MMS sets yet another new 3400 NA record

[MilzyZ34]

I posted about this in the "Hardcore..." post above, but felt it deserved its own thread. Anyways ...

Just got back from the dyno where we took our sponsored Stage 3 NA car for a little testing. The 2002 Grand Am GT made 227.1 hp and 194.8 ft-lbs at the wheels, setting a new record for an NA 3400 in an automatic car (Last week a customer with Stage 2, 5-speed car made a similar amount at the wheels, but the manual has less drivetrain loss) . These numbers are equal to roughly 284hp and 244 ft-lbs at the crank, so we increased the power output by ~109 horsepower!!
Also you guys should see the torque curve, it's very flat across the board. We've created a Monster!

I'll be posting this news and info about the sponsored car on my website in the near future.

[Gizm0815]

sounds awsome you have prices for this yet cuz i know people are gunna want to know

[lone_wolf025]

Holy crap! That's impressive. Great job Milzy.

[Rizzo22]

Yes congrats, and some actual track times would be great as well

[MilzyZ34]

sounds awsome you have prices for this yet cuz i know people are gunna want to know

The heads are not cheap as you can probably imagine. I expect to price them around $2,000, maybe a little less. They are the best heads on the market, bar-none.

As for the cam, it will be priced pretty close to the rest of our camshafts.

[MilzyZ34]

Yes congrats, and some actual track times would be great as well

The owner plans on going to the track in the near future if for nothing else than to learn how to launch the car. I have big hopes for the car. We'll be bringing that car and maybe a couple more to Michigan Grudge Match in Stanton, MI very soon.

By the way, I put up a little bit of info on the sponsored cars section of my website.

[Gizm0815]

i see that he has a mms custom 2.5inch downpipe is that something ur gunna start selling?

[harvester45]

Unreal! Awesome work, when I get a little cash to burn, you'll be the first person to know.

[Rizzo22]

Unreal! Awesome work, when I get a little cash to burn, you'll be the first person to know.

+1

[MilzyZ34]

i see that he has a mms custom 2.5inch downpipe is that something ur gunna start selling?

It was something we had to make to mate his S&S headers to the stock exhaust flange. I can make a 2.5" downpipe to replace the stock one if there was interest. Prices will be similar to my other downpipes.

I've also just added a little bit about the turbo project to the website in case you guys have been wondering about that.

[AaronGTR]

Awesome numbers man! Can't wait to see that thing run. :)

[Ajaxus]

my mouth is watering already, mgm is gonna rock with that beast tearing it up. :D

[NorKoastal]

It was something we had to make to mate his S&S headers to the stock exhaust flange. I can make a 2.5" downpipe to replace the stock one if there was interest. Prices will be similar to my other downpipes.

I've also just added a little bit about the turbo project to the website in case you guys have been wondering about that. Interested if I can bolt it to a stock exhaust mani and SLP 2.5"

I just smogged so a swapper with a Magniflow Hi flow woud be sweet.

[Rich]

Yes congrats, and some actual track times would be great as well

x2. thanks for expanding the GA's aftermarket!

[coupe]

:applause: :applause: :applause:


Im excited to see this thing at MGM!!!

[DrFabulous]

Congrats. Very impressive!

[2003SCT]

I could only imagine what could be done if you guys did a High Compression N/A setup!

Great work! So can you tell us yet what all you have done with the heads?



CHRIS

[Vegeta]

So you finally got better flow numbers than the stock 3500 heads below .450 lift?

[XtremeGaGt00]

x2. thanks for expanding the GA's aftermarket!

x3:applause:

[MilzyZ34]

So you finally got better flow numbers than the stock 3500 heads below .450 lift?

The heads actually surpass the 3500 heads at about .340" lift, and then just take off. Then again, when you have a .600"+ lift cam and a ton of duration, how often are you really below .450" lift anyways? :angel

One of the biggest differences between these and the Stage 2's is the valves. The stage 2, we used stock sized stainless valves. On these we went with big valves, but not just big, HUGE. I'm not going to disclose the valve sizes right now, so you're gonna have to take my word on it. We've also got some really heavy valvesprings on these babies, pushing out about 160+ lbs of seat pressure, which is more than twice as stiff as stock. The portwork on these heads is also top notch. I can't really tell you guys too much at this point, but I will give you a hint ... at .600 lift they flow 294cfm on the intake side! That's pretty insane for porting a stock casting. I'm sorry I'm not disclosing very much info, but I'm sure you guys know I have my reasons.

[lone_wolf025]

The heads actually surpass the 3500 heads at about .340" lift, and then just take off. Then again, when you have a .600"+ lift cam and a ton of duration, how often are you really below .450" lift anyways? :angel


:drool: So basically with your stage 3 kit the engine is producing more power than if you had swapped in 3500 heads? That's pretty sweet being the case. Now if only I had the money to burn on those... :crying:

Stupid question but I assume with the installation of the kit the everyday drivability goes down? Basically I'm wondering if it'll still be plausible to use it as a regular driver.

[Vegeta]

What does it flow with the lower intake manifold on there?

[xtremecold101]

Yes, its still able to be driven daily. It is my daily driver...... a very very fun daily driver. :heh:

[AaronGTR]

Interested if I can bolt it to a stock exhaust mani and SLP 2.5"

I just smogged so a swapper with a Magniflow Hi flow woud be sweet.


It obviously wouldn't since the stock downpipe attaches to the stock exhaust manifolds up by the engine and all the header outlets are down lower by the subframe. The header pretty much replaces all of the stock downpipe. A custom DP he made for headers wouldn't bolt to stock manifolds because they'd be totally different lengths. All it would be is basically a flex coupler with a short bend on it and a piece of straight pipe (with or without a cat) going back to connect it to whatever exhaust you have. ;)



Hey Milzy, those are some really crazy numbers for intake flow and the valve springs too. Sounds like they are really nice. I've always wanted some bigger valves in my heads too. I'm fairly certain I'm not getting everything I could be out of my modified rsm heads and they're probably limiting my power somewhat. I still have my stock heads lying around too. One of these days we're going to have to talk. :D

[MilzyZ34]

What does it flow with the lower intake manifold on there?

I don't see the lower intake as being a restriction. So it would probably flow the same amount. We'll likely be putting a custom upper intake on this car at some point, b/c I feel that is going to be a restriction. I think first though I'd like to put some bigger headers on the car b/c I don't think 1.5" primaries are optimal.

[Vegeta]

http://60degreev6.com/showthread.php?t=24984

Care to try again?

[O1GAGT]

Mike, congrats on the Stage 3 #’s I have a few questions about the setup.

1. Did you ever get the issues with the braking worked out? What was the problem?


The car runs like a scalded dog, but has had some braking issues that we're trying to work out.

2. With a 0.600 lift cam and tons of duration, how streetable is it? What is the idle set at?

3. With that much spring pressure, how well are the cam lobes going to hold up and what about the timing chain?

4. Also the 5 speed car was running your stage 2 cam with Brand “X” heads (ones that he ported himself) not your stage 2 heads correct.

[AaronGTR]

I highly doubt the cam lobes would have any problem. It's the stock hydraulic lifters you'd have to worry about at some point. That and yes, the stock timing chain too. I've seen plenty of them stretched out and wondering at what point they start breaking and we need to get someone to make us a stronger one.

[MilzyZ34]

:drool: So basically with your stage 3 kit the engine is producing more power than if you had swapped in 3500 heads? That's pretty sweet being the case. Now if only I had the money to burn on those... :crying:

Stupid question but I assume with the installation of the kit the everyday drivability goes down? Basically I'm wondering if it'll still be plausible to use it as a regular driver.

Correct, much much more power over a set of stock 3500 heads, although I don't think that is a fair comparison. The stage 3 heads are heavily modified, so it's not really fair to compare them to stock 3500 heads. The 3500 heads have very good midrange flow, but at higher lift, they are pretty even with standard 3400 heads. From my testing, I've found that on the intake side at .200 lift and .300 lift, the 3500 heads outflow the 3400 ones by about 27%, at .400 lift, it's 12%, and this number tapers down as you go up in lift. At .450 lift this difference is 7%, at .500 5%, at .550 4%, and after that, the 3400 takes the lead. On the exhaust side, the 3500 head is 19% ahead down low, then 12% again at .400, then tapers from 9%-7% from there on out. On the exhaust side, the 3500 head flows a little bit better.

To answer your question, my personal opinion about the 3500 heads is this... They work very well below .450" lift, so for cars without an aftermarket camshaft, they are a good choice. For people who want to run more than a stock cam, I think that ported heads are the way to go. We plan on offering ported 3500 heads in the near future. Is this something you guys would be interested in also?

[Badblack04GT]

the stage 2 in a 5 speed is a 3400 swapped Z24. The owner ported the heads top notch, it's also got the stock exhaust manifolds.

228.6 HP @ 5500 RPM
227 lb/ft @ 4500 RPM

http://www.v6z24.com/jbodyforum/files/thumbs/t_dyno-scan-228_web_165.jpg

That's running lean, he was tuning on the fly and apparently maxxed out the tables. I believe he'll be adding bigger injectors, my guess is about 240-250 HP at the wheels once he gets the tuning worked out... 260-270 at the wheels after we build him a set of headers... :leg

[MilzyZ34]

http://60degreev6.com/showthread.php?t=24984

Care to try again?

That's with a stock lower intake manifold :)

[lone_wolf025]

Thanks for the info Milzy. What's the ballpark dollar amount probably going to be on these again?

[Vegeta]

So go flow your ported lower. I know what mine does.

[MilzyZ34]

Mike, congrats on the Stage 3 #’s I have a few questions about the setup.

1. Did you ever get the issues with the braking worked out? What was the problem?



2. With a 0.600 lift cam and tons of duration, how streetable is it? What is the idle set at?

3. With that much spring pressure, how well are the cam lobes going to hold up and what about the timing chain?

4. Also the 5 speed car was running your stage 2 cam with Brand “X” heads (ones that he ported himself) not your stage 2 heads correct.

1. We switched cars. The original sponsored person dropped out when we determined that a vacuum pump was the next step to make the brakes work properly again. We took the parts off, and his brakes functioned normally again. I took the heads to be inspected, tested again, and then installed them on JP's car, and we had no braking issues whatsoever. We even had a vacuum pump just in case which we did not install. I guess something in the braking system of the first car was causing the problem.

2. It's pretty streetable actually. This is the owner's daily driver car. In the first car, I only added 50 rpm and was able to have it running at a constant rpm although pretty stumbly, but I like it that way. JP had me raise it to 850 for his car to smooth it out a little bit.

3. The cam lobes will have no problem with the amount of spring pressure we're running. I expect the lifters and timing chain to be the next weak link just as Aaron does. I'm working on having a timing set made, but not many machineshops want to mess with ANSI standards stuff, and the lifters seems like no one wants to touch with a ten foot pole. I'm still always working on that though. Anyways, we are putting more stress on these components right now, but we are keeping an eye out for any problems, and the car still is making no excessive valvetrain noise even with the heavy springs, so we're good to go.

4. I'm not sure what heads he was running exactly, but they were not our heads. He seems to be making very good power with his setup. i'm not shooting down his success with his car, but the numbers he had were going through a 5 speed trans before they got to the wheels, so efficiency was probably more like 90% instead of 80%. For instance with 90% efficiency, this stage 3 engine would probably make around 255 whp with the parts it has now. Anyways, i wish this guy all the best of luck with his 5 speed cavy, and hope he hits the numbers he's looking for. Just wondering though, his AF is a flat 13.1 line, so why do you think that's really lean? Seems almost right on to me.

[MilzyZ34]

Thanks for the info Milzy. What's the ballpark dollar amount probably going to be on these again?

Probably $1850-2000 is what i'm speculating right now for price for the Stage 3 heads.

[MilzyZ34]

So go flow your ported lower. I know what mine does.

I'm not going to make another set of these just to flow them for you, and I'm not going to take them off his car to flow them for you.

The answer to your question is they flow more than enough air to support 283hp, and more than enough to support the 300hp or more we'll be making with this setup when we get the bugs worked out.:applause:

[lone_wolf025]

300HP or more? Considering your current results I'd certainly think its doable.

2k ballpark huh? Well considering that a turbo kit alone would probably cost that much its a pretty good deal. Heh you'll definately be hearing from me when I have it. :D

[MilzyZ34]

Its basic math to figure out what the crank hp numbers are from the wheel hp. Just factor in the efficiency of the tranny and there you go. You dont really need a engine dyno for that. Its not needed.

by the way guys, Xtremecold here is John Paul Gradin, the sponsored Stage 3 guy:applause:

[Sprucegagt]

The heads actually surpass the 3500 heads at about .340" lift, and then just take off. Then again, when you have a .600"+ lift cam and a ton of duration, how often are you really below .450" lift anyways? :angel

One of the biggest differences between these and the Stage 2's is the valves. The stage 2, we used stock sized stainless valves. On these we went with big valves, but not just big, HUGE. I'm not going to disclose the valve sizes right now, so you're gonna have to take my word on it. We've also got some really heavy valvesprings on these babies, pushing out about 160+ lbs of seat pressure, which is more than twice as stiff as stock. The portwork on these heads is also top notch. I can't really tell you guys too much at this point, but I will give you a hint ... at .600 lift they flow 294cfm on the intake side! That's pretty insane for porting a stock casting. I'm sorry I'm not disclosing very much info, but I'm sure you guys know I have my reasons.

Unless you relocated all of the valve guides and rocker pedestals, I don't believe you were able to put "HUGE" valves in those heads. There is simply not enough room.

[MilzyZ34]

Unless you relocated all of the valve guides and rocker pedestals, I don't believe you were able to put "HUGE" valves in those heads. There is simply not enough room.

Any bigger valves, any more lift, or any more duration, and we'd probably have valve to valve clearance problems. This is what I mean by huge.

[O1GAGT]

I expect the lifters and timing chain to be the next weak link just as Aaron does. I'm working on having a timing set made, but not many machineshops want to mess with ANSI standards stuff, and the lifters seems like no one wants to touch with a ten foot pole. I'm still always working on that though. Anyways, we are putting more stress on these components right now, but we are keeping an eye out for any problems, and the car still is making no excessive valvetrain noise even with the heavy springs, so we're good to go.


How are you keeping an eye out, taking the timing cover off every few thousand miles and checking for stretch and damage?

Have you done stress tests on these components, to see how they will hold up? I know you say you are working on them, but several other people have tried in the past and came up empty handed.

Is there enough clearance to do to a double roller timing chain setup without a custom cover? If there is that would be the way to go.

I am just curious as if it were my engine I would hate for a weak component to fail, sending the pistons into a set of $2000 heads.


From Mymonte
How much would that run someone from the get go? Cost?

All the Stage 3 parts are still prototypes, but I expect the heads to go for about $1850-2000, so for a package that included all the stage 3 parts and basically everything but the throttle body, headers, crank pulley, exhaust, and cold air intake ... it'd be $3450. Our Stage 2 packages sell for $2650.

So basically if you add headers, TB, and exhaust you are sitting at around $5,000 and then you are going to have to address any tranny issues that arise out of having the added power, not to mention the weak links with the timing chain and lifters.

That would be fine if you were building an all out race car, but remember anyone that is building a race engine is going to want to know complete cam specs, flow data.




Lastly, one topic that has been going around for some time, that you have never put an end to is "what size bore is used when flowing your heads" and "What flowbench does the shop use"

Do you flow every set of heads or just one test set and copy the others to be similar to them? I have yet to hear one of your customers comment about recieving a flow sheet is why I ask. If you do flow every set, maybe you could post one of the flow sheets of a set that you have sold to a customer, wheather it be a stage 1, stage 2 or stage 3.

[MilzyZ34]

1 mm bigger than stock is hardly much to talk about. Plus your missing the point that I was making.

so would 2mm bigger be much to talk about?

[MilzyZ34]

How are you keeping an eye out, taking the timing cover off every few thousand miles and checking for stretch and damage?

Have you done stress tests on these components, to see how they will hold up? I know you say you are working on them, but several other people have tried in the past and came up empty handed.

Is there enough clearance to do to a double roller timing chain setup without a custom cover? If there is that would be the way to go.

I am just curious as if it were my engine I would hate for a weak component to fail, sending the pistons into a set of $2000 heads.


From Mymonte


So basically if you add headers, TB, and exhaust you are sitting at around $5,000 and then you are going to have to address any tranny issues that arise out of having the added power, not to mention the weak links with the timing chain and lifters.

That would be fine if you were building an all out race car, but remember anyone that is building a race engine is going to want to know complete cam specs, flow data.




Lastly, one topic that has been going around for some time, that you have never put an end to is "what size bore is used when flowing your heads" and "What flowbench does the shop use"

Do you flow every set of heads or just one test set and copy the others to be similar to them? I have yet to hear one of your customers comment about recieving a flow sheet is why I ask. If you do flow every set, maybe you could post one of the flow sheets of a set that you have sold to a customer, wheather it be a stage 1, stage 2 or stage 3.

We'll probably be doing tear downs from time to time to inspect for damage, but I don't feel there is a need to do this every "few thousand miles". I feel the brunt of the force is going to the lifters. if anything, the lifters will serve to cushion the blow to the timing chain.

Simple stress tests would not be enough, since these parts would more likely fail from fatigue and continual wear. The only way to truly test them would be in an engine. I've been going through these 3400's for a couple years now, replacing the weak links with better parts. the next two i see are the lifters and timing set, and I am actively working on getting these made, if for nothing else top have on our cars. I think some people had the same doubts when I talked about having cams made a while back.

It's also obvious to me that a double roller would be the way to go.

$5,000 may be a budget some people would cringe at, but others may have no problem droppping that much or even more. My goal is not to price everything out of reach of people, it is to offer the best parts at a decent price to the N-body community, and let the prices fall where they may. All the "big dogs" on the site would probably not think that my prices are out of line, considering I've even talked to one who said he spent around $1400 just on a set of custom valves.

Anyone who has asked for my cam specs has been given them, so that's really not a secret. I've been meaning to add them for some time, it's just mostly been a lack of time. I've had a ton of work to do, and there's always something more important that needs done. I also have meant to add all the gaskets and parts I have on the shelf to the website, and I've had powdercoating available for like 6 months now that I haven't added. It's just tough to find time, you know. As far as flow numbers, I've been protective about them, but I have posted flow numbers on the boards before when Sappy kept asking for them. I'm not going to post the Stage 3's until they are ready for sale.

For a while, I flowed every set of heads that came out of here so that I could establish some proven flow numbers, and they all flowed within 2 max cfm of eachother. i test them every once in a while now for quality control purposes, but not every set. When I get a chance to, I will post up the flow numbers for stage 1 and 2. I've got a few cars to get ready for the race, so it won't be until after then.

[MilzyZ34]

Being that is only a 0.078" increase, no. But what I'm more concerned with is your being misleading.

maybe "Huge" is relative. Relative to naval battle ship engines, even the biggest big block valves are tiny. Ok, I guess the valves are not huge, they're just "slightly" bigger than stock.

[BigChiefTonto]

:applause: This car is one hell of a beast...It just rockets out of a standstill like you guys wouldn't believe... I can't wait to witness what this thing will do in the quarter mile!

Congratulations JP, you've reached your goal... I never thought you'd reach it this quick, but I knew you'd get there eventually buddy. And also to Mike, for great work in getting these products out & showing what the 3400 is capable of! :applause:

[3x3]

I can't believe all of the negative comments on what was achieved with this car. I'm glad to see someone is still pushing the envelope with the NA cars. I agree with Aaron in that he is the first at least on these boards to accomplish those numbers on a Grand AM GT without juice or forced induction and we should be applauding his efforts. Ill be shooting to beat those numbers at the dyno at the end of this month. It's nice to have a friendly uphill battle. Pat and Todd are you up for a trip to stropes for a dyno day, PM me? Keep it up Mike with the performance parts.

[bszopi]

Why not just make it easy and don't correct for drivetrain losses. Then just say "We got XXXhp and XXXlb-ft with an auto tranny". Then people can assume their own drivetrain losses. Unless you can show that the auto tranny is loosing 20% (engine dyno and then chassis dyno with the same engine), there is no way to prove it. Just because GM rates their engines on a piece of paper to be XX and Joe Blow goes and runs on a chassis dyno and gets YY, doesn't mean you can assume that the difference is correct. GM uses SAE correction factors and an average across an unknown number of engines to come up with their HP ratings. Using that number (and then an assumed drivetrain loss) as a "baseline" is unfortunately a very poor way for comparisions.

Hmm, what do I think of the numbers... They are nice, but I also have my opinions on what has been said. Personally, I think the torque numbers are low. Basically says the engine is a high revver and might not be good off the line. I have noticed this when I had my regrind. My low end suffered some, but once the engine hit ~3k, it took off. I'm sure the high lift of the cam and most likely the LSA have alot to do with this. I personally would rather have a higher torque number than HP, or at least have them be close to the same. Even with lower numbers overall, I think it would yield a better quarter mile time. But that is just speculation...

As far as the valves go, I know what sizes can fit. Although I think somewhat larger valves could help out, on a high revving engine, I'm not sure I would want to risk the valves hitting when they really start moving. But remember that there comes a point where you have to compare lift with valve size and realize that no matter what happens, you will not get an increase in flow. There is a calculation out there describing it, but I can't think of it off the top of my head right now.

And finally, concerning the flow tests. I know this has been covered before, and across several different forums, but I don't think it has yet to be answered (nor do I really expect it to be). People often ask, when dynos are done, what type of dyno was used. So the same should be asked about flow benches. Stating a flow number really is worthless if the conditions of the test are unknown. If the head is set up on a bench that isn't set up to simulate the engine that the head is bolted to, then the flow numbers are not accurate.

I think that's all... Still decent numbers.

[Schweppe23]

Congrats Milzy, continue to push the envelope :thumbs:
Hows the turbo car? Any chance of it running at MGM?

[Vegeta]

What size throttle body was used on the stage 3 setup?

[xtremecold101]

What size throttle body was used on the stage 3 setup?

62 mm throttle body, it lists it on the MMS site under my list of mods.

[MilzyZ34]

Congrats Milzy, continue to push the envelope :thumbs:
Hows the turbo car? Any chance of it running at MGM?

I just got back from working on it for the day. I'm working just about every day to get the cars ready for the race. The only times I'm not working on them is when I'm going to doctors for my injuries, or going to dealerships shopping for a new truck. Anyways, my goal is to have 3 grand ams there (including JP's), and maybe my monte too. Only time will tell. Well, time to get some sleep so I can do it all over again.

[cmtapanes]

how about the tranny? can the tranny hold up that much power?
Do you have pictures for the turbo setup?

Congratulations on getting does numbers out off the 3400.

Hey Milzy if you need any type of help with your website let me know.

[O1GAGT]

we made 208 before on the 56mm tb, same headers, and a different downpipe. We found we had a clogged cat and made another downpipe for the second stage 3 car.

you're probably right, you'll get the same gains from a 62mm throttle body that you'll get from these heads and cam :rolleyes: :iconfused . If it's so easy to make this much horsepower, why haven't you. Apparently all you need is some of your ported intakes and a big throttle body, right?

Mike, I think you missed the point....

I think his point was that the your stage 2 put down 203 HP with the stock 56mm TB and that your stage 3 originally put down 208 HP with a 62mm TB.

Ok so you found you had a clogged cat dynoed with the stage 3 setup, that happens so you corrected this issue and made another down pipe, which you then put down 227 HP.

Again this comes back to the point of how much was gained with the 62mm TB, over the 56mm TB which is a bottle neck in the air intake system. Also the new down pipe could have given a boost in HP along with tuning, not to mention different dyno's giving different numbers.


Assuming that a 62mm on a modded engine will give a 10 HP gain, The stage 2 has a potential of reaching 213 HP.

Thus a stage 2 setup with 62mm TB could potentialy be only 14 HP behind a stage 3 setup not assuming differences in exhaust systems, temperatures, tuning, dyno's, and the fact that the stage 3 setup has "Huge Valves"

So in theory, if you step up to the stage 3 setup you would be paying $800 more than a stage 2 setup and be gaining 14 HP at most, along with stressing the lifters, timing chain, ect.


To me this just proves that high lift flow numbers by hogging out the heads combined with a extremely high lift cam, (IE. "MMS Stage 3") is not always the best way to go for performance and reliability.

[MilzyZ34]

Mike, I think you missed the point....

I think his point was that the your stage 2 put down 203 HP with the stock 56mm TB and that your stage 3 originally put down 208 HP with a 62mm TB.

Ok so you found you had a clogged cat dynoed with the stage 3 setup, that happens so you corrected this issue and made another down pipe, which you then put down 227 HP.

Again this comes back to the point of how much was gained with the 62mm TB, over the 56mm TB which is a bottle neck in the air intake system. Also the new down pipe could have given a boost in HP along with tuning, not to mention different dyno's giving different numbers.


Assuming that a 62mm on a modded engine will give a 10 HP gain, The stage 2 has a potential of reaching 213 HP.

Thus a stage 2 setup with 62mm TB could potentialy be only 14 HP behind a stage 3 setup not assuming differences in exhaust systems, temperatures, tuning, dyno's, and the fact that the stage 3 setup has "Huge Valves"

So in theory, if you step up to the stage 3 setup you would be paying $800 more than a stage 2 setup and be gaining 14 HP at most, along with stressing the lifters, timing chain, ect.


To me this just proves that high lift flow numbers by hogging out the heads combined with a extremely high lift cam, (IE. "MMS Stage 3") is not always the best way to go for performance and reliability.

No, like I said, the Stage 3 car that made 208 did so with a 56mm tb.

When we used this downpipe on the second stage 3 car, we found it to be clogged. It only would make sense that it was clogged on the first car since we pulled it off one car and put it on the other, and since the second car was already tuned beforehand with a perfect 13:1 afr.

The downpipe which we replaced was a 2.5" mandrel pipe which we replaced with a 2.5" mandrel pipe.

I believe everyone here knows you can't just add up hp gains for single mods. Otherwise a car with a crank pulley, intake, exhaust, and headers would supposedly be making lmost 200whp, which we all know isn't true.

Do I think the Stage 3 is for everyone? Definately not. Do I think anyone will ever go with Stage 3? Probably a handful, but not near as many that would opt for Stage 2. So why then put together a Stage 3? To raise the bar in 3400 performance, and run the fastest times possible, while testing and proving the gains along with driveability.

Also keep in mind we're not done yet at 227. We plan on changing out the headers, we're going to need atleast a 65mm tb if not bigger, and we're considering installing a 3" exhaust on the car. We also have some other ideas up our sleeve. Only time will tell how far we'll go with the Stage 3 package. Myself, I have high expectations.

[O1GAGT]

I believe everyone here knows you can't just add up hp gains for single mods. Otherwise a car with a crank pulley, intake, exhaust, and headers would supposedly be making lmost 200whp, which we all know isn't true.



The assumption was that on a modded engine a 62mm would gain 10HP (maybe more maybe slightly less) But with the throttle body being the bottle neck in the intake system, it is unargueably going add some power.

This assumption would be no different than you assuming a 20% drive line loss for the 4t45e.

[xonelith]

http://www.grandsontario.com/gallery/albun10/aas

That answers that. The stage 2 car making 203 whp uses a 56mm TB and the stage 3 car uses a 62. That right there could be more than half your power difference since your TB is stock, but the rest of the motor is modified.


FYI, I'm just waiting on the 65mm, so maybe, if I can get my lazy ass to the dyno, this can show the gain between the two setups? I think another diff, is I'm using TOG headers.

IDK, I'm afraid to post, cuz I support Milzy. Seems there are alot of Milzy haters here.

As a side note, I have put over 100 000km's (60 000miles) on his parts with no problems (and Yes I'm still shifting at 6800rpm... ALOT). Maybe it's a freak, but I've only changed the oil, filter & sparkplugs, and cleaned the air filter.

Anyways, congrats Milzy! Great Numbers!!! Keep up the R&D!!!

[xonelith]

If you bought one from me, you would have it by now. Oh well, I look forward to your 65mm TB results. My prediction? A more usable powerband and near the same peak numbers as the stage 3.

I really don't know who you are, but I suspect you are from 60*V6. I was gonna buy your TB, but I'm a loyal return customer. Since I haven't had any problems, I continue to go to the same place. Nothin wrong with your part or anything, just something I tend to do.... call me silly:)

I hope your prediction is right!! I'd like to get some good numbers like that! But we'll see. I don't wanna get my hopes up

[Vegeta]

Yeah I understand, but its a bit different when I have had them for a while now and they still aren't on the MMS site. I wouldn't have waited for a TB with your setup.

I go by SappySE107 on 60V6.

[lone_wolf025]

With those heads on it and that cam in it I'd love to hear it,anyone hook us up with a sound file by chance??

Here's a quick vid of it being pulled up onto the trailer at MGM. Its not much and was kinda a last minute thought but you get the idea.

http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i155/lone_wolf025/?action=view&current=MOV00564.flv

I've also got a quick one of Schweppe23's ride if anyone's interested in a sound comparison :D

[lone_wolf025]

For some reason the full link gets shortcutted. Lets just try embedding it
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i155/lone_wolf025/th_MOV00564.jpg (http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i155/lone_wolf025/?action=view&current=MOV00564.flv)

[Schweppe23]

Here's a quick vid of it being pulled up onto the trailer at MGM. Its not much and was kinda a last minute thought but you get the idea.

http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i155/lone_wolf025/?action=view&current=MOV00564.flv

I've also got a quick one of Schweppe23's ride if anyone's interested in a sound comparison :D

I would :)

[lone_wolf025]

lol Yea I'm sure....BUT a request is a request :D

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i155/lone_wolf025/th_MOV00539.jpg (http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i155/lone_wolf025/?action=view&current=MOV00539.flv)

[moonwell]

Wow, this is quite the thread...

Here is an idle vid of the aforementioned 5 speed stage 2 in my '94 Z24... don't mind the cicada background noise lol
Car moves at the end if you keep watching.

http://www.v6z24.com/jbodyforum/download.php?id=8686

[Sprucegagt]

Okay, I just got finished cleaning up this thread. I want to keep it open, but it's up to all of you to keep it that way, cause I'm not going to clean it up again.

[xonelith]

well, since we are sharing video clips:)

http://www.grandsontario.com/albums/albun10/abz.wmv

[coupe]

Wow i missed the action in this thread i guess lol

It was amazing to hear both JP's and Pat's GA's in person.
Pat would start his and i would stop doing whatever i was doing and watch then JP would start his and i would do the same thing. It was like i was watching a ping pong or tenis game lol

[ramairfreak98ss]

I just like milzys new truck lol. Where are the mods for our old pre 99s lol, id like to make 220hp at the crank!

[cmtapanes]

Thats a bad sound on that car. What's on it?

lol Yea I'm sure....BUT a request is a request :D

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i155/lone_wolf025/th_MOV00539.jpg (http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i155/lone_wolf025/?action=view&current=MOV00539.flv)

[ram444]

Wow you guys are realy putting down some good power. makes me kinda wish I still had my GA. I think Ill stick with my 6 though. I would like to pick up another GA for a daily driver again.

[MilzyZ34]

I just like milzys new truck lol. Where are the mods for our old pre 99s lol, id like to make 220hp at the crank!

:) Me too!

[O1GAGT]

So.... did you ever figure out the deal with the blue smoke from the exhaust?

[MilzyZ34]

So.... did you ever figure out the deal with the blue smoke from the exhaust?

I don't remember the blue smoke you're talking about, but before i fixed the car at the track that morning, the transmission shop had messed up the ground for the MAF sensor, and forced the pcm into open loop. JP ran the car like this for a few hours that day. Some of this smoke could be attributed to this. The car also does not have a cat, so this creates a more visible exhaust also. The overlap inherent in the camshaft also allows unburnt fuel to escape out the exhaust. So basically the smoke isn't a problem.

[O1GAGT]

I don't remember the blue smoke you're talking about, but before i fixed the car at the track that morning, the transmission shop had messed up the ground for the MAF sensor, and forced the pcm into open loop. JP ran the car like this for a few hours that day. Some of this smoke could be attributed to this. The car also does not have a cat, so this creates a more visible exhaust also. The overlap inherent in the camshaft also allows unburnt fuel to escape out the exhaust. So basically the smoke isn't a problem.


The blue smoke that I am refering to is visable in the video of the stage 3 car.

Last I remember running rich made black smoke......not blue

[Vegeta]

The car also does not have a cat.

Is there a reason it doesn't have a cat? Track only car?

The overlap inherent in the camshaft also allows unburnt fuel to escape out the exhaust.

How is overlap inherent in a cam shaft. Inherent means belonging by nature or habit. Overlap is ground based on specs, not inherent just because its a cam. Having unburnt fuel is inherent to have a MMS stage 3 cam perhaps. Having a cat on there will burn off the unburnt fuel in the exhaust.

So basically the smoke isn't a problem.

I disagree. It may not be your problem, but its a problem.

[lone_wolf025]

I only recall seeing it as he was pulling the car onto the trailer. Later on when it was removed again I didn't notice it. Lets just ask JP if it's still an issue.

[Vegeta]

That is true, it could be something that only happens on initial startup. Still, you don't usually see that happen unless either the valve stem seals/guides are bad, or rings. Another possibility is the PCV system. I had to put a catch can on my DOHC engine because it would ingest oil due to the crankcase pressure and the total seal rings. Im not sure how much of an issue that is for the 3400 though given its crankcase ventilation setup.

[AaronGTR]

It could just be water vapor. Once again you guys are blowing something way out of proportion. You can't really see what it is with the low quality of that video and the short amount of time you see it run.

[MilzyZ34]

Is there a reason it doesn't have a cat? Track only car?



How is overlap inherent in a cam shaft. Inherent means belonging by nature or habit. Overlap is ground based on specs, not inherent just because its a cam. Having unburnt fuel is inherent to have a MMS stage 3 cam perhaps. Having a cat on there will burn off the unburnt fuel in the exhaust.



I disagree. It may not be your problem, but its a problem.


It doesn't have a cat b/c JP doesn't have emissions testing and didn't want to put one on there. The difference in power between a high-flow cat and no cat is minimal, so I didn't have any preference. I suppose he made the decision b/c cat's aren't free, and b/c a cat can get clogged and a straight pipe can't.

I'm glad to see you know what inherent means (or did you have to look it up?). The overlap is inherent on a performance cam made to make max power given the parameters of this 3400 engine. We're not designing an economy cam here or one that will idle so smooth you won't know it's running. our goal is to make power and make the car accelerate as fast as possible, so the specs we came up with are designed to do so.

[MilzyZ34]

That is true, it could be something that only happens on initial startup. Still, you don't usually see that happen unless either the valve stem seals/guides are bad, or rings. Another possibility is the PCV system. I had to put a catch can on my DOHC engine because it would ingest oil due to the crankcase pressure and the total seal rings. Im not sure how much of an issue that is for the 3400 though given its crankcase ventilation setup.

The PCV system has been removed and replaced with breathers.

[izayn]

Milzy,

How much are you estimating it be for all the parts to go from a stock UIM LIM CAM and Head to stage 3?
Are you going to try to pull off 300hp before you start to sell?
When everything is ready how long is it from order to delivery?

[MilzyZ34]

Milzy,

How much are you estimating it be for all the parts to go from a stock UIM LIM CAM and Head to stage 3?
Are you going to try to pull off 300hp before you start to sell?
When everything is ready how long is it from order to delivery?

A Stage 3 package would basically be the same as our Stage 2 package, but with different heads, cam, and pcm. The only major price difference would be the heads. Stage 2 package is $2650, and Stage 2 heads on their own are $1200. Therefor, I would expect a Stage 3 package to cost about $3450, maybe a little less. Other mods like cold air intake, exhaust, headers, and throttle body will be necessary to make max power with this setup. I may end up making these parts options in the Stage 3 package.

We're waiting probably until atleast spring to release the Stage 3 parts, simply to get some decent road and track testing in between now and then.

Our typical turn-around time on Stage 2 packages is about 4-5 weeks. The Stage 3 may take 1 week longer, but maybe not. There is significantly more porting and machinework which could cause the extra week.

[AaronGTR]

The PCV system has been removed and replaced with breathers.


Bad idea. Some turbo guys remove it simply because of difficulty of plumbing the system to keep positive pressure out of the crank case. The PCV valve is supposed to act like a check valve but it doesn't seal all that well or hold much pressure. On an NA car though there's no reason to remove it. There's no performance advantage to doing so and with no suction from the intake you lose the ability to remove combustible contaminants from the crank case. That will lead to oil contamination, sludge formation, as well as higher fuel consumption and evaporative emmissions. You can put a breather on the rear cover, but the front should stay connected to the intake. If you have trouble with oil build up in the intake you can always put a catch can in the pcv line.

[MilzyZ34]

Bad idea. Some turbo guys remove it simply because of difficulty of plumbing the system to keep positive pressure out of the crank case. The PCV valve is supposed to act like a check valve but it doesn't seal all that well or hold much pressure. On an NA car though there's no reason to remove it. There's no performance advantage to doing so and with no suction from the intake you lose the ability to remove combustible contaminants from the crank case. That will lead to oil contamination, sludge formation, as well as higher fuel consumption and evaporative emmissions. You can put a breather on the rear cover, but the front should stay connected to the intake. If you have trouble with oil build up in the intake you can always put a catch can in the pcv line.

That's funny. Us L67 guys have been doing it for years now without issues. :) I've also never had any sludge in any car I've built or owned in the 6 years I've been doing this.

[AaronGTR]

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h63.pdf

Quick search turned that up. Similar to what I've read in my service manuals and some of my other books. Just because you guys have been doing it for years doesn't mean it's smart. If you change oil frequently enough and use higher quality oil (which most performance modding people are doing anyway) you won't notice as much of the negative affects on oil consistency. Thats doesn't mean it isn't still happening to a degree, and that you aren't still losing the other positive benefits of the pcv system. And again, if there is no performance gain to be had why remove it?

[MilzyZ34]

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h63.pdf

Quick search turned that up. Similar to what I've read in my service manuals and some of my other books. Just because you guys have been doing it for years doesn't mean it's smart. If you change oil frequently enough and use higher quality oil (which most performance modding people are doing anyway) you won't notice as much of the negative affects on oil consistency. Thats doesn't mean it isn't still happening to a degree, and that you aren't still losing the other positive benefits of the pcv system. And again, if there is no performance gain to be had why remove it?

from skimming that post it seems to me you're confusing having an open breather on the valvecovers with having no ventilation whatsoever. It says that the most blowby ventilation is needed at high engine speeds, which happens to be where vacuum is zero. During idle and deceleration, when vacuum would be the highest, "blowby production is very low". So basically we're venting off the crank case even more than the pcv valve is, during critical conditions. Now if we sealed the valvecovers off, that's when we would have the contamination problems the article talks about.

[Sprucegagt]

Are you two through yet? I hope so cause if not, well I'm sure you get the idea.

[AaronGTR]

Wrong. Blowby production is lower during idle and low rpm, that is correct. And yes there is less or no vacuum in the intake tract during higher rpm operation when the blowby is created so the pressure differential is not much different than open atmosphere. You aren't venting off the crank case anymore that way as you claim though. When there is no vacuum to pull it out it just accumulates in there and builds up until it eventually gets to the valve cover, and the process of evening out with the outside air is very slow and won't happen fully untill the engine is shut off. With the pcv system intact, the difference is when you let off the throttle there is once again vacuum in the intake to suck out those gases. So every time there is a throttle change the system balances. And again there is the point of re-burning those combustible gases as fuel for improved economy and not venting them to the air as more pollutants. And AGAIN, if there is no performance to be gained from eliminating it then why do it?

Bottom line is this. The amount of blow-by will vary depending on the engine build and how much power it's making, and how much it really needs a pcv system will depend on is normal operation range and usage, but basically for any car that is street driven and not a "track-only" car it should have a pcv system in place.

[AaronGTR]

Are you two through yet? I hope so cause if not, well I'm sure you get the idea.


What? We're having a good technical discussion here with information that should prove useful to anyone interested in the operation of an engine. I thought thats what this section was for?

[Sprucegagt]

You sure about that. Your posts sure do sound like your attacking Milzy.

[AaronGTR]

Attacking him how? Am I saying anything bad about him personally? I'm saying it's a bad idea to remove the pcv system and giving reasons why. That sounds like a technical discussion to me. Why would I attack him?... I bought one of his friggin' cams after all. I think it's awesome what he's doing with these cars and give him props all the time. That doesn't mean I can't disagree with him on something and think he shouldn't say it's ok to remove an emmissions system from a street car.

[Sprucegagt]

You made your point. Just don't let it get out of hand.

[CUSTOMGAGT2000SEDAN]

i would setle for 300 hp . is that at the weels or crank? the most wheel hp and torque you can get would suit me . and if it is not too crazy a total pricce .

and if i professional engine mechanic any / most types of car repair places could do easyily enough. because i know nothing about do this work nor do i know anyone in particular to do it . other then my gm dealer or find a performance or engine shop ??

[MilzyZ34]

Are you two through yet? I hope so cause if not, well I'm sure you get the idea.

I don't think that we're arguing, just having a discussion. Does it seem like we are?

[MilzyZ34]

Aaron, I think we disagree on a few things. I don't think that the fact there is vacuum at idle drastically affects the amount of contaminates removed by the pcv or breathers. All of our camshafts reduce engine vacuum, so if that's the case, all of our cams will cause a loss in pcv efficiency in idle, according to what you're saying. I have customers out there who've put 100k miles on their cammed 3400's, with only regular maintenance (3k mile oil changes, etc). if there was a major problem with this, these cars would have bottom end damage by now, would you agree? This particular cam decreases engine vacuum to 8-10 inHg at idle, so the vacuum is already 1/2 of what it was anyways with the pcv system intact. Now at high blowby conditions, our breathers have the potential to flow more than the pcv system does. You also asked why remove the system ... I feel that any non-pure elements introduced into the intake manifold would only negatively affect the performance of the engine, so EGR and PCV have both been removed so that the only things going into the intake manifold are the fuel from the injectors and the air from the intake tube. You may disagree with my removal of the PCV and/or EGR, but I stand by my decision to delete them, and I think I've supported my reasons why.

[MilzyZ34]

i would setle for 300 hp . is that at the weels or crank? the most wheel hp and torque you can get would suit me . and if it is not too crazy a total pricce .

and if i professional engine mechanic any / most types of car repair places could do easyily enough. because i know nothing about do this work nor do i know anyone in particular to do it . other then my gm dealer or find a performance or engine shop ??

300 crank hp, roughly equivalent to 240whp.

I doubt the GM dealer would want to touch the job, and if they did, they would offer no warrantee whatsoever. Any competent engine mechanic or engine machine shop would be able to handle the job no problem. We also offer installs in house, prices can be found on the website under "Services".

[Vegeta]

How long have the cams been out now? 100k miles on a cam?

[timberwoof]

Okay I think I missed something. Now you guys are talking about stage 3 setups.

What's new on this setup compared to the 2?

[MilzyZ34]

How long have the cams been out now? 100k miles on a cam?

April of 2005 is when I started installing them. Maybe it was 90k, I think my km to miles conversion factor was a little off, but yeah I do have customers who drive 5k miles/month. Tim Kaczun with his 13 sec GT is one of them. :)

[MilzyZ34]

Okay I think I missed something. Now you guys are talking about stage 3 setups.

What's new on this setup compared to the 2?

well the short version is...

heads - big valves, heavier springs and valvetrain, more portwork

cam - more lift, more duration, more overlap

[Vegeta]

good because I was starting to worry about your cams. I take it they are cast billet then, or the gear would destroy the iron gear on the oil pump drive.

[timberwoof]

just curious Milzy. I have an GA SE, all these setups will fit correctly, since the engines are the same right? PCM tuning should also be the same also?

Reason I'm asking is cause I'm tired of getting ragged on for having a mommy car, and my buddies have sportier cars. I'm trying to make somewhat of a sleeper so when I take them to the track, they won't be laughing anymore. Once I do that I'm gonna start on the outside.

They know i already have a CAI and looking into exhaust, but have no clue I'm looking into heads, cams and Intake Mani's.

Now last question, the PCM tuning is just a start for the setup, do you recommend a little tweaking to get everything just perfect for the car or do you think its good just the way it comes.

[MilzyZ34]

just curious Milzy. I have an GA SE, all these setups will fit correctly, since the engines are the same right? PCM tuning should also be the same also?

Reason I'm asking is cause I'm tired of getting ragged on for having a mommy car, and my buddies have sportier cars. I'm trying to make somewhat of a sleeper so when I take them to the track, they won't be laughing anymore. Once I do that I'm gonna start on the outside.

They know i already have a CAI and looking into exhaust, but have no clue I'm looking into heads, cams and Intake Mani's.

Now last question, the PCM tuning is just a start for the setup, do you recommend a little tweaking to get everything just perfect for the car or do you think its good just the way it comes.


All the parts will swap to a 3400 powered SE. The PCM's are slightly different in the transmission tables b/c of the different final drive ratios. The engine settings would be the same.

The "off-the-shelf" pcm's we sell work great, but custom tuning on a dyno with a wideband will only help your car reach it's full potential. The off-the-shelf pcm's are designed to give a good gain, but they are set a little on the safe side to ensure there will be no issues on any car. What this means is that some cars for instance could get away with a little more timing advance than others, and could potentially gain some power here with proper tuning. we offer dynotuning if you're interested.

[timberwoof]

All the parts will swap to a 3400 powered SE. The PCM's are slightly different in the transmission tables b/c of the different final drive ratios. The engine settings would be the same.

The "off-the-shelf" pcm's we sell work great, but custom tuning on a dyno with a wideband will only help your car reach it's full potential. The off-the-shelf pcm's are designed to give a good gain, but they are set a little on the safe side to ensure there will be no issues on any car. What this means is that some cars for instance could get away with a little more timing advance than others, and could potentially gain some power here with proper tuning. we offer dynotuning if you're interested.

Milzy, I'm in south texas man. I would love for you to dynotune, but not practical right now.

[xonelith]

How long have the cams been out now? 100k miles on a cam?

Sorry, this is my fault. I may have said miles to Milzy.

I put on just over 100,000 km's on Milzy's setup. Lots of driving to and from work, including daily hits at 6800rpm (onramp to highway:)).

So, I think, looking at my speedometer, that's around 60,000 miles. Sorry for the confusion and don't bash Milzy... it's my error.

Oh, and I have had a few problems. Needed to change sparkplugs a few times (tuning too rich), and a few headlights have gone out in that time :).... I better be careful and not jinx myself...LOL

xon

[Vegeta]

Im not bashing milzy. If you talk to cammotion though, you might be a little worried about your oil pump drive gear.

[timberwoof]

Any more on the Stage 3 kit. Maybe a date on which it is going to be available, and if there have been any trouble with the road testing???