stock 3400 vs top end swap vs ported manifolds

[Vegeta]

Ive been using dynomation with pro tools for a while now to develop my ported heads and intake manifolds. Its pretty accurate too, from the stock 3400 and 3500 power numbers to a modified WKA spec briggs 5 hp engine. It is setup so that it shows you the potential with proper tuning, not so much what you will get if you just throw parts at a motor. If you look at the stock 3400 numbers I am about to post, you will notice they are higher than the rated 175 or whatever GM has. You can tune your stock 3400 and get more power from it, and hopefully everyone understands that tuning works wonders on a highly modified engine.

What im working on now is the 3400 with 3500 top end and a stock cam. I also have the numbers for my ported manifolds on the stock 3500 heads so I am able to show those theoretical gains as well. I hate guessing and giving people hp gain numbers, but now I have something that can fairly accurately give hp gains.

Here are the stock 3400 numbers with 56mm TB, stock 3500 top end with 65mm TB numbers below that, and finally the stock 3500 heads with my ported manifolds and 65mm TB. All use the stock cam, stock exhaust manifolds, and flow numbers with manifolds on the heads. 3500 top end swap reflects compression loss as well. I have .pdf files of all 3 scenarios if someone wants to check it out.

http://60degreev6.com/store/dynomation/3500TECdynomation.jpg

If you would like to learn more about the software and why I am confident enough to post "desktop dyno" results, check the link below.

http://www.proracingsim.com/dynomationmainpage.htm

I understand these are not official results by any means, but instead of saying "I don't know', I can give you an idea. I will post the 65mm TB simulation on a stock 3400 as well.

[zerocool]

good info, ill hafta check out the site this weekend. keep up the good work:applause:

[Vegeta]

What do most of your stock 3400s dyno stock? Phil got 143 whp on a mustang dyno and im curious what other dynos show.

[Rich]

Oh...FWIW my baseline was 152 fwhp and 165 tq. Stock with K&N filter and Amsoil synth. with an SAE correction factor of 1.07

Your gains are nice...regardless of how much money you spent. You are making a solid 30whp gain over stock(using mine as stock because when yours was stock your graph would mirror mine)



CHRIS
from:
http://www.grandamgt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64770

im sure he has the chart somewhere.

[Vegeta]

Well, the cavalier guys that are swapping them are getting 170-193 with CAI and UDP. That doesn't make much sense to me if its supposed to be 175 crank hp stock. Phil had 5 degrees KR minimum on the dyno stock so the stock tune may be an issue. I really wish we had the ability to tweak everything in the computer like I can with some OBD1 code.

[iceman]

http://www.ice8420.com/displayimage.php?album=28&pos=54

That was my dyno w/ TOG headers, CAI w/ K&N, pro-M MAF, SLP exhaust w/ cutout open before muffler, DHP PCM 1.0.. don't believe I had any KR during the pulls either.

Had powertuner come out a few months earlier I would have kept going w/ my car.. very disheartening to have 13 degrees of false KR you cant get rid of making top of 2nd through third gear suck.

[Vegeta]

You definetly needed some tuning though, which would mean higher numbers. Still good to see whats going on with these engines.

[iceman]

Absolutely... so nice that there are 2 tuning programs out now :(

As far as track results.. my quickest 1/4 was bone stock. With all the mods, I was getting loads of false KR at the mid-top of second gear all the way through third, which killed my 1/4 mile times. Car was a beast off the line though.

[Sprucegagt]

Absolutely... so nice that there are 2 tuning programs out now :(


OT: I love my Powrtuner. No more false KR for me. Plus no more lugging the car at 40 MPH thanks to no TCC lockup in third gear.

I know I shouldn't rub it in, but I can't help it. :ban:

[timberwoof]

I know this is probably about the tuning program, but are you pointing out the combination of 3500 head, ported (3400?) manifolds or (3500?), and the 65mm TB will net you more HP, for your buck?

I just don't want to go through to much trial and error to get better results

This is an interesting Thread VEG

[Vegeta]

This is stock 3400 vs stock 3500 heads with manifolds, and then ported manifolds on the 3500 heads. I still have to do a stock 3400 head with ported lower and ported 3500 upper. In fact, I have a lot of things to do.

I can modify the heads and manifolds based on cam specs and powerband now:) There is a lot more to it than flow and this program is putting the exclamation point on that.

Im still waiting for a reply from DHP as I want to become a reseller for them, as well as work with them on doing some custom burns for modifications. Hell, i was trying 4-6 months ago!

[AaronGTR]

When you test that it's goind to be stock 3400 heads with a ported 3400 lower and ported 3500 upper right? Because it's my understanding that you can't use the 3500 lower with the 3400 heads because the intake port moved slightly to the side? Just want to make sure that's clear so people understand which combo is being tested. That would certainly be a good one to see since there seems to already be a large number of people with ported 3400 heads and LIM's that have switched to 3500 UIM's. :)

[Vegeta]

The ports are higher so you can't use the 3500 lower on 3400 heads. Its really a shame too cause the 3500 lower is better than the 3400 as well.

Ill be testing lots of scenarios but I have to port a set of manifolds to do any testing with that. Im still very busy with the 3500 heads since I have to complete a motor here soon. I know what I want, now I just have to do it.

[lone_wolf025]

Couple dumb (uneducated) questions:

Is it possible to keep the 3400 block and swap in all 3500 parts on the top?

Also I gather you're posting this to show us how well the 3500 top swap w/large TB perform and comparing it to just a 3400 port job?

I know they're dumb questions, but the information is a little over my head as of yet :(

[Rich]

more info:

http://www.grandamgt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60424&highlight=3500+swap

[Sprucegagt]

Couple dumb (uneducated) questions:

1. Is it possible to keep the 3400 block and swap in all 3500 parts on the top?

2. Also I gather you're posting this to show us how well the 3500 top swap w/large TB perform and comparing it to just a 3400 port job?

I know they're dumb questions, but the information is a little over my head as of yet :(

1. Yes that includes heads, LIM, UIM and 65 mm TB. You can't use a stock 3500 TB since it's drive by wire.

2. Yes

[lone_wolf025]

Ah I should've known. Forgive me for acting like such a noob :doh:

[Kaptain Kirk]

Very informative Veg, I need to come down to warsaw soon and pick your brain a little !

[Ajaxus]

so warsaw is where he's at, lol

i might have to go down there as well, drive isn't so bad.

[timberwoof]

So.... So far what is the best scenario for the best results. Put it in str8 prane engrich sew eye kan unberstood.

[Vegeta]

Of available parts or parts still in R&D? What powerband? Peak RPM? Peak power, torque, area under the curve for HP, or TQ? Budget? NA or boost?

It seems to like a 500 shot of nitrous. I don't think its factoring that the engine might not survive though:P

Seriously though, Too much to account for. I don't have all the information on the cams available to do a comparison I can share. I have the ramp up rate of the lobes on a crane regrind and applied it to the MMS cams but I cannot publish the results without knowing I can represent another companies products as accurately as stock and my own.

[timberwoof]

VEG I'm just talking about the heads, and IMs and TB. You are pushing the 3500s all over the place. What is your recomendation and combination which works best so far. The internals like cams and stuff can come later when you get the results. but I'm not looking into internals just yet being that I have no idea how to change them yet.

[Vegeta]

3500 top end with 65mm TB. Ported manifolds a plus. With a stock cam thats a very healthy upgrade.

[timberwoof]

so a complete top end swap? aight thanks for the run around then straight answer. <<Sarcasm

next question - Can you get a SC on there without any problems?

[O1GAGT]

so a complete top end swap? aight thanks for the run around then straight answer. <<Sarcasm

next question - Can you get a SC on there without any problems?


Yes, the 3500 top end provides a very nice gain.

A supercharger should bolt up fine to he heads, as the external dimentions of the heads are identical between the 3400 and 3500.

I dug up a few pics that I took showing a side by side comparison of the 3400 & 3500 heads. (*3500 heads are the cleaner set with the rocker arms)

Notice the much higher intake port location on the 3500 head
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v709/Black98zq8/1b46826a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v709/Black98zq8/d5cca65d.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v709/Black98zq8/10e5e87b.jpg

[timberwoof]

okay is there a porting difference or does it matter in this case

[Vegeta]

Run around?

[timberwoof]

Do a lot of you guys on here have buttons that just set you off, or is it contagious. Cause if it is I don't wanna get it. I have a button which the criminal push at work but I can handle that with a tazer and handcuffs.

[Vegeta]

Well now im officially confused.

So what do you mean by porting difference?

[timberwoof]

Well I notice that the intake port is higher than the stock, which accounts for the better flow, right? Would it help further to port out the 3500 or is there no gasket out there that would fit? Just like porting out the 3400 stuff and getting gains, will porting out the 3500 hurt or help?

[Vegeta]

The 3500 heads don't gain flow like the 3400 heads when you open them up. Until someone actually does it, we won't know for sure what happens though if you do hog it out. I know what it does on the bench, with the manifolds on and I know what the simulation results are.

I wouldn't open up the head ports any unless you are going boost.

[timberwoof]

good to know. post the site for the 3500 swap again please. Gotta put it in favs for future ref.

[Vegeta]

http://60degreev6.com/showthread.php?t=32908

That one?

[lvemy3100]

uh oh I think I may have to do this... 3500 ported that is...

[jackal2000]

What do most of your stock 3400s dyno stock? Phil got 143 whp on a mustang dyno and im curious what other dynos show.
i dynoed at 144whp bone stock on a dynojet


http://www.cardomain.com/ride/718375 scroll down for the charts

[timberwoof]

uh oh I think I may have to do this... 3500 ported that is...

DO IT... DO IT!!!!!

[AaronGTR]

i dynoed at 144whp bone stock on a dynojet


http://www.cardomain.com/ride/718375 scroll down for the charts


I got 142whp bone stock on a dyno jet before I started modding.

[Vegeta]

Ok, so what do bone stock grand ams with proper tuning get?

[AaronGTR]

Good question. I've never heard of anyone tuning a bone stock car and doing before/after dyno's. When we first started tuning them with DHP most of the cars were already modded because they were trying to make their v1.0 generic pcm that would work with the most typical mods. They mostly all had cai/exhaust/t-stat and a few had headers.

[Vegeta]

Id consider CAI and exhaust before and after as stock. I am just curious about the tuning aspect because most of the time you see stock vs modded/tuned so the mods alone are being compared and the tuning gets overlooked in the equation.

[timberwoof]

Hey VEG, Any dynos done with the different combinations yet, to see which one works out best?

Stock with Ported 3400 LIM and UIM?

3500 complete swap, no other mods?

Ported 3400 LIM with 3500 UIM and TB?

and any other ones you can think of. I'm trying to weigh my options, which one for cheapest with most gains.

I'm not looking for flow rates I'm looking for HP...

[el nino]

im with him ^^

[AaronGTR]

If you think about it, the parts with the highest flow rates will have the least resistance and should make the most horsepower, so you can kinda answer your own question. You can't measure everything with HP though, because the parts with the highest flow will also have the most potential to make more power when combined with other mods. Ability to add future power adds to a parts value and worth of installing IMO.

[Vegeta]

Its not all about flow though. That said, the 3500 stuff is still a lot more impressive.

I don't have any dyno results.