TOG Headers Installed (Plus dyno results!) [Archive] - GrandAmGT.com Forum

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jaketuff
08-26-2002, 06:17 AM
Welcome back to the mod section!!!

Wow there is a lot of discussion that we lost! Let's get the ball rolling. Aleroboy has been working closely with TOG and as on www.americanperformanceofcolorado.com he has announced that the headers are installed!!! Well John let's have the results!

JOUT

mfuller
08-26-2002, 06:33 AM
I talked to John at great length over the phone on Friday about these.
First, they are quite loud (I heard them over the phone; they sound a bit raspy)- John remarked that he's very glad he did not remove the resonator on his Borla cat-back (he had been thinking about this). Second, he said installation was a royal pain in the butt, so anyone who wants to save money by doing the installation themselves had best think it over again. The oil dipstick does need to be moved a bit, and the EGR tube must be re-positioned....but neither is a real big deal. Third, although the headers fit, the primary tubes have not been re-shaped to match the LA1's D-shaped exhaust ports (primaries are round). The primaries are large enough that they overlap the entire port, but still it's a small detail that annoys me.
John said that his car seems to have lost some low-end, but it pulls nicely up top. Dyno tests to come soon.....

bmarks
08-26-2002, 07:37 AM
I hope you guys like these headers. As could be expected, we'll have them in stock pretty soon. I think we ordered lots of sets. They'll be priced at $729 for regular, and $919 for titanium ceramic coated. Both sets will be in stock at our warehouse soon. TOG has supposedly been working on these forever now, and they are finally here.

Looking forward to hearing feedback.

bszopi
08-26-2002, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by mfuller
Third, although the headers fit, the primary tubes have not been re-shaped to match the LA1's D-shaped exhaust ports (primaries are round). The primaries are large enough that they overlap the entire port, but still it's a small detail that annoys me.


Hmm... just another reason not to spend $850 (or $775 from APOC) for these headers. I could have sworn when I got into a discussion (ok, so it was an arguement...) with a TOG rep and Duane Dodson in January about these, they said they were going to have d-shaped primaries at the flange. Oh well, we'll see what S&S comes out with, cause I'm pretty sure they will have the D-shape.

As far as fitment goes, there are always going to be some issues no matter what. The engine bays vary enough between the different body styles that you would have to make a specific header for each style, and possibly each year (or span of years) in order to get a great fit. And even then, I'm sure there will have to be some tweaking involved.

As far as installation goes, add another $500 probably to the price tag if you have a place install them. If its not something that is relatively simple for a guy who is mechanically inclined (I'm pretty sure John is), then you'll be looking at some heafty labor charges. So now the price is up to $1200+. Now how many people are willing to spend that kind of money? Once again, S&S is sounding better to me everyday.... of course, I plan on pulling the engine and hacking the bay to install a set in my car, but I'm a little different than most people. :boogie:

koolZ71
08-26-2002, 08:26 AM
to each there own i guess...i for one cant see spending almost 1k dollars on headers...but then again..the preformance gain may be well worth it:) but im gonna hold off for right now

black99gt
08-26-2002, 08:33 AM
ya near 1k is a pocket ouchy.

If the GA was a **** car.. 1k would get you headers and a full exhuast :(

aleroboy
08-26-2002, 09:05 AM
Man I wanted to be the first to post this! oh well. The headers work great and according to everyone of my friends they don't think I lost any bottom end. I didn't make it to the track yesterday due to brake bleeding problems. So looks like dyno will be first. Headers are on sale now for a month.
TOG currently has 19 sets available. (I got the first)
My friend took some in car pics friday that I'll get soon. The out of car pis I have to get developed.

As for TOG themselvs, they have been great to me these past few weeks. Major changes ahve been made in their customer service area. I had a few problems to work out but they were right on top of things and everything is fine now. Since I was the first and test mule I didn't expect everythign to go smoothly.
As far as install, I highly recomend haivng a pro do this.
if you live in colorado I'll install again. But count on any install costing about 250-300.

The headers are definately worth the cash.
jaketuff got to hear my car on the intersate. Too bad I can't record it.
The car sounds really evil now.

aleroboy
08-26-2002, 09:08 AM
Oh bszopi, I went and seen my friend arron. With his beretta's we did sight compairing. it looks like the headers would go in just fine. I'll find out soon my friend will want a set on his hybrid 2.8L

bszopi
08-26-2002, 09:44 AM
That's cool. I don't plan on getting the TOGs, but it'll still be nice to know if they will fit or not. As long as they are designed around a GA/Alero, I see no reason why they won't. Ok, well... 1 thing, and that is the cooling fan. But I can get a slimmer fan to solve that problem.

jaketuff
08-26-2002, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by aleroboy

The headers are definately worth the cash.
jaketuff got to hear my car on the intersate. Too bad I can't record it.
The car sounds really evil now.

Sorry John, I was so excited about them that I had to go and create this thread!

The car sounded AWESOME on the highway. John passed near a barrier and I could hear the car over the cell phone. It has a very loud growl now, I remember mine NA, it had a snarl to it, but the sound with the TOG is much more visceral and muscular. John, need to get those numbers! I remember that you had the brake problem, I guess all the time on the TOG's install left you with none for the brake job!:( Anyway, the car sounds...

BADA55. :thumbs:

Pat

aleroboy
08-26-2002, 12:13 PM
Yea still phuckin with the brakes. they still wont bleed right. So I'm seeing where I'm goign to take it.
I want my car back!:(

mfuller
08-26-2002, 01:06 PM
Well, I have absolutely no brand loyalty, so if John's results on TOG headers are favorable, I just might cancel my pre-order with S&S and get TOG's headers. Only thing is I'll probably pop for the titanium-ceramic coating....I figure the coating essentially insulates the tubes, right? Well, since heat=energy=velocity, it would be wise to keep EGT's as high as possible to speed up exhaust flow, thereby maximizing potential gains. Waiting for more info....

MetaGTP1
08-26-2002, 03:10 PM
No headers for me.

Vegeta
08-26-2002, 04:45 PM
So what is the length of the primaries and the diamter of the tube? Until I know I can't make any judgement on them, but the sound of a round pipe on a D shape sorta conflicts with what I know on design, as well as other companies making the D shape so it fits on the round port. My guess right now is no thanks for the 2.8/3.1 heads because the round pipe needed to fit over the D shape is a LOT bigger than the O shape the 2.8/3.1 will have.

aleroboy
08-26-2002, 05:20 PM
Haven't measured. but I was told each primary is a little different in size. also the tubes all vary in length.

aleroboy
08-26-2002, 05:54 PM
The nickel coats prety good.
But ceramic would be better.
Results to come soon. Trying to set up dyno day with other n-bodies.

Vegeta
08-26-2002, 05:57 PM
WTF! Thats not good to hear at all. Each tube is a different diameter! That is absurd. The length is so important as well that if they aren't equal length you have yourself glorified manifolds. How dissapointing after that long of a wait.

aleroboy
08-26-2002, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Vegeta
WTF! Thats not good to hear at all. Each tube is a different diameter! That is absurd. The length is so important as well that if they aren't equal length you have yourself glorified manifolds. How dissapointing after that long of a wait.

Actually if you think aobut it, it makes sence.
since there isn't room to do equal length they do different dia tubing.
each tube size will flow differently.
so they flow the tubes and match dia to length. so each tube regardless of length will flow at the same rate to the collector.
so it will take the same time for the gas to reach the collecter form each runner even though they ae different length. this takes quite bit of R&D, but they end up working just like equal length headers.The front and back merge right before the flex pipe instead of on feeding into the other like on stock.

Other companies do this to and it involves more technology than equal length. Plus you get less bends than equal length have so you get less restriction. please wait for results before you pass judgement on them.
The front and back merge right before the flex pipe instead of on feeding into the other like on stock.

The stock Grand Am GT that was tested by magnacharger before the SC install gained 18hp and 18 torque form tog headers with NO other mods.
I have no doubt that they are real close to those results just by what I've felt.
I'll be dynoing this week and track on sunday if it's open. first gotta fix brakes though. back to dealer tomorrow.:rolleyes:

Vegeta
08-26-2002, 06:55 PM
who explained that to you? Um, that isn't how it works at all. You have the gas velocity which changes based on the diameter of a tube, as well as the sound wave which goes by the length. You can't flowbench them and come up what would flow the same out of varying length and diameter to come up with what would be the same for equal length.

I dont know why you cant fit equal length, someone just made a set of equal length for a DOHC and you can't tell me you have less room. Oh well, I guess if your only goal is to sell a product, you can made it for what fits in everyones car instead of what works best. Im sure you will see gains, im just surprised by how they did it for taking so damn long to produce.

drburns
08-26-2002, 07:12 PM
I think the fact the headers are round port and the heads are D-port defeats the purpose or certainly limits the gains of the headers. If you want the optimal flow they need to be port matched to each other. The other problem is the price + install. You could get a set of Stage II heads for a bit more and probably see more modest gains.

aleroboy
08-26-2002, 07:30 PM
Actually TOG and a local performance shop.
we'll just see what happens.

Vegeta
08-26-2002, 07:31 PM
Well you are almost right on the shape. You dont want them matched, but rather the header port to be slightly larger. This will help keep the exhaust from flowing back into the head during overlap and the sound wave as well.

Those heads are expensive as hell. Has anyone noticed how unbelievably expensive all the parts are? Its insane becaues their are cheaper alternatives that are just as good or better. It blows me away.

drburns
08-26-2002, 07:36 PM
Exactly! For a car that is somewhat economical (a lot of bang for the buck), it's ridiculously expensive to modify it. It ranks up there with european car mods. :mad: Either way, I hope the headers put out some good numbers on the dyno.

aleroboy
08-26-2002, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Vegeta
who explained that to you? Um, that isn't how it works at all. You have the gas velocity which changes based on the diameter of a tube, as well as the sound wave which goes by the length. You can't flowbench them and come up what would flow the same out of varying length and diameter to come up with what would be the same for equal length.

I dont know why you cant fit equal length, someone just made a set of equal length for a DOHC and you can't tell me you have less room. Oh well, I guess if your only goal is to sell a product, you can made it for what fits in everyones car instead of what works best. Im sure you will see gains, im just surprised by how they did it for taking so damn long to produce.

Ok maybe you could fit equal length but it would make the install even worse and it's isn't exactly easy now. I don't know a buttload about headers and I don't pretend to.
But I know that dia and size effect velocity. Maybe flow bench was wrong terminology. They didn't say they flow benched them to get it worked out. I just assumed thats how you'd do it.
However if they weren't like equal length, how are they getting numbers that good?

jaketuff
08-26-2002, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by drburns
Exactly! For a car that is somewhat economical (a lot of bang for the buck), it's ridiculously expensive to modify it. It ranks up there with european car mods. :mad: Either way, I hope the headers put out some good numbers on the dyno.

Really, you can go the local Speed Shop route to prevent such expense. I have gotten quoted about a grand (US) for a full port and polish of the heads to I guess what is Stage III spec, mazimized flow thru for the SC. This includes the installation.

I would love to do it ASAP, but it will be a while b/c I have the headers on order from S&S and the guy I trust is really busy right now. Heads seem like the best bang for the buck on this motor, sure the SC is fun and kicks ass, but heads are as good if not better than just an SC, now a SC AND HEAD work.... hmmmm.:thumbs:

JOUT

AaronGTR
08-26-2002, 08:25 PM
You could fit equal length headers on a NA car no problem. Don't know about an SC'd car though. The problem there is that an NA car doesn't flow enough to need headers, while an SC car does. I really don't like that the ports don't match up either. That'll just create turbulence in the air flow. They may sound cool, but are they really going to make any power? I think the stock manifolds are underrated by most people. Think about it. 3 cylinders per side on a 4 stroke engine. Exhaust gas only gets pushed out on 1 out of every 4 strokes, and each cylinder fires at a different time. The exhaust pulses shouldn't even overlap until higher rpm's. I think people are going to spend a lot of money and not see a lot of gains from this.

Vegeta
08-26-2002, 08:27 PM
I just got a flowbench and will be selling head work later after I do my testing. 1000 for new springs, a valve job, bowl porting and port work as well as combustion chamber work, cleaned decked and assembled is still a LOT of money. Wow...but installed thats just about right for a shop:) Go for it.

aleroboy
08-26-2002, 08:28 PM
Have you seen our stock manifolds?
Anyway the dyno run to end all debate will be done this week if possible.

AaronGTR
08-26-2002, 08:41 PM
Did all that about exhaust pulses go over your head?:rolleyes:
Sorry, don't mean to flame, but I'm gonna have to see the dyno sheet for these things. I hope you prove me wrong, but if you get like 10hp for $750 I'm going to laugh.

BTW. Vegeta, I think $1000 for all that head work is great. Street Arsenal charges $1150 for that without the valve springs. Most of the old school V8 guys I've talked to said $1500 is cheap for quality head work.

aleroboy
08-26-2002, 08:47 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AaronGTR
[B]Did all that about exhaust pulses go over your head?:rolleyes:
Sorry, don't mean to flame, but I'm gonna have to see the dyno sheet for these things. I hope you prove me wrong, but if you get like 10hp for $750 I'm going to laugh.

Well I din't exactly get them for 750 since I'm a dealer.
I know they add more than borla exhaust as far as gains but trust me I'll be the first to say they're a wast if gains are not good.
I haven't had any real play time with them since they day after the header work we started on brakes, but wha ti've done highspeed passes and such the top end is insane now. 100mph comes up real quicly now.
The car starts to pull real hard arround 3k and doens't stop till the car shifts. when I do my run they will leave it in second so it will bounce off the rev limiter. that way I know exactly what it pulls to.

Vegeta
08-26-2002, 08:53 PM
The stock manifolds stuck too, but its the scavenging that makes headers kicks ass. You wont have that with the TOG headers, esepcially if the front head has longer primaries than the rear. That means one side of the motor will be more efficient than the other at all speeds.

I am sure they are better than the stock manifold but a far cry from what you can achieve on a perfect set. For all the talking their jackass representative did im dissapointed in their design. Especially for the price. If they were closer to 500 uncoated it would't be so bad but they are charging a premium for a non premium header design. 2 years in the making no less. Its all for the mass production I guess.

GTManiac
08-27-2002, 06:25 PM
OK OK OK.

Just got done reading this and I only have ONE thing to say:

Anyone notice how Alero isn't going on and on and on about the headers while everyone else is flaming/doubting/whatever? He says, "I'll wait for a dyno before arguing." and STILL you don't leave it alone. Let him dyno it and then go to it whatever it is you want to put in once RESULTS are proven. This hmmm-ing and haw-ing won't do shiz without proof. It's irritating and annoying to even mod our cars anymore because unless it is made by GM or it is a light/sound/ appearance mod everyone doubts and flames. SO WHAT they cost a couple week's checks to buy and have installed? Don't have the bones? Then buy something else. You want these headers, but don't have the bones still? Then work and get the bones for this. EITHER way quit sobbing about the price. Seriously, it's O-L-D.

jaketuff
08-27-2002, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Vegeta
I just got a flowbench and will be selling head work later after I do my testing. 1000 for new springs, a valve job, bowl porting and port work as well as combustion chamber work, cleaned decked and assembled is still a LOT of money. Wow...but installed thats just about right for a shop:) Go for it.

Yeah this guy is really cool. He gives me a special rate because we get into discussions about cars everytime I am on the phone or at his shop. He is an honest guy though and will not do any work unless he can get HP out of it. He is located in CT so if any other members are interested I'll see what he can do for us.

*Only thing is that he does the work all himself, so downtime is considerable.

JOUT

drburns
08-27-2002, 07:29 PM
I'm located in Westchester too (Elmsford). I was thinking of picking up some heads from a wrecked GA and having them worked to cut down on downtime. Where in Westchester are you located Jake, and where is this machine shop?

Vegeta
08-27-2002, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by GTManiac
OK OK OK.

Just got done reading this and I only have ONE thing to say:

Anyone notice how Alero isn't going on and on and on about the headers while everyone else is flaming/doubting/whatever? He says, "I'll wait for a dyno before arguing." and STILL you don't leave it alone. Let him dyno it and then go to it whatever it is you want to put in once RESULTS are proven. This hmmm-ing and haw-ing won't do shiz without proof. It's irritating and annoying to even mod our cars anymore because unless it is made by GM or it is a light/sound/ appearance mod everyone doubts and flames. SO WHAT they cost a couple week's checks to buy and have installed? Don't have the bones? Then buy something else. You want these headers, but don't have the bones still? Then work and get the bones for this. EITHER way quit sobbing about the price. Seriously, it's O-L-D.

Ever notice how we can't talk about theory and design without someone butting in saying they don't care to learn anything at all? Oh im sorry, ill just STFU and i hope everyone else who knows anything more than "it works" does too so you can remain clueless. There is more to the world than the final product, and I believe knowledge is power. I guess ill respect the ignorance is bliss motto as well.

GTManiac
08-27-2002, 08:21 PM
Hey I never said to not discuss the mechanics, I was just saying that someone going on about the price is POINTLESS. Sorry you feel the need to attack me, I never directed anything towards you, so now I guess you CAN STFU this time :tool: :cool:


*** edit ***

I figured this needed a few more cause you are such dumb ninny poo poo head

:tool: :tool:

You ALWAYS seem to think I am directing everything at you, when I'm saying it to everyone. I KNOW you know your shi t. I never said "hey who cares how it works or if it even works, let's just buy it cause they're selling it." BUT griping about something's price won't do anything for that product. Go on with your discussion of all of the dynamics and what not, but PLEASE read all posts carefully. If you look back at my original one you'll see the point I was making. I NEVER once mentioned YOU or anything being discussed about the mechanics.

Vegeta
08-27-2002, 08:38 PM
Yes, now look at what I see (my point of view). We have people complaining about the price, and now complaints about the people complaining about the price. This is why threads get locked. We didn't need to hear your complaint about the price because your post doesn't have ANYTHING to do with headers at all. At least people complaining about the price have a vaild comment to make.

I read way too many forums, I see this way to much in various forms of anaylsis of the thread itself instead of the topic at hand.

***edit- because I can**

"Anyone notice how Alero isn't going on and on and on about the headers while everyone else is flaming/doubting/whatever? He says, "I'll wait for a dyno before arguing." and STILL you don't leave it alone"

This is what I was talking about, the flaming/doubting/whatever fits with what I was discussing, not price. This is what I read and the reason for my post.

Irate
08-27-2002, 08:38 PM
What is this? Tuesday? And the GAGT soaps are heating up... John I look forward to hearing about your results and thanks for the info Vegeta, its always nice to learn something...

Vegeta
08-27-2002, 08:48 PM
Nah, no more soaps, i get enough on the 3.4 DOHC board:P

Ill try to relax and just ignore these things. Its gonna give me a heart attack (if I dont go postal first). Breath in, breath out...ah I feel better:)

I too want to know the results. im sure they are going to be nice, I just wish we had a set made perfect so we knew what we were still missing. Im a perfectionist, or really close:P

Gator
08-27-2002, 08:50 PM
What many of you are failng to realize is that there are some people who just want to argue, (noone particular intended with that comment) What I mean is, there will always be someone who says:

Guy1 "I got 20 hp out of this widget and now run the 1/4 in .00000025 seconds at a trillion mph"

Guy2 "BS I want to see dyno sheets & timeslips!"

Guy1 fails to provide proof OR shows slips & sheets

Guy2 "That is photochopped, I still call BS"

That is the problem with online interaction, a certain level of trust and patience is required, but some just want to cause trouble!

Now I know this REALLY doesn't apply to the original topic, but it is relavent to the discussion overall IMHO.

Richard
"Gator"

Brendon
08-27-2002, 09:14 PM
Anybody ever consider putting some exhaust manifolds from a Montana on? Supposedly that is how the engine is rated at more horsepower in those vans.... I drove one once and it sounded like a whole different engine. The tone was considerably deeper.... as a result of the pre-cat configuration I assume.

iceman
08-27-2002, 09:17 PM
spoon said at one point that the hp difference between our cars and the montana is due to instake + exhaust restrictions..

Vegeta
08-27-2002, 09:21 PM
It must be the intake after the TB cause they got the same manifolds as the 2000+ 3100s and all the 3400s. The exhaust manifolds...maybe, I have no idea what they look like.

Someone have any pics of the grand am exhaust manifolds sitting on a table or something. We should gather pics from different vehicles so we know EXACTLY what changed and what didn't. Id even host all the pics and do a short write up on it just so we have concrete evidence for the GM rating system and its variations between platforms.

Irate
08-27-2002, 09:21 PM
I think the difference is largely due to Brendon's avitar. That is the best one I've seen yet man! lol

Maybe Pontiac had a hard time selling a minivan (god I don't know how that's possible) and claimed it had 15 extra hp...

PontiacPower
08-27-2002, 09:34 PM
Edited....let's keep things clean here, guys. -Matt

My advice to the rest of you.....when in doubt, go directly to the source. Here's TOG's web site www.theotherguysproducts.com , then give them a call.

PS...Dyno's are nice, but track results prevail!

Vegeta
08-27-2002, 10:02 PM
yeah, you sure told me.

Irate
08-27-2002, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by PontiacPower
...and while your at it call TOG and get an education on headers.
Jesus, its a damn grand am board, chill, all this flaming is stupid. There is NOTHING MORE to be said after this point unless it is John letting us know how the tests went, or someone with a legitimate question.

Vegeta
08-27-2002, 10:08 PM
Well if anyone cares to get an education on headers, id suggest not going to their site. Go to www.headersbyed.com or pick up a book or 2 cause that is what I did as well. There is a lot to know about headers, and before anyone wants to try and put me down...you better back it up with something that proves me wrong. Im willing to learn, but not when you have nothing to teach me.

aleroboy
08-27-2002, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by GTManiac
OK OK OK.

Just got done reading this and I only have ONE thing to say:

Anyone notice how Alero isn't going on and on and on about the headers while everyone else is flaming/doubting/whatever? He says, "I'll wait for a dyno before arguing." and STILL you don't leave it alone. Let him dyno it and then go to it whatever it is you want to put in once RESULTS are proven. This hmmm-ing and haw-ing won't do shiz without proof. It's irritating and annoying to even mod our cars anymore because unless it is made by GM or it is a light/sound/ appearance mod everyone doubts and flames. SO WHAT they cost a couple week's checks to buy and have installed? Don't have the bones? Then buy something else. You want these headers, but don't have the bones still? Then work and get the bones for this. EITHER way quit sobbing about the price. Seriously, it's O-L-D.

Thanks that makes me feel better. I just wish all those who doubt the car could go for a ride.
I also wish I was at sea level so when I post my times they would be more impressive thant what I do at 4000+ ft above sea level.

Brendon
08-27-2002, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by IrateGT
I think the difference is largely due to Brendon's avitar. That is the best one I've seen yet man! lol

Rabbits with custom pancakes are good for 10 ponies at the wheels!

aleroboy
08-27-2002, 10:49 PM
Ok more into the subject. I talked to TOg and the front's are all really close to equal length. And the rears are really close to equal length. I'm nto sure size difference from front to back but I'll measure next time the car is cool and i'm thining about it.

Vegeta, your most likely correct that they could be better. But in mass production most things can be better. Everyone would do it a little different or what ever.

As far as TOG goes the headers are really nice and the car does perform. My butt dyno isn't that good so thats why they will be dynoed. I will post my dyno runs as soon as I get them. Right now I have itnakes to get out and money to save.

For anyone with a GAGT or Alero in colorado or colorado springs that would like to see them or do a compairison car to car we can.
Today I took it to the dealer and took my original salesman for a spin. He could feel a larger difference over a stock alero.
also the service maniger drove my car after doing the brake bleed and gave me a complement on the throttle response. I know none of this is hard core proof, but it's all I really have right now.
You guys know I will dyno and I will post the run. Good or bad it will be posted.
I really wish my car's brakes were ok sunday. I would of tracked and posted best slip from before and best slip after.

I know most people have to belive it to see it, but trust em the headers are worht every penny. people will spend close to 600 on borla and it can't be felt near as much as the headers. but people still buy borla and no one attacks them.
everyone doubts a new product till it is provin. I will bring the proof.

PontiacPower
08-27-2002, 11:10 PM
Lets remember something Vegi...(no flame intended), but TOGs headers produce very well respected HP/TQ increases while remaining in complience with strict ARB standards, pre-cats, cats, tight engine compartments, EGR fittings etc. while producing a 50 state legal, CARB issed, No fault lifetime warranty header.

TOG has an outstanding reputation in the aftermarket performance industry. Just ask Magnuson, (who in conjunction with TOG, brought you headers) Whipplecharger, TByrne Motorsports, Verdone Motorsports etc. These guys are some big players. Looks like TOG is doing something right.

I'm extremely pleased with the performance gains I've acheived while using TOG headers. Customer service is second to none!

Lets get back on the topic........

Vegeta
08-27-2002, 11:15 PM
I knew you were a TOG representative! No one else would bring up the carb approval cause no one cares at the user level. Heh, ive heard enough. Your reasoning for why TOG is so great is poor at best. McDonalds is a big player in the fast food industry with disney advertising with them. Does that mean their burgers are better?

You can get back to the topic, im going to go back to what I do best. See you all around, this is enough BS and drama for me.

SpyhunteR
08-28-2002, 02:34 AM
track results can be influenced by human error...

I like the idea of the dyno showing the difference of before and after... especially when it is done by an unbiased enthusiast instead of the company that made the product and spits out numbers... *shrugs*

don't matter I'm not in any need of a header *singular* LOL

GrandAmGT99
08-28-2002, 04:04 AM
I'm with spy...results before, results after. That's the only true way to measure the difference.

jaketuff
08-28-2002, 06:27 AM
Originally posted by drburns
I'm located in Westchester too (Elmsford). I was thinking of picking up some heads from a wrecked GA and having them worked to cut down on downtime. Where in Westchester are you located Jake, and where is this machine shop?

He is located in the hinterland of CT. To be specific in Naugatuck.
Let me know if you want his number. I will PM it to you.

Pat

aleroboy
08-28-2002, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Vegeta
I knew you were a TOG representative! No one else would bring up the carb approval cause no one cares at the user level.

Uh everyone who lives in Cali or now NewYork would care.

PontiacPower
08-28-2002, 09:48 AM
I wish I was a TOG rep! I just know a good product when I see one. How can you be so ignorant to say no one cares about CARB. Try passing a smog inspection without a CARB #. You must be another ignorant punk that has total disregard for laws and imposed regulations. CARB is very important, but I guess your'e to stupid to understand. Go troll elsewhere!

nfsga
08-28-2002, 10:10 AM
I don't care about CARB.

aleroboy
08-28-2002, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by nfsga
I don't care about CARB.

You live in GA, thats why you don't care.

jaketuff
08-28-2002, 10:23 AM
I don't care about CARB either.* PontiacPower, you're not an Eco-Narc are you, you won't rat me out if I get the S&S Headers will ya???:eek:;):D

(*But I suppose NYS does...:( )

aleroboy
08-28-2002, 10:36 AM
Everyone please just stop. there is no reason to fight or call names over somthing like this. Lots of you guys are acting like 5 year olds. I move to lock this thread till I get the results, since no one can't talk about headers in a civil matter.

AaronGTR
08-28-2002, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by PontiacPower
TOGs headers produce very well respected HP/TQ increases... Not proven on our cars yet.

while remaining in complience with strict CARB standards, pre-cats, cats, tight engine compartments, EGR fittings etc. while producing a 50 state legal, CARB issed, No fault lifetime warranty header.
It probably won't fit on my car. Oh yea, I don't care about CARB standards either, and neither do the people on this board from the other 48 states that don't use CARB standards. All I hear from car enthusiasts in CA is how much CARB sucks and it raises the cost of parts because of the required certification. Probably why these headers are $750! BTW, I know someone with TOG headers on their GP and the coating is flaking off already.

I'm extremely pleased with the performance gains I've acheived while using TOG headers. Customer service is second to none Service is so good, it's taken 2 years to get them made.:tool:

I'll wait for dyno results. Then I'll wait for SS headers to get done and tested so I can compare them. Then we'll know for sure which is the better investment. 'Nuff said.

inkwell101
08-28-2002, 05:12 PM
damn f*cking straight, Aaron!!

Vegeta
08-28-2002, 05:19 PM
I have a question for John though. Do you have the dyno results with all your other mods first? Its going to change a bit for whoever does the testing for S&S because they may not have every mod that John has. Will be interesting but to get a 100% fair comparison he would need to install the S&S headers on his car as well. Its also not going to be the same for a completely stock motor. I dunno who will buy headers for a stock motor (as their first mod).

AaronGTR
08-28-2002, 05:26 PM
Thats true. They may get different total numbers, but I'm just looking for overall amount of imrovement. ie. one gained 5hp at wheels while one gained 20hp.

aleroboy
08-28-2002, 07:20 PM
Everything has been dynoed before except the highflof cat.
with just the cat though I have quarter mile times.
so my next time slips will only be with headers added.

TOG expects me to gian more because of my other mods.

AaronGTR, they have been provin on our car just not to everyone.
magnacharger dynoed a stock GAGT with headers only and gained 18hp and 18Tq. But they won't release the run.

aleroboy
08-28-2002, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by AaronGTR

I know someone with TOG headers on their GP and the coating is flaking off already.


Uh then why doens't he send them back?
they have an unconditional lifetime warranty against that type of stuff. http://www.theotherguysproducts.com/warranty.html

aleroboy
08-28-2002, 07:36 PM
Got a pic of them installed.

aleroboy
08-28-2002, 07:38 PM
Got a shot of the crossover but can't see much

aleroboy
08-28-2002, 07:43 PM
last one

mfuller
08-28-2002, 07:47 PM
Damn. They're blockhuggers!wtf

jaketuff
08-28-2002, 07:53 PM
John pics look good. That crossover section looks like a real bee-i-itch to get installed!!! Got to give you props on the install, it looks very clean in there... Of course the MSD, your intake, and TB look cool too!!!

Have you managed to schedule the dyno yet? Or are you going to hit the track this weekend?

Pat

aleroboy
08-28-2002, 08:01 PM
Thanks for the complements.
Yea I'm surprised how little room you have to work with and how they turned out.
actually feels like more room with them in.

The crossover wasn't that bad. (intake out of the way)
however you need three hands to do it just because of having to hold things and start the bolts. So my girlfriend helped me with that. now I'm talking her into modeling the car.;)
She will be the offical APOC model. :D

Oh I'll be at the track if it's open and at the dyno on friday if I can get fit in. I'll know tomorrow about the dyno.

jaketuff
08-28-2002, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by aleroboy
Thanks for the complements.
The crossover wasn't that bad. (intake out of the way)
however you need three hands to do it just because of having to hold things and start the bolts. So my girlfriend helped me with that. now I'm talking her into modeling the car.;)
She will be the offical APOC model. :D

Oh I'll be at the track if it's open and at the dyno on friday if I can get fit in. I'll know tomorrow about the dyno.

WOOHOO! Models, the car, the dyno, the track - someone is going to have a really good weekend!:D Can't wait for your track and the dyno results!!!

*MILE HIGH IN COLORADO - Could you include the altitude adjustments to your best E/T so us East Coasters can compare? ;)

Pat

aleroboy
08-28-2002, 08:41 PM
Yea just wish they adjusted it on the slips.
But I'll post times at this altitude. and what they would be at sea level.

drburns
08-28-2002, 08:45 PM
I thought my engine was clean? Looks pretty sick! I hope my intake I ordered from you (John) looks that clean. The headers are looking good.

homegrown
08-28-2002, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by Vegeta
who explained that to you? Um, that isn't how it works at all. You have the gas velocity which changes based on the diameter of a tube, as well as the sound wave which goes by the length. You can't flowbench them and come up what would flow the same out of varying length and diameter to come up with what would be the same for equal length.

Volumetric flow rate = Velocity x Cross sectional area. The reason for equal length tube headers is to have the gas pulses timed at equal times to help pull the exhaust out of the other cylinders.

That said, looking at the formula above, the cylinder will pump out the same volume, so a large diameter tube will have a slower velocity, where as a smaller diameter tube will have a higher velocity. A flow bench can only test at steady state, so using a flow bench to try and quantify this will not work. You have to remember that it is gas waves or pulses which you are trying to tune, these are time based. So, if you have unequal length tubes but you want to make them act like equal length tubes you use a larger diameter tube on the shorter tubes which will slow the pulse velocity down and make it seem like a longer, smaller diameter tube.

This idea has been around for a long time. Its been used in motorcycle racing for years. In fact, the new Ducati 999 uses this very technique.

if you have any questions let me know...

Homegrown

aleroboy
08-28-2002, 10:25 PM
Homegrown, Thanks, Thats pretty much how it was explained to me. But I'm just not very good at explaining things back. I'm a very visual person so verbal just doesn't seem to work that well with me.;)

My intake is painted. (Just engine paint)
I'd like to offer powder coating in the future, but I've yet to find a resonable price place to do it for me. Powder coating offers more than looks though.
The aluminum tubing used will scratch VERY easily. Also powder coating would cut intkae temps way down. Just normal paint cut my tmep in half!

Also my engine sees the carwash about twice a month.
it's actually dirty in the pics, but the spots didn't seem to show up in the pic. :D

Vegeta
08-28-2002, 11:25 PM
Id like to know the sources for this info so I can read more about it. It goes against what I have read, and motorcycles aren't the same as car engines (have you revved to 10000 RPM lately?). It also doesn't explain the sound wave pulse that goes backwards, and the low pressure area you want created at the valve when it opens. This is why I need a LOT more information. If its true, ill understand TOGs design better, but right now their lengths look too short and from what I know already diameter plays a huge role alone. Im also worried about the 90 degree angle right out of the port.

mfuller
08-29-2002, 08:40 AM
John:
Any pictures of the rear header?

aleroboy
08-29-2002, 09:03 AM
Yea but I got to get it developed.
As far as the 90 deg bend right nout of the header. it's still a smoother transition than stock.

Also the tubes are soo close in size you can't visually see a difference.

bszopi
08-29-2002, 09:32 AM
A note on tuning of headers (sorry, just thought of this the other night...):

If you can't picture how a change in diameter and length will affect a header, look into the audio realm of it. Let's say you have a ported speaker cabinet. You can "tune" the port to a desired frequency, lets say 35Hz. Now, if you are using a 3" diameter port, the length of the port will be XX" long for the desired 35Hz. But if you stepped up to a 4" diameter port, the length of the port will change to still get the desired 35Hz frequency.

So in effect, tuning headers this way is feasible. The headers are tuned for a desired frequency. So if equal length cannot be met, then changing the diameter of the tubing can achieve an equal frequency. The only problem with this is how it will affect at different frequencies. From what I remember of port design graphs, as the frequencies varied, the length vs diameter of the tubes didn't change equally. So as far as the headers go, they may be tuned for a certain RPM (therefore frequency) and achieve very good gains, but at other RPMs, they might actually hinder the effect of the headers. Now, this will happen with all header designs, but I think equal length/equal diameter tubing will not be affected in the same way.

Just a couple other notes on the TOG headers. I know for a fact (due to previous conversations) that one reason for the price and the delay in production was because of the CARB certification. I for one don't really care about this because I live in a state with no emmission laws. But they will probably get ALOT of business in California and New York where this is an issue. From a business standpoint, I see where they are coming from. I still don't agree with it though.

Oh, and does anyone know if they will be available un-coated?? No to bust on their coating process or anything, but I'd rather have them coated by either Jet-Hot or Airborn, especially if it'll make them cheaper. I know S&S is planning on using HPC, and it only increased the price by like $150. In order to sell more, make the product available for anyone. Some people may not care to have the headers coated, or would rather use a company they have used and trust. But this would affect TOGs unlimited lifetime warranty, hence the reason they probably don't due it.

And just one more thing... I know it'll be hard for you to do this John, but I remember a TOG rep saying that you can run the headers over with a truck and they will replace them. Can you please verify this for me??? :thumbs:

aleroboy
08-29-2002, 09:56 AM
lol I would but they were a pian to install!
also aobut coatings.
I talked to jon the TOg rep yesterday. and they were snedign them to jet hot for coating for customers who wanted it. but jet hot kept loosing parts. This is why they now offer the titanium ceramic themselves. Minimal down time, same type of coating jet hot uses, and parts won't get lost.

You know I never even thought aobut it on the sterio side of things. I've delt with car audio for years and knew that but never really played with ported boxes. Very good compairison though.
also I know that TOG got them as close to equal length as possible for that design.

also dyno appointment is set for 1Pm tomorrow.

Sorry_Officer
08-29-2002, 10:50 AM
No pics of them installed yet......WTF?? I would like to see these bad boys.:D

aleroboy
08-29-2002, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Sorry_Officer
No pics of them installed yet......WTF?? I would like to see these bad boys.:D

Go back to page 5;)

Sorry_Officer
08-29-2002, 10:54 AM
I see that now.....:confused:

My bad.:D

Sorry_Officer
08-29-2002, 10:56 AM
Hey alero where do these headers hook-up?? Do they include a high flow cat?? I am trying to gauge what to expect if I order these......like today.:D

aleroboy
08-29-2002, 11:03 AM
headers include: bolts, nuts and crossover gaskets.
they but up right in front of the original cat. or I can sell you a carsound like I did on my car. they require a pretty heafty knowelge of your car to install so I recomend pro install.
If you want to tackle it though I've done an install and can walk you thru it. but the install does require welding.

I'm planning on ordering in 5 sets tomorrow so ordering now would help me out a lot. Also they are on sale for this month. total cost with shipping is $725.

if you have more questions you can drop me an email at johnbelveal@hotmail.com or give me a call on my cell 719-271-4810 this goes for anyone who would like to hear the car or anything. like I siad earlier it will be on the dyno tomorrow. I'm trying to get a cam to record the run. My car sounds really sick on the dyno. :thumbs:

MetaGTP1
08-29-2002, 01:45 PM
Here is some news for all. I ordered the TOG headers exactly 13 months ago and now they are finally being shipped. I went through alot with TOG over this purchase, but Duane did the right thing. I won't go into the mess that took place, but Duane Dodson is a righteous guy and wants to make good on this bad deal. They are due to arrive next week. I don't know if I will keep them. If decide not to keep the headers, I will sell them at a deep discount. I will keep all of you informed, as to my decision. ;)

mfuller
08-29-2002, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by KmanGT1
Here is some news for all. I ordered the TOG headers exactly 13 months ago and now they are finally being shipped. I went through alot with TOG over this purchase, but Duane did the right thing. I won't go into the mess that took place, but Duane Dodson is a righteous guy and wants to make good on this bad deal. They are due to arrive next week. I don't know if I will keep them. If decide not to keep the headers, I will sell them at a deep discount. I will keep all of you informed, as to my decision. ;)
I'm glad that Duane is reputable, even if development at production did take longer than we all expected.
Why would you not keep them, seeing as how you've waited this long? wtf They should play well with that new SC pulley you have (when you get the nose drive rebuilt, that is.....).

MetaGTP1
08-29-2002, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by mfuller

I'm glad that Duane is reputable, even if development at production did take longer than we all expected.
Why would you not keep them, seeing as how you've waited this long? wtf They should play well with that new SC pulley you have (when you get the nose drive rebuilt, that is.....). I'll see when arrive.;)

Sorry_Officer
08-29-2002, 04:17 PM
Hey Alero, what had to be welded??

aleroboy
08-29-2002, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Sorry_Officer
Hey Alero, what had to be welded??

You cut the stock down pipe out right in front of the cat.
then you have to weld the flex pipe to the stock cat.

Watch4MyBu
08-29-2002, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by jaketuff


Yeah this guy is really cool. He gives me a special rate because we get into discussions about cars everytime I am on the phone or at his shop. He is an honest guy though and will not do any work unless he can get HP out of it. He is located in CT so if any other members are interested I'll see what he can do for us.

*Only thing is that he does the work all himself, so downtime is considerable.

JOUT

I am in Jersey and would consider going to Ct for this work as long as it is good. I would like stage 3 work with a 5 angle valve job

Vegeta
08-29-2002, 04:39 PM
What is stage 3? Ill sell you a set of stage 14 heads if you want...

Watch4MyBu
08-29-2002, 04:42 PM
Stage 3 is probably a bad term...I keep thinking about street arsenal heads. I want as much work done to the heads as possible

iceman
08-29-2002, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Vegeta
What is stage 3? Ill sell you a set of stage 14 heads if you want...

I'll take a set of stage 69, please.

mfuller
08-29-2002, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Vegeta
What is stage 3? Ill sell you a set of stage 14 heads if you want...
Cool! Full bowl polishing, oversize SS valves with radiused stems and a 3 angle valve job, higher rate valve springs (blueprinted installed height, of course), titanuim retainers, teflon valve seals and bronze valve guides, and polished exhaust ports. Oh, yes, and the flow sheets to match - intake to exhaust flow ratio of around 70-75%. Deck the heads .001", and make me a thinner (copper might be good) head gasket that will bump my static compression up to about 10:1.


BTW, I'm just dreaming here; please don't take it seriously. :boogie:

Sorry_Officer
08-29-2002, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by mfuller

Cool! Full bowl polishing, oversize SS valves with radiused stems and a 3 angle valve job, higher rate valve springs (blueprinted installed height, of course), titanuim retainers, teflon valve seals and bronze valve guides, and polished exhaust ports. Oh, yes, and the flow sheets to match - intake to exhaust flow ratio of around 70-75%. Deck the heads .001", and make me a thinner (copper might be good) head gasket that will bump my static compression up to about 10:1.


BTW, I'm just dreaming here; please don't take it seriously. :boogie:

I'll have some of what you are having..........:D

GTManiac
08-29-2002, 05:10 PM
I'll have some of your avatar.

:D :thumbs: :wave:

Vegeta
08-29-2002, 05:14 PM
Glad I got that flowbench:) Oversize valves might actually be a problem with the head design. How about we just remove the valve seats and use larger valve seats and seat the valve closer to the edge and radius port from there.

GTManiac
08-29-2002, 05:31 PM
you guys absolutely amaze me with this wealth of knowledge you spout everyday. (SERIOUSLY) I mean I can get the general idea and understand the point you're making, but the way you guys get so technical with all of this stuff is outstanding and makes it interesting to hear about modding an engine. I stand in awe.

(This is NOT a mock, I'm serious. There's some of us who just don't get that involved and some of you who just dive right in. Props to you people.):)

mfuller
08-29-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Vegeta
Glad I got that flowbench:) Oversize valves might actually be a problem with the head design. How about we just remove the valve seats and use larger valve seats and seat the valve closer to the edge and radius port from there.
I suppose that's a possibility. In lieu of that, John is looking at modifying LS1 rocker arms to gain a bit more valve lift....regardless, I may have to hunt down a set of LA1 heads for you to play with.

Vegeta
08-29-2002, 05:51 PM
I have a set of 94 3100 heads at the machine chop getting cleaned right now. They have a 3 angle valve job done already though so if you can find me a set of 3400 heads I can do a comparison of stock vs valve job. All stock heads are different though from the castings. From looking at the 3100 heads, the one exhaust bowl has a ridge in it the rest do not. Not good at all.

It will be a few weeks before i have everything for my flowbench. I have decided to use my spare 3.4 DOHC block for a valve shroud since other fixtures are used to emulate the cylinder wall anyway:) Can't beat the real thing.

aleroboy
08-29-2002, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Vegeta
I have a set of 94 3100 heads at the machine chop getting cleaned right now. They have a 3 angle valve job done already though so if you can find me a set of 3400 heads I can do a comparison of stock vs valve job. All stock heads are different though from the castings. From looking at the 3100 heads, the one exhaust bowl has a ridge in it the rest do not. Not good at all.

It will be a few weeks before i have everything for my flowbench. I have decided to use my spare 3.4 DOHC block for a valve shroud since other fixtures are used to emulate the cylinder wall anyway:) Can't beat the real thing.

I'll have a set of 3400 heads soon from a minivan. actually I'll have the whole motor

Vegeta
08-29-2002, 07:44 PM
If you want to send me the top half, or even sell it let me know. I want to get some flow numbers from a 3100 setup and a 3400 setup just for curiosity sake. We could possibly equate the flow difference to the stock power ratings. Then if someone has their manifolds extrude honed I would like to compare those as well.

Some people call me ignorant, but im one researching mofo!

aleroboy
08-29-2002, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Vegeta
If you want to send me the top half, or even sell it let me know. I want to get some flow numbers from a 3100 setup and a 3400 setup just for curiosity sake. We could possibly equate the flow difference to the stock power ratings. Then if someone has their manifolds extrude honed I would like to compare those as well.

Some people call me ignorant, but im one researching mofo!

You can borrow it but I'm not sellin. :D
I'm going to get the heads ported locally so I'd like to see before and after.
Also would you mind flow benching the TB's?
I'd like to see how much more the 62mm Tb flows.

Vegeta
08-29-2002, 07:57 PM
That was another plan of mine with the TBs. Yeah, I can flowbench but i have no idea what I would charge cause I dont know how involved it will be. I know its not a fast process. I can also to flow matching since I have everything needed to port,just no valve jobs from me.

aleroboy
08-29-2002, 08:08 PM
I just wnat to know stock numbers.
The guy doing the heads has a bench and has been porting for over 20 years. but I'll sned you the heads when I get them for your personal resurch.

jaketuff
08-29-2002, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by aleroboy
...20 years. but I'll sne doyu the heads when I get them for your personal resurch.

Someone's tired!!!:p

JOUT

aleroboy
08-29-2002, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by jaketuff


Someone's tired!!!:p

JOUT

No dislexic :(

Vegeta
08-29-2002, 08:44 PM
I still want the sources for the variable length and diameter of the pipe. From what I have heard (listened to the headersbyed tape today), length and diameter serve different functions and you cannot substitute in one area for the other. Im going to ask ed himself about it as well, but i want to know more from this theory.

aleroboy
08-29-2002, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by Vegeta
I still want the sources for the variable length and diameter of the pipe. From what I have heard (listened to the headersbyed tape today), length and diameter serve different functions and you cannot substitute in one area for the other. Im going to ask ed himself about it as well, but i want to know more from this theory.

You could always call Duane. :D ;)
I'm sure he could explain the theory.

Vegeta
08-30-2002, 12:38 AM
im not talking to a company, i dont trust companies whose motivations are to sell their product instead of selling quality info (rare but they do exist). If its true ill find out from a reliable source.

bszopi
08-30-2002, 08:51 AM
To the guy that is amazed how some of us can spout out technical info all day long... that's what happens when you get older. ;) I've been working on cars for 18 years now (helped tear apart and rebuild a VW Bug when I was 9), and I've been involved in car audio for 13 years. I also rebuilt my first engine when I was 17. But anyways....

To get back on topic some, if anyone wants some good header readings, check out Burns Stainless (http://www.burnsstainless.com/TechArticles/techarticles.html) . Most of it deals with race car header design, but there is still some good theory behind it all.

aleroboy
08-30-2002, 03:07 PM
well the numbers speak for themselvs but just incase it's hard to see.
I got 174.1hp and 184.5 torque.

Before headers I dynoed at 156.5hp and 175.9 tq.
also they last time I dynoed it was 40 degrees cooler.
there is no formula tha tthey dyno guy kenw of that would say how many hp the Temp difference cost me. but his guess was 5 to 10.

I'm now at 217.7hp and 230.7 torque at the crank.

the really cool thing is how the torque doens't drop as fast now.
well enough tlk here is the sheet

Rba007
08-30-2002, 03:39 PM
Very Nice!

mfuller
08-30-2002, 04:01 PM
Okay, I'm sold. :eek: :wow: 18HP at the wheels is always a good thing. :thumbs: You'll have my order soon.:boogie:

Sternie
08-30-2002, 04:13 PM
Awesome! I"m glad to see you proved your point over the whole header argument. I just decided to keep my mouth shut on the whole thread and wait for these results. I'm very impressed. Maybe I'll have to order these this spring.

Tony

GTManiac
08-30-2002, 05:01 PM
I had a SNEAKY suspicion. WTG John. You'll be seeing a check from me in a week or so.

PontiacPower
08-30-2002, 05:08 PM
:cheers: Enough said. :D

Watch4MyBu
08-30-2002, 05:10 PM
Those are some sweet results. I am still going to wait for S and S headers to see what the deal is with them and the make an educated decision

homegrown
08-30-2002, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Vegeta
I still want the sources for the variable length and diameter of the pipe. From what I have heard (listened to the headersbyed tape today), length and diameter serve different functions and you cannot substitute in one area for the other. Im going to ask ed himself about it as well, but i want to know more from this theory.

If you want to know the theory behind how the velocity of the gas changes with diameter and length. A fluid dynamics book would be a place to start, something college level. I have a few on my shelf and refer to them all the time.

For Theory on how to design exhaust stuff, I have a few books that I use: Design and Simulation of 4 Stroke Engines and Scientific Design of Exhaust and Intake systems. The first is pretty heavy reading, Differential Equations and such, probably Graduate to PHD level. The other is based more on a Physics/Wave theory, its a little easier to understand. There are also some good engine design books out there, John Heywood from MIT wrote a great book, I use it all the time.

As far as what works and what doesn't...every engine is different, most header companies have guidelines they work with because they have done testing and development on many engines. the only way to maximize an engines is to test, test, test. There is some software that will get pretty damn close, I will be playing with some new software next week that does a complete engine simulation and can optimize intake, exhaust and camshaft profiles among other things, but it is very expensive, more than your car is worth (yes...a one year license is $30,000). So i guess if you are willing to build, test, and rebuild and test...and repeat until you have maximized your engine, go for it.

As for motorcycle engines being different from car engines, thats a misunderstanding, the same theory used in F1 racing (18,000 RPM engines) is used in motorcycles (12,000-15,000 RPM) is used in production cars (6,000 RPM) and can be used on your lawn mower (3500 RPM)

Later

Homegrown

Sorry_Officer
08-30-2002, 06:04 PM
Already ordered........hopefully I am one of the first so I do not have to wait. My girlfriend charged them for me, talk about a aniversary present...........:D

aleroboy
08-30-2002, 11:29 PM
Thanks for all the complements.
I should be back at the dyno saturday since their O2 sensor wasn't working right.

I'm trying do drag a friend with digital video cam. so hopfully I can make you guys really drool!

aleroboy
08-31-2002, 01:54 PM
Ok my friend didn;t show up intime today to do the runs but I gained a little more hp and a little more torque!

My new best numbers are 175.4hp and 185.7 torque.
up from 174.1hp and 184.5 torque yesterday.
no changes. my car shows to be running lean after the cat.
So I'm installing a rign for them to mount the wide band O2 before the cat and I'll be back at the dyno soon. I'm hoping my car isn't running that lean. I was told at the dyno this might be because I have no MAF screen. we'll see.

So my new crank numbers are
219.2HP and 232TQ.

Sternie
08-31-2002, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by aleroboy
So my new at the wheels numbers are
219.2HP and 232TQ.

You mean at the crank?

aleroboy
08-31-2002, 02:21 PM
Uh yea sorry
long day :wave:

homegrown
08-31-2002, 02:35 PM
Typically, when the O2 is used after the cat, the numbers will come out to be a little lean because of the reactions going on in the cat. there is not real 'fudge factor' to know exactly what your A/F ratio is before the cat. Thats why its best before the cat.

Nice HP numbers man...


Homegrown

aleroboy
08-31-2002, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by homegrown
Typically, when the O2 is used after the cat, the numbers will come out to be a little lean because of the reactions going on in the cat. there is not real 'fudge factor' to know exactly what your A/F ratio is before the cat. Thats why its best before the cat.

Nice HP numbers man...


Homegrown

Yea this is why defore I get scared I decided to set it up where they can plug in before the cat.

jaketuff
08-31-2002, 06:37 PM
YES! Great job there John, even though they may not be optimal in performance they give a good solid gain - 18HP and torque! Good stuff, plus the car probably will take a while to adjust and relinquish some more HP!;)


Pat

aleroboy
08-31-2002, 07:03 PM
I put on about 500 miles before dynoing. this i'm told is enough time for the car to adjust.
But went back a day later and had one more hp.
I wish my car gained a hp everyday.:D

GTManiac
08-31-2002, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by aleroboy
I wish my car gained a hp everyday.:D

don't we all...:cool:

Doug
09-01-2002, 03:02 PM
Nice numbers... btw you won't get any more hp when its cooler. The numbers are SAE corrected. But impressive none the less

aleroboy
09-01-2002, 03:22 PM
Temp doesn't play a factor in their correction just barometric pressure. So I guess that would account for most.

Doug
09-01-2002, 03:36 PM
well it should. You can find the SAE correction equation here

http://rshelq.home.sprynet.com/cf.htm

homegrown
09-01-2002, 08:09 PM
Basically you are correcting for the density of air. Density = Pressure / R * Temp. So temp and pressure both play a role in the horsepower correction. the SAE correction formula corrects the horsepower back to STP, or standard pressure and temperature. If you wanted to compair horsepower numbers from two different runs, you would have to know the baro pressure and temp for both runs, then do a ratio of the density of air to figure out a correction factor. This will also work for altitude changes.

later

Homegrown

Schweppe23
09-11-2002, 08:30 AM
Nice numbers, can't wait to see the 1/4 mile times

Pat Lavanty

black99gt
09-11-2002, 08:39 AM
Awsome.

A REAL Power Mod to the GA :eek: Wow... Nice.

I like'm 18whp :thumbs:

How much again?


Edit: Dyno and Times are a different story tho. Although this MAY provide 18whp, this might only make .1-.3tenths off at the track.

Cant wait to see the track results.

Schweppe23
09-11-2002, 08:54 AM
Can these headers be used with my Randomtech hi-flow cat/downpipe. :rolleyes:

Pat Lavanty

mfuller
09-11-2002, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by Schweppe23
Can these headers be used with my Randomtech hi-flow cat/downpipe. :rolleyes:

Pat Lavanty
Nope. I will probably cut mine and weld up the RT cat to TOG's downpipe (it actually terminates in a flexpipe); I want to keep the RT cat since it comes with the secondary O2 bung, and the flange bolted right up to my Borla....if I bought a new cat, I'd need to source a new flange to bolt up to the cat-back as well as getting a rear )2 sensor fitting....too much of a headache.

aleroboy
09-11-2002, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by black99gt

Edit: Dyno and Times are a different story tho. Although this MAY provide 18whp, this might only make .1-.3tenths off at the track.

Cant wait to see the track results.

Well the Tb and CAI added 6hp and 8 ft lbs and gained 4 tenths at the track because the power was added all accross like the headers do. but since torque is maintaned longer with the headers, track times could be more impressive than the dyno sheet.

If the track is open this sunday I'll be there and I'll do runs with and with out nitrous. :thumbs:

I'll try to get a before time slip and then slips of this sunday.

black99gt
09-11-2002, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by aleroboy


Well the Tb and CAI added 6hp and 8 ft lbs and gained 4 tenths at the track because the power was added all accross like the headers do. but since torque is maintaned longer with the headers, track times could be more impressive than the dyno sheet.

If the track is open this sunday I'll be there and I'll do runs with and with out nitrous. :thumbs:

I'll try to get a before time slip and then slips of this sunday.


Big Pimpin' :thumbs:

I like #'s :)

Drew99GT
09-11-2002, 12:50 PM
Hey AleroBoy, awesome results. I'm in the Springs, could I stop by and check your ride out sometime? What kind of times are you pulling here? Do you go to Bandimere or PMI? I've run a best of 16.5 @ 83mph at PMI, pretty weak, but enough to spoil a few Civic owners pride :thumbs: Anyhow, nice job. I'm heading to Bandimere today for test and tune, you should head up there if you can, starts at 4:30. Pray for no rain :D

Drew99GT
09-11-2002, 12:51 PM
By the way, is PMI still doing Friday night drags?

aleroboy
09-11-2002, 02:24 PM
My best was 16.4 with bad traction at PMI. I'd go to Bandi but I have to get a bunch of intakes out. I'll be out htis weekend if you want to meet up.
I'm always arround. Just drop me a line.

Oh and friday nights quit over a month ago :(

GTManiac
09-11-2002, 02:39 PM
INTAKES!!!!


YAY!!!

:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

Knappy1
09-11-2002, 06:18 PM
Those are some pretty impressive numbers...:thumbs:

DuBri
09-12-2002, 07:33 PM
So hey were those dyno numbers with just the TOG headers or were there other mods on that car?

mfuller
09-13-2002, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by DuBri
So hey were those dyno numbers with just the TOG headers or were there other mods on that car?
He has other modifications done to his car, so headers alone won't yield 175HP at the wheels, but he did compare two runs (showing a 18HP difference), with the only change between runs being the addition of headers.

nfsga
09-13-2002, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by mfuller

with the only change between runs being the addition of headers.
and a high flow cat

aleroboy
09-13-2002, 11:02 AM
Actually it wasn't but the cat was tracked before the runs and yelded no difference in times. the biggest gain form the RT cat is form the larger down pipe. Also TOG said some of the biggest gains form their headers were with stock cats so mine very well could be hurting performance. but I doubt it.

AROD2000
09-13-2002, 11:33 AM
Do the headers hook right up to the stock cat pipe
or is cutting and welding involved?

aleroboy
09-13-2002, 12:04 PM
Cutting and welding is involved. You cut rignt in fron of the stock cat and weld up the new flex pipe.

SteveGT1
09-16-2002, 02:31 PM
I just read 11 pages and my congrats go out to aleroboy, it seems nobody is "talking" now that the numbers back up his inital responce....good job bro:thumbs:

Vegeta
09-16-2002, 02:56 PM
Im not talking cause its pointless. We dont have anything else to compare his results too, nor a stock vehicle tested to see what the gains are there. No point in beating a dead horse right.

aleroboy
09-16-2002, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Vegeta
Im not talking cause its pointless. We dont have anything else to compare his results too, nor a stock vehicle tested to see what the gains are there. No point in beating a dead horse right.

A stock vehicle was tested by magnacharger but they won't release the dyno run.
It also gained 18hp but more torque than me. But the rest of my exhaust could cause that. I dunno.
True though it is pretty much a dead horse. The headers do add power. But if what you say is true about the design I'm curious to see what a set built the way you say would do. If they were equal length and shaped to the head how much more do you think would be gained if I got 19 from somthing like this?

kinda makes me wonder.

RGAGT
09-16-2002, 05:21 PM
can't Believe that this thread is 32 pages long but i'm adding to that Looking at the pics you won't beable to use a supercharger or Turbo with the headers :(

Vegeta
09-16-2002, 05:47 PM
Well I dont know if anyone will ever build a set of equal length heads cause its not gonna be me. If I had a 3400 I would do it, but I have the DOHC. I know of one person who might do it but its a wait and see deal. 18 hp is nice already so really the cost is the only issue I see for TOG right now. Your automatic is likely in the way for equal length as well cause the rear head will require 3 pipes running down and back for a while before the collector.

aleroboy
09-16-2002, 06:18 PM
The 2 problems I had were with the stock exhaust gaskets and the o2 extension.
both of which TOG is working out.
99-200 use one type of plug and the 01 02 use a different type.
The original car used was a 99 or 00 so the harness didn't work right on my 01. but now TOG has both styles.
also the exhaust manifold gaskets had to be modded to fit. but now all the headers come with a set of new gaskets that are met for the headers.

Also it threw a code about the cat, but after clearing that code it never came back. And just this saturday we had the tech 2 on it and had no codes about anything.

aleroboy
09-16-2002, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by RGAGT
can't Believe that this thread is 32 pages long but i'm adding to that Looking at the pics you won't beable to use a supercharger or Turbo with the headers :(

Actually the magnacharger was test fit with the headers and is fine.

Watch4MyBu
09-16-2002, 07:29 PM
Why would you not be able to run a supercharger. It doesn't fit to the exhaust at all. I want the rsm supercharger as well as the headers. Will the drive shaft of the vortech supercharger interfere with the headers

RGAGT
09-16-2002, 07:30 PM
good to know Aleroboy, I was wondering also why by the pic anyways looks like the header on the Front Runs on top of the motor past the intake to the back i could be wrong If this is so Why could they not just have it the Same Route as the Factory

bszopi
09-16-2002, 08:52 PM
Hmm... just thought of something. Anyone ever see John mention anything about issues with the knock sensor? Nope, don't think so. Gee, I guess those GM "engineers" who said that a 3400 will never be able to have headers because it will throw a code for the KS are pretty much, well... wrong!

Hmm... so, all of those people out there (and yes, there were alot of you) who kept bringing up the KS issue because Spoon or Fork, or whichever GM Engineer, said it wouldn't work... what do you have to say now? I guess all that time when I kept saying that you won't have KS issues, I was just talking out my ass because it "hadn't been done on a 3400".

Vegeta
09-16-2002, 08:53 PM
I completely forgot about that one. Of course I dont listen to those guys anyway.

aleroboy
09-16-2002, 09:04 PM
Yea I was looking forwad to proving him wrong.
And now he won't even look at this topic.
I knew no problems would exzist because of franz's car and how close his custom headers are to his knock snesor. and he had no retard on the scaner. Oh well, life goes on and more mods will be made. Now time for tranny upgrades since thats about the only thing limiting our power now.

GTManiac
09-17-2002, 03:42 AM
yes yes. tranny upgrades *rubs hands together and cackles* MANUAL! :D :thumbs:

aleroboy
09-17-2002, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by GTManiac
yes yes. tranny upgrades *rubs hands together and cackles* MANUAL! :D :thumbs:

Manual could be done. But that would be computer upgrades and wiring work.
plus the auto is better with nitrous.

Watch4MyBu
09-17-2002, 06:38 PM
For the tranny let level ten build one. Ther are the best around

PULSAR16
09-24-2002, 11:13 AM
Aleroboy did you go to the track yet and get your runs in?

aleroboy
09-24-2002, 11:22 AM
not yet:(
was goign to go to idrc but weather sucked.
I'll try to get to a test and tune soon. but the next one isin't till october :(

RGAGT
09-25-2002, 03:52 PM
Ok Gotta Ask this Quesstion Why Do The Headers Run the Front pipe up over and by the Air intake Which would not be a good thing. Why not run it the Way the Factory one isrun

aleroboy
09-25-2002, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by RGAGT
Ok Gotta Ask this Quesstion Why Do The Headers Run the Front pipe up over and by the Air intake Which would not be a good thing. Why not run it the Way the Factory one isrun

Sorry I'm a little lost. Go look at your motor, it's in the same spot as factory.
Also they headers are very well insulated and my intake stays colder with them installed.

Gator
09-25-2002, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by bszopi
Hmm... just thought of something. Anyone ever see John mention anything about issues with the knock sensor? Nope, don't think so. Gee, I guess those GM "engineers" who said that a 3400 will never be able to have headers because it will throw a code for the KS are pretty much, well... wrong!

Hmm... so, all of those people out there (and yes, there were alot of you) who kept bringing up the KS issue because Spoon or Fork, or whichever GM Engineer, said it wouldn't work... what do you have to say now? I guess all that time when I kept saying that you won't have KS issues, I was just talking out my ass because it "hadn't been done on a 3400".

Could this perhaps be the reason it took TOG something like 207 freaking years to bring the product to market! Don't get me wrong I am glad to see the headers are working without problems and show some sweet gains in the HP and TQ depts....I just don't understand what took so damn long to get them produced.

Richard
"Gator"

Schweppe23
10-05-2002, 10:17 AM
I am not sure if this was discussed already but i have a question, what are the benefits of the titanium ceramic coated headers over the nickel coated headers and is it worth the extra money.
Thank You

Pat Lavanty

AaronGTR
10-05-2002, 02:06 PM
I've got a question. I thought I saw a thread somewhere with a boost brother who got the headers, but I can't find it. Anyone know how that turned out. Did they fit? Did they make a big difference in power?

Also, has anyone heard about the S&S headers yet? Last I heard they were supposed to be ready to ship on 9/30/02.

bszopi
10-05-2002, 04:20 PM
GPXSS talked to S&S on Thursday and they said 3 weeks....

Vegeta
10-06-2002, 07:44 AM
I doubt they took that long because of the knock sensor. I mean, franz didn't do any testing on his headers to make sure the knock sensor wasn't an issue. Sure, the knock sensor probably picks up his header being so close...but the frequency its picking up is filtered out and not declared knock anyway.

aleroboy
10-06-2002, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Vegeta
I doubt they took that long because of the knock sensor. I mean, franz didn't do any testing on his headers to make sure the knock sensor wasn't an issue. Sure, the knock sensor probably picks up his header being so close...but the frequency its picking up is filtered out and not declared knock anyway.

Yea I know he had a scan tool on it and wasn't getting any more knock retard with or without headers. and his headers came real close to his knock sensor.

TA^Guy
10-06-2002, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by aleroboy
Yea I was looking forwad to proving him wrong.
And now he won't even look at this topic.

John I'm glad you proved that closed minded arrogant p---k wrong. Oh, I'm sorry was that me being rude, you better believe it. Jeez I wonder why he doesn't want to read this thread. It would really suck to preach something so much only to be proved wrong. I guess he should stick to building chassis and leave the motor work to more open minded people.

All in all I'm glad to see your gains, it just brings more after market along with it. We'll be seeing quicker GAs from here on out. Really we had no where to go but up, right? My GA isn't my race car so you won't see me spending that much for headers. But I'm still glad to see they are out there and working for you.
If you don't mind I'm going to spread your results with some other that might be interested and include a link to your site. And no they won't be bugging you about having a link on their forum and asking for money due to it.

aleroboy
10-06-2002, 10:03 PM
Thats fine! Spread the word! with all these new mods for the motor we need somthign for the transmission/ driveline side of things now.
I'm afraid to add more HP for shelling my tranny everywhere :(.

grass
10-07-2002, 03:51 PM
k i read bits and pieces of this thread

1. grats jon on the gains :)
2. cars looking good
3. who did you prove wrong and wont look at this thread?

aleroboy
10-07-2002, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by grass

3. who did you prove wrong and wont look at this thread?

Well I'd love to say names but I'm not going to rub it in.
Mainly soemone who said they would add no power and possibly cause losses because they would trip the knock sensor and cause ignition retard so bad the motor would nto gain.
But they did add hp and I'm getting up to like 40 degrees (can't remember exactly will test again if anyone really cares) of spark advance shown on my scan tool and no knock retard.


I think this is the first time a header thread could go on this long and not be locked. so thats the other reason for no names mentioned. I'd like to keep this one open. :thumbs:

Sorry_Officer
10-07-2002, 04:13 PM
Mine work. Nuff said. My engine actually runs cooler with the headers:D

GTManiac
10-07-2002, 04:25 PM
props to you both. :thumbs:

TA^Guy
10-07-2002, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by Sorry_Officer
Mine work. Nuff said. My engine actually runs cooler with the headers:D
I'm going to guess that you have a set of coated headers then correct?

aleroboy
10-07-2002, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by TA^Guy

I'm going to guess that you have a set of coated headers then correct?

all TOG headers are coated

zoran316
10-07-2002, 10:24 PM
if I got the nickel coated ones would the headers not give as much performance gains???

aleroboy
10-07-2002, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by zoran316
if I got the nickel coated ones would the headers not give as much performance gains???

Nickel is actually what I have and what was tested for 18 and 19 hp at the wheels.

Not sure what if any more hp the Ti-ceramic would add.
the nickel is also very effective at cutting heat. But will discolor a little bit.

zoran316
10-07-2002, 10:57 PM
oh great i think u just saved me $190 US hehe thanx :)

aleroboy
10-07-2002, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by zoran316
oh great i think u just saved me $190 US hehe thanx :)

No problem. I couldnt see sepnding the extra for a different coating and the nickel works great. I'm totally happy with my choice!
John

daddy_ja
10-08-2002, 02:00 PM
the the nickle plated ones are $700??? from you aleroboy??

aleroboy
10-08-2002, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by daddy_ja
the the nickle plated ones are $700??? from you aleroboy??

Yes plus 25 for shipping.

daddy_ja
10-09-2002, 01:12 AM
cool, i will be getting ahold of you in a few days!!!

TA^Guy
10-10-2002, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by aleroboy
all TOG headers are coated
Sorry John I meant with a product like JetHot or another ceramic style coating to reduce heat.

aleroboy
10-10-2002, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by TA^Guy

Sorry John I meant with a product like JetHot or another ceramic style coating to reduce heat.

yes they also offer titanium ceramic coating on theirs.
but in all honesty the nickel insulates very well too.
surface temp after driving for 3 hrs on my headers was around 240 degrees.

zoran316
10-10-2002, 02:47 PM
what is the difference between the 99 and 2001+ headers?

aleroboy
10-10-2002, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by zoran316
what is the difference between the 99 and 2001+ headers?

Just the O2 extension harness. The headers are the same.

phantom505
02-19-2003, 04:38 PM
Just got mine installed. They sound real nice with the Borla. The guy I took it to just got rid of the flange between the resonator and the cat in order to widen to 2.5". It seems to work just fine. Pulls hard even at lower RPMs (so it seems, but maybe it is just the sound :))

The only bad part is now I have a weird metal on metal rattling (right about 2250 RPM) and my gas pedal vibrates a bit all the time. I guess a piece of heat sheild is to blame. Any suggestions?

Schweppe23
02-20-2003, 12:59 AM
I noticed the same vibrations after i got mine installed. But i dont think its anything major.

Pat Lavanty

mfuller
02-20-2003, 07:21 AM
I had the funky vibes too. They subside after a week or so of driving.

CaliGrandAM
02-20-2003, 07:26 AM
1k for 5hp is not something I would go for.

Dr_Kyle
02-20-2003, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by CaliGrandAM
1k for 5hp is not something I would go for.

What do you mean? the charts show a 19 hp increase...??

phantom505
02-20-2003, 10:47 AM
Good, it not terrible, but I think the wife might get annoyed that I keep playing with it and have strange things going on. :)

jaketuff
02-20-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by phantom505
Just got mine installed. They sound real nice with the Borla. The guy I took it to just got rid of the flange between the resonator and the cat in order to widen to 2.5". It seems to work just fine. Pulls hard even at lower RPMs (so it seems, but maybe it is just the sound :))

The only bad part is now I have a weird metal on metal rattling (right about 2250 RPM) and my gas pedal vibrates a bit all the time. I guess a piece of heat sheild is to blame. Any suggestions?

You can get underneath and rip portions of the heatshield off. It is riveted (with flimsy rivets) to the 'tunnel' underneath the car. No one you sell the car to or trade it to will care that it is gone, I noticed nothing in heat buildup, or anything by tearing it out. And cosmetically it looks fine as well. I had to tear mine off after the RT downpipe began rattling on it.. it would make a metal on metal squeeking sound, especially down low. It would come and go... that is likely the source of the noise (cat/pipe tapping).

Pat

phantom505
02-21-2003, 09:18 AM
Is it possible that the flex pipe on the TOG heads is still stiff and this is why I might be getting this vibration still? I have noticed a slight diminishment in the rattle since Wednesday.

PontiacGT2K
05-15-2003, 09:53 AM
Would it be pointless to modify the headers for a true dual setup...with an X or H pipe down the line? I know v8's rawk with such a setup....but would ours benefit? Just a thought...

aleroboy
05-15-2003, 09:56 AM
wow talk about back form the dead:D
actually there was another thread on that though
to answer your question... no
the headers are designed to flow together.
you would have to start from scratch.
not to mention how hard it would be trying to get an equal length system with a trans verse engine.
single is actually the best for application.
John

PontiacGT2K
08-07-2003, 10:08 AM
Woot...I'm going to have S&S headers on in 2 weeks (waiting for flex pipe) and I'm getting before/after dyno results....so expect to see that soon. My car is bone-stock, with 80,000 miles.

If it adds a large number in HP, it'll be a miracle. I'm expecting 15hp at the wheel, 10-15 lb/ft. torque. Now if I had a supercharger (and CAI I ordered 4 months ago)...mabye I could expect 20+hp too....heh heh..... just playin John I'm still amazed by your numbers. You're truly the fastest '99+ n-body right now, if only you could get to sea-level!