Intake Debate

[Rizzo22]

I was reading on a local GP site aswell as clubgp.com and realized that alot of the GP drivers go with a 4" FWI located behind the headlight instead of a CAI. Their reasoning for this is that there is more air movement in that position(with headlight removed) than there is in the fenderwell. They believe the ability to take in more air offsets and out weighs the advantages of drawing in cooler air from the fenderwell. Here is an examples of the style intake they use:

http://www.gpjazz.com/images/Quicksilver06_052.jpg

What are your thoughts?

[lone_wolf025]

I could see that concept. But I would think for everyday purposes its not gonna work as well as a CAI. On track days where you can actually remove the headlight you'd just wind up with the advantage while the car is moving. For things like dyno tuning or just power on demand the benefits would be minimal I would think.

I know for our cars with a CAI it would actually be ideal to open up the dual slots on our bumpers (the ones next to the foglights near the end corner of the bumper) I can't recall if SEs have the same slots. But anyways if you could open the one side by cutting out the plastic you'd have an abundance of airflow going across the filter when moving...or at least that's what I think.

[pyro]

SE's dont...but good idea...just get some of that mesh to go over it too...and make sure you get a cone filter bag.

[AaronGTR]

It won't work on GA's since we don't have an opening behind the headlight. ;) Most people's cars here are still NA too and smaller displacement than a 3800 so they aren't pulling in as much air and don't need that huge volume. They'll benefit more from more air density (cooler air charge) and we can fit a plenty large enough CAI thru our fender to provide all the air we need.

[Rizzo22]

I could see that concept. But I would think for everyday purposes its not gonna work as well as a CAI. On track days where you can actually remove the headlight you'd just wind up with the advantage while the car is moving. For things like dyno tuning or just power on demand the benefits would be minimal I would think.

For everyday use wont matter as much unless you have your PCM values set as a constant whether track or street. As far as tuning thats where actual WOT scans with a laptop and powertuner would be helpful and you can switch back and forth between track and street when needed.

It won't work on GA's since we don't have an opening behind the headlight. ;) Most people's cars here are still NA too and smaller displacement than a 3800 so they aren't pulling in as much air and don't need that huge volume. They'll benefit more from more air density (cooler air charge) and we can fit a plenty large enough CAI thru our fender to provide all the air we need.

True say one was to relocate the battery and cut an opening behind the headlight, would this than have an advantage even on an NA car with say a 3500 swap or Stage 2 setup from MMS.

Im trying to get some ideas

[AaronGTR]

I highly doubt it, and it wouldn't be worth weakening the car's structure for. Leave the frame alone. It's not just a sheet in that spot, it's boxed in for ridigity. :thumbs: It's part of the crash structure.

[drumking1721]

Yea I dont know if you guys ever heard of ZZP...i was talking to a guy at the store and he said you get a good amount of boost from where it is in the 3800's. They believe getting the air to the cone works better than taking the cone to the air,like in our cars..

[drumking1721]

Id be willing to try it if i can figure out where i can place the battery

[lone_wolf025]

Yea I dont know if you guys ever heard of ZZP...i was talking to a guy at the store and he said you get a good amount of boost from where it is in the 3800's. They believe getting the air to the cone works better than taking the cone to the air,like in our cars..

Its about as close as you can get to a true ram air setup for a transverse mounted engine you can get I would think. That's probably why it works so well.

[drumking1721]

^^ No Doubt....i mean the guys up there know what there talking about...but all they do is 3800's...they just make fun of how much our cars weigh....ugh i knew i should have went with a gtp

[lone_wolf025]

Yea but then you'd be missing out on all the fun of this place! Besides the way I see it is what's harder to do? Mod out a GTP or the GAGT. Personally I like the challenge...or at least thats what I keep telling myself.:D

[drumking1721]

Yea...but theres SO much you can do with GAGT...where as there parts gallore for the GTP and such...yea its a nice little care...but im running out of stuff to do,i mean MMS is a lifesaver for us...idk. It just seems like you run into a lot of dead ends with this car.bla im rambling...i took tylenol PM...good stuff hhaha

[Sprucegagt]

There is plenty you can do with the GA. It's just a matter if you want to dig into it or not. Plus the GP guys don't always know what there talking about. Also tell them the GP is no paperweight either.

[drumking1721]

oh yea i know....ps tylenol PM...

[LoboMan7409]

SE's dont...but good idea...just get some of that mesh to go over it too...and make sure you get a cone filter bag.

Where do you get the cone filter bags, and what are their purpose?

[AleroB888]

I was reading on a local GP site aswell as clubgp.com and realized that alot of the GP drivers go with a 4" FWI located behind the headlight instead of a CAI. Their reasoning for this is that there is more air movement in that position(with headlight removed) than there is in the fenderwell. They believe the ability to take in more air offsets and out weighs the advantages of drawing in cooler air from the fenderwell..................

Yea I dont know if you guys ever heard of ZZP...i was talking to a guy at the store and he said you get a good amount of boost from where it is in the 3800's.

"The popular idea of using a forward-facing air inlet to "ram" the air into the system is not entirely well thought out. For example, a vehicle traveling 100 mph in still air will see a dynamic pressure, or overpressure due to ram, of only about 0.18 psi..........for velocities under 200 mph, ram is insignificant."
-- Corky Bell (_Supercharged_)

Wow, I didn't know GP's could run that fast.

[pyro]

Where do you get the cone filter bags, and what are their purpose?
from K&N and the like...they fit over the filter to protect it more from dust/water.

[AaronGTR]

Yea I dont know if you guys ever heard of ZZP...


Dumbest question EVAR right there... we've been picking their brains and comparing what they do with GP's to our GA's for a long long time. They've had some parts for the GA available for several years too. Of course we've heard of them.


Id be willing to try it if i can figure out where i can place the battery


Ok, I'll try this again... THIS WON'T WORK ON A GA! We don't have a hole behind the headlight like GP's do. They are different cars with different chassis and different frame structures in the front. What works for one car will not necessarily work for another. Oh, and the fact that we don't really know that it works that well for them either. It's just an easier solution for intake design given their frame design. Easy for them, hard for us... understand now?


i mean the guys up there know what "they're" (not there) talking about...but all they do is 3800's (exactly, they don't know 3400's)...they just make fun of how much our cars weigh (oh wait... GP's weigh 3400lbs+ and GA's weight 3100lbs or less... what are they making fun of again?)....ugh i knew i should have went with a gtp

GA's weigh less than GP's. They also handle much better and have much stiffer frames. When I put my GA up on jack stands it is solid. When I put my GP on jack stands the doors bind when you open and close them because the unibody is flexing. 'nuff said.

[Rizzo22]

never did think of the frame structure being a factor.

AaronGTR why are you always so negative towards diff ideas? Every thread i see your always downing some idea. As Sprucie said just trying to dig into and get diff ideas and possibilities.

[LoboMan7409]

from K&N and the like...they fit over the filter to protect it more from dust/water.

So it helps keep water from getting into the air filter?

[drumking1721]

Dumbest question EVAR right there... we've been picking their brains and comparing what they do with GP's to our GA's for a long long time. They've had some parts for the GA available for several years too. Of course we've heard of them.





Ok, I'll try this again... THIS WON'T WORK ON A GA! We don't have a hole behind the headlight like GP's do. They are different cars with different chassis and different frame structures in the front. What works for one car will not necessarily work for another. Oh, and the fact that we don't really know that it works that well for them either. It's just an easier solution for intake design given their frame design. Easy for them, hard for us... understand now?




GA's weigh less than GP's. They also handle much better and have much stiffer frames. When I put my GA up on jack stands it is solid. When I put my GP on jack stands the doors bind when you open and close them because the unibody is flexing. 'nuff said.


No need to be hostle..chill

[Phuxed]

I'm gonna agree with Aaron on this one. Cutting into your frame is just not a hot idea, unless it somehow adds a TON of power. This would add minimal and unverified results at best. It's just not worth the work/potential danger. It would be like doing an engine swap to add about 10hp. <--True story, one of the "ricers" did that to his car, the other ricers even laughed at him lol

[drumking1721]

I wasnt going to cut into my frame!

[Phuxed]

How else were you gonna open up the spot behind the headlight?
I highly doubt it, and it wouldn't be worth weakening the car's structure for. Leave the frame alone. It's not just a sheet in that spot, it's boxed in for ridigity. :thumbs: It's part of the crash structure.

[drumking1721]

Hadnt got that far...ive just been looking around for idea...im taking one step at a time

[KpazzH0ly]

Aaron is right on this one.
Ram air isnt going to help you unless you reach much speeds.

If you wanted to do something like this get plumbing to go in behind the grill in the bumper. Although I think that with that amount of plumbing ull just lose out. But hey at least it'll be cold.

[Phuxed]

Isn't that all that the GT "Ram Air" is, just a pipe from the grill to the airbox?

[AaronGTR]

never did think of the frame structure being a factor.

AaronGTR why are you always so negative towards diff ideas? Every thread i see your always downing some idea. As Sprucie said just trying to dig into and get diff ideas and possibilities.


I'm not... they aren't new idea's thats why. When you've been around as long as I have and keep seeing the same stupid stuff cropping up you have a tendency to shoot it down before people get out of hand with stuff that won't work. I'm only trying to help people avoid making stupid mistakes. Sorry if you don't like the way I do things.

[AaronGTR]

No need to be hostle..chill


That wasn't hostile... it was just a freindly reminder to read the rest of the thread first since it was already explained why what you said was a bad idea and wouldn't work. ;) I get tired of repeating myself is all. Try not to get offended so easy.

[angrysk8r]

They believe the ability to take in more air offsets and out weighs the advantages of drawing in cooler air from the fenderwell.

I disagree.

Many GP owners agree that a fenderwall intake is not only much cheaper but is just as, or more than the wizair, or any sort of cold air box. However, there are some that go with the cai-box for a cleaner looking engine bay and a better protected filter. As far as performance goes, theres not much gains to be had between the two... except for the 150$ you save with a homemade FWI. IMO, the homemade wins...

Here is a thread from Clubgp arguing between the two.

http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=3143614&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=best%2Cintake&language=single&tmode=&smode=&s=#3143614

Note that following quote is from a respected vendor of grand prix parts.

While fenderwell intakes can be made for cheap many don't like the way they look when home made and still some others prefer not to have to paint them. For them we have the JMB fenderwell intake. Powdercoated in your choice of color with a very nice look and excellent performance. Theoretically it should outperform any "box" style intake on the market. I'm saying theoretically because I have nothing other than speculation to prove that theory other than the fact that we see significantly cooler IATs with the fenderwell than the boxes.

As I've mentioned in other threads, I ripped out the POS Wizaired for a ZZP duct FWI. Well, I got to scan it yesterday in 82 degree ambient temp. The IAT's at 70 mph cruise were 84deg. F.

There are other similar threads found on the clubgp boards and I've found most argue in favor of a fenderwall due to cost effectiveness. I wouldn't bother with building a box unless you really want to.

And as long as we're on the topic, I'll throw this in.

"Intercooled" intake

http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=2393530

I'm willing to bet he puts up better IAT's than most.

[drumking1721]

That wasn't hostile... it was just a freindly reminder to read the rest of the thread first since it was already explained why what you said was a bad idea and wouldn't work. ;) I get tired of repeating myself is all. Try not to get offended so easy.

Fair enough....