]

Unless you show the equation relating vacuum with flow, then you only got half of it right. Vacuum is a measure of pressure, while flow is a measure of velocity.

We are not "relating vacuum with flow" which implies a reading at low rpm. The test is at WOT, full boost, worst case.

Keep in mind that a reading of 2 in. Hg of vacuum is still a measurement of pressure, just on a scale referenced to atmospheric, which is about 30 in. Hg. I don't have a gauge that measures on the absolute scale, so a vacuum/pressure gauge was used. We only needed to know the percentage drop in pressure, the scale used didn't matter, and we also don't need to find the actual velocities involved.

On the absolute scale, I measured 28 in. Hg, so delta-h is still 2, the percentage was 2 / 30 = 6.66 .

v2 = 2gh , Where v = velocity, g = acceleration of gravity, h = pressure

Here are other applications to find the actual velocity and flow rate:

"The Pitot tube measures flow velocity by converting the velocity to pressure at the stagnation point at a small entry to the manometer tube pointing into the flow. This works for air as well, with an appropriate pressure gauge, reminding us that air behaves as nearly incompressible at speeds well below the speed of sound."

http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/tech/fluids/pitot.gif

"Another important example is the Venturi flow meter, where the fluid is made to pass through passages of different areas. The rate of flow is determined from the difference in pressures (heights of manometers) at the two sections. The difference in velocity is found from continuity, and then the difference in pressure from Bernoulli. The increase in velocity in the throat is accompanied by a decrease in pressure there. If r = A1/A2, then v1 = [2g(dH)/(r2 - 1)]1/2."[ dH = delta-h = change in pressure]

http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/tech/fluids/venturi.gif

http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/tech/fluids/bernoul.htm

[AleroB888]

An LS1 MAF will not restrict your airflow at low boost levels, meaning anything below 10 PSI. The only thing porting a MAF will do, is screw up it's readings.

Well, so far it looks like you were right. I found a stock LS1-style MAF in a junkyard, and tested it on my car. I could measure no difference in airflow between it and the ported aftermarket one, even with the screen still in the stock unit. The test was done with the complete CAI installed.

The only trouble is (here we go again), I had to use the stock '99 Alero sensor element mounted in the LS1 outer pieces. So now, all I gotta do is design the ultimate tubing system, come up with a calibration, and call it a day.

[AaronGTR]

Mounting the stock LA1 center section inside the LS1 ends won't work very well. Heck, it shouldn't even be possible but I guess if the outside bolt holes have the same dimensions...

The inside diameter of the two are much different though and it would really screw up smooth airflow and a good reading. Why didn't you just use the complete LS1 maf? You have a tuner don't you? All you have to do is copy the LS1 maf table into your pcm. Very easy.

[Sprucegagt]

Well, so far it looks like you were right. I found a stock LS1-style MAF in a junkyard, and tested it on my car. I could measure no difference in airflow between it and the ported aftermarket one, even with the screen still in the stock unit. The test was done with the complete CAI installed.

The only trouble is (here we go again), I had to use the stock '99 Alero sensor element mounted in the LS1 outer pieces. So now, all I gotta do is design the ultimate tubing system, come up with a calibration, and call it a day.

Like AaronGTR asked, Why couldn't you use a complete LSI MAF. If it's the connector being different, then you could of got an adapter from ZZP that splits it into separate MAF and IAT connectors.

[AleroB888]

Like AaronGTR asked, Why couldn't you use a complete LSI MAF. If it's the connector being different, then you could of got an adapter from ZZP that splits it into separate MAF and IAT connectors.


The connector socket is broken on the junkyard one. The '99 center section's 2 locating tabs protrude into the outer rim of the assembly, each causing a 1/8" by 7/8" obstruction (restriction). Not too bad, really. I had to file off a ridge on the '99 center section to make it fit into the end piece on one side, and file a locator pin off one end piece.

I would be more concerned about them being electrically the same. I also don't know what car it was originally on.

[AaronGTR]

Most of the LS1 MAF's were the same and the connector is the same. No adapter needed, it's plug and play. Another question, why did you buy a maf from a junkyard that was broken? I got a brand new LS1 maf off ebay dirt cheap. And I'd call any kind of obstruction in the middle of a maf sensor "bad". Any kind of a lip sticking into the air stream is enough to cause turbulence.

[AleroB888]

Most of the LS1 MAF's were the same and the connector is the same. No adapter needed, it's plug and play. Another question, why did you buy a maf from a junkyard that was broken? I got a brand new LS1 maf off ebay dirt cheap. And I'd call any kind of obstruction in the middle of a maf sensor "bad". Any kind of a lip sticking into the air stream is enough to cause turbulence.

Well, this one was only $15.00, and at the time I was not sure how it would flow. I could file away most of the tab area, but I'll just wait till I find another unit. I believe I found a '97 LS1 calibration that you posted. I'll start with that.

[AleroB888]

Most of the LS1 MAF's were the same and the connector is the same. No adapter needed, it's plug and play.

All you have to do is copy the LS1 maf table into your pcm. Very easy.

OK, well I got a response on the HP tuners site and this is what they sent me:

http://www.grandamgt.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=24562&d=1173286343

Yeah, thanks for staying on my case about that. I pasted the '97 'vette calibration in, and it works fine "right out of the box." Drivability is excellent, throttle response in all ranges is better.

So even though I haven't redone the funky intake tubing, I just had to get it to the track. Traction became more of a problem than before, but that's the kind of problem I like. I had to keep the rpm's at about 1100-1200 off the line to get any traction at all (not an ideal launch).

Stock LS1 MAF, 2.0 in. pulley on S.C., reading 10 psi boost in IM., iced IC., D.R.'s

Test and Tune, Sept. 19, '07 (Bandimere Speedway) (Elev. 5860 ft., 75 deg. F.)

3) 14.115 @ 96.31, 2.076 60 ft.
This is good because I had the air filter, intake tubing, and muffler installed, and running about 75 lbs more weight in street trim.
4) 14.038 @ 97.05, 2.091 60 ft.
Without air filter and funky tubing, muffler still on.
5) 14.081 @ 97.69, 2.162 60 ft.
Lost traction

Thanks again to all, for the input.

[AaronGTR]

Nice. Almost in the 13's now. Pretty impressive for that elevation and I'm sure the setup would have more in it at a lower elevation. I was sure a proper calibration for that MAF would help too. Keep working on it man! 13's a hair away.

[TurboAlero]

Yeps, keep it up man.

[Sprucegagt]

Nice. Almost in the 13's now. Pretty impressive for that elevation and I'm sure the setup would have more in it at a lower elevation. I was sure a proper calibration for that MAF would help too. Keep working on it man! 13's a hair away.

I have to X2 this, a proper tune can make a big difference.

[SpyhunteR]

when you start making power you get to step up to big dog slicks. :)

[AleroB888]

....... 13's a hair away.

It took a cool night, but thanks to N2O-OLDS, aleroboy, and the GrandAmGt.com network, 13's are here...as far as I know, this is the first Alero / GrandAm to do it at this elevation.

Test and Tune, September 26, '07 (Bandimere Speedway) (Elev. 5860 ft, temp. 60-65 deg. F.)

Air filter bypassed, Malibu wheels (front and rear), D.R's, Stock LS1 MAF, muffler removed, spare tire and floor mats removed, iced IC.

1) 13.946 @ 97.96, 2.037 60 ft.
2) 14.263 @ 97.40, 2.231 60 ft.
3) 14.054 @ 98.25, 2.160 60 ft.
4) 13.892 @ 98.01, 2.083 60 ft.

Still got traction problems, and the scans were ugly, but I'll take it.

Answering the question -- how much can a stock engine, tranny, and a little M62 take? We'll find out.

221 timeslips in 4 years..... WOOOOHOOOOOO !!!

[AaronGTR]

Awesome man! Congratulations. :)

[aleroboy]

how much boost is it pushing now?

[GT_turbo]

took 4 years to reach 13's with a supercharger?? I've had a turbo for 1 month and I'm pretty certain I'm hitting 13's at 10 psi.

[Ajaxus]

took 4 years to reach 13's with a supercharger?? I've had a turbo for 1 month and I'm pretty certain I'm hitting 13's at 10 psi.

reading is a virtue.

he never said 4 years with the supercharger, just how many slips have been accumulated in 4 years.

also, check his elevation..he has had more hurdles to overcome.

[silvergtjrad]

took 4 years to reach 13's with a supercharger?? I've had a turbo for 1 month and I'm pretty certain I'm hitting 13's at 10 psi.

Its too bad your car runs like **** though ;)

[GT_turbo]

Its too bad your car runs like **** though ;)

Why cause I had a few electrical problems that I got worked out already??? Don't be jealous man. *banana*

[SpyhunteR]

took 4 years to reach 13's with a supercharger?? I've had a turbo for 1 month and I'm pretty certain I'm hitting 13's at 10 psi.

people have said it to me when I've been boasting about "potential" times, and I'll say it to you. Don't talk TOO much about it until you do it.

For the record I did 13's with less than 10psi.

[john_V63400]

Hey Alerob888..........
How did this kit personally work, Im going to do the same thing, just curious if it made a real difference?
Also, Even with the I/C you still have methanol injection? Does it help any?
Also if your using NOS do you need methanol injection? or could you benefit from both?

[AleroB888]

Hey Alerob888..........
How did this kit personally work, Im going to do the same thing, just curious if it made a real difference?
Also, Even with the I/C you still have methanol injection? Does it help any?
.................

This kit has been a real blast. So far I've always passed emissions tests, car has been a daily driver for the most part, too.

No, I have not had the methanol injection on for the last 2 sessions at the track. The one I had sprayed into the TB, upstream of the SC and IC. That particular system worked better with no intercooler in the setup.

The Alero ran between 17.05 and 17.4 stock at my home track, at 5,860 ft. elevation.
aleroboy did the original install of the complete Magnuson kit, with their air filter box, EGR setup, and a 2.5 in. pulley. I was getting around 5-6 lb. boost at that point, and I estimate it could have ran about a 15.7. E.T. up here.

I switched to a cold air intake and added the alcohol injection, then the Alero ran a best of 15.5 at 5860 ft. The rest of the car was still stock.

Next season aleroboy installed TOG headers and SLP / Magnaflow exhaust. Changed to a 2.2 in. pulley, Got about 7-8 lb. boost up here. The car went into the high 14's. A few other mods ( 2.5 in.TB, MSD box, MAF-translator), It went 14.5 at altitude, 14.0 at sea level on street tires and very poor traction.
That was before any real tuning capability was available to me. So, yeah it made a real difference.

[AleroB888]

Fall Racing Series, Oct.7, '07, (Bandimere Speedway, Elev. 5860 ft., 50-60 deg. F.)

Ran in "Pro-ET" and "Trophy" classes. Air filter bypassed, muffler removed, testing MAF inlet tube

1st trial (Pro-ET)...14.397 @ 98.08, 2.262 60 ft.
hit fuel cutoff / tire pressure too high

**1st trial (Trophy)....13.689 @ 99.39, 2.019 60 ft.**
new P.B.

2nd trial (Pro-ET).... 13.809 @ 98.63, 2.068 60 ft.
2nd trial (Trophy).... 13.761 @ 98.67, 2.028 60 ft.
1st Rd. (Pro-ET)..... 13.755 @ 98.85, 2.013 60 ft.
hit brakes to avoid breaking-out
1st Rd. (Trophy)......13.737 @ 99.32, 2.033 60 ft.
back-to-back run
2nd Rd. (Pro-ET)......13.794 @ 98.01, 2.057 60 ft.
running out of ice, track warming up
2nd Rd. (Trophy) ......13.802 @ 98.38, 2.068 60 ft.
back-to-back run

Prototype MAF inlet tube:

http://shutter13.pictures.aol.com/data/pictures/11/004/77/DA/3A/30/ihnSXgz8XOwflci+5vURRET4qB7RDEQv0300.jpg

[AaronGTR]

Wow. Solid in the 13.7's now, and a 13.6 too. Nice job man!

[TurboAlero]

That's on street tire's????

if that's on street tire damn it hooking up pretty nice

[SpyhunteR]

street tires 2.0 60fts... looks good.

[silvergtjrad]

It would be nice to see you bring that thing down to sea level and get some runs in.

[AleroB888]

street tires 2.0 60fts... looks good.

Actually, the tires are BFG D.R.'s -- P225 / 50 / 15. I don't know if that counts as a street tire. Stock tires are out of the question. Other data:
Malibu 9-spoke wheels (4), wheel + tire combo weighs 35 lb.
Weight of car at track w / driver 3230 lb.
Launch rpm 1200
Boost pressure 10-11.5 psi at SC outlet.
Air temp in IM 68 deg. at start of (13.689) run, 75 deg. maximum during run.