Got an RSM kit and have some questions.

[KhellendrosxS]

This kit was purchased from 01GAGT who beefed up and fixed all the known issues.

When I bought this he included some 28 lb injectors and a boost sensitive fpr exactly like the one included with the Eaton kits. My first question is for people that actually have the kit installed or know more about fuel management than I do. In the instructions I got with it there is a section that goes over replacing the fuel injectors with the ones supplied. However, if the Eaton can run on stock injectors could the RSM run on the stockers with the fpr as well? Or should I play it safe and go the extra mile and put the new ones on?

Second question relates to the tapping of the oil pan. I need a more detailed picture of the oil feed line and how it hooks up to the sender unit. I am trying to work out a way to tap the pan in the location suggested in the instructions without removing, unhooking, unbolting anything. Im going to grease the bit and attach some of those small neodymium to the bit to hold on any metal shavings. Im also going to flush the pan and fish a magnet around inside the pan after tapping. Then, just to be extra safe Im going to stick several larger ones to the underside of the pan to trap any possible loose particles. I used this method when I overtightened the drain plug on my old S10 and had to retap the hole. I never had a problem so I would assume it will work for this too.

Thirdly, how does one adjust the blow off valve. I am just putting this on for about a 6psi boost. I know with the Eaton the actual pulley has to be changed to raise and lower boost but does the BOV function to relieve boost if it gets too high with the RSM kit?

Lastly, the MAF sensor is removed from this setup. I want to keep the MAF with all my heart. I cannot remember where the MAF is on the intake but how might I go about putting it into this setup. The Eaton uses the stock MAF but I was reading up around here and some have said that a 2 Bar MAF is needed for this to work right which would require a reprogram of the MAF tables. Why would this kit need a 2 Bar MAF and the Eaton doesnt even thought they both claim the same power output (8PSI)?


Thanks!

[lastyear4gt]

I suppose if you are only running 6-8 PSI, that the stock fuel injectors should be ok. The 2000+ are rated at 22.5lb/hr. So if the injectors you got are 28lb/hr, its not a huge jump. AaronGTR know alot more about this than I do, but I am running my stock injectors at 8psi with a tune. No idea how it will turn out, as long as I dont get detonation, ill be ok. IMO, if the kit come with it why wouldn't you put them in, its a free upgrade. I have to pay to upgrade mine!

As far as tapping the oil pan, the whole magnet idea will not work because you are taping an aluminum oil pan. Granted if you drill with grease and flush after you may get alot of it out. I would have to see where they suggest drilling, but I would imagine it would be fairly close to the oil pump. So if I were in your shoes, I would remove the pan and tap it on the bench.

Regarding the boost, the only way to change boost on a supercharger is to change the pulley. Ive never worked with the vortec superchargers so I dont know how the adjustable BOV works.

[AaronGTR]

Exactly. Pan is aluminum, magnets won't do jack. Removing the pan is not that big a deal. Just suggest replacing the gasket with a new one when re-installing. If you're really set on not taking it off, grease the bit when drilling and grease the tap when threading the hole, then drain the oil when done and refill with new. That should get almost all of the metal shavings out, but not making any promises and the risk is up to you. Your choice.

For the injectors, yes you could probably leave the stock ones in there with the RRFPR, but they will probably run on the lean side. New injectors and proper tuning are really the safer way to go and you'll get better power from it too even at the same boost level, plus you'll be able to up the boost later if desired. Since you have to take apart some of the fuel system anyway to install the FPR why not just install the injectors? Again, it's not that hard. Also, the 28lb injectors are factory injectors from the 4.2L inline six engine so they are a fine spray pattern just like the stock injectors. They will keep good idle quality easier than a stream spray pattern injector like the 42lb's and since they aren't that much bigger it will be easy to adjust the tune for them and get it dialed in.

You will need a tuner to do this if you don't have one already, or get someone with a tuner to help you with it if you can't afford it/don't want to buy one. At least have someone adjust the injector constant in the pcm for you, then it should run ok. Milzy and Schweppe23 are both in Ohio and could probably help you with that.

Lastly, the MAF sensor is removed from this setup. I want to keep the MAF with all my heart. I cannot remember where the MAF is on the intake but how might I go about putting it into this setup. The Eaton uses the stock MAF but I was reading up around here and some have said that a 2 Bar MAF is needed for this to work right which would require a reprogram of the MAF tables. Why would this kit need a 2 Bar MAF and the Eaton doesnt even thought they both claim the same power output (8PSI)?

MAF's do not have bars, thats MAP's. The powrtuner allows you to switch to a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor on the intake manifold, but there is an issue with that feature that hasn't been solved yet so it's not really working right. Regardless, you dont "have" to switch to a 2bar MAP. You SHOULD however keep the MAF sensor installed, unlike what RSM says. This topic has been covered multiple times and the info is there. You have to modify the piping from the blower outlet to the throttle body and route it so that you have room to put the MAF in front of the throttle body and behind the blow off valve (BOV). That will make it so the MAF doesn't read air that escapes thru the BOV when the throttle closes. You can do this with simple sections of aluminum pipe and silicone couplers you can find on the internet. Some people add an intercooler to the setup while doing this re-routing, but that adds cost and complexity so you can always do it later on if you feel like it.

[mfuller]

I was wondering about the placement of the MAF as well, as this seems to be a point of debate. Some say put it between the TB and BOV, but I have seen on Vortech's tech install docs (for the Corvette and GTO, for example) that the MAF stays upstream of the compressor, much like an Eaton setup, where the MAF is located upstream of the blower. Which way is correct?

[AaronGTR]

I was wondering about the placement of the MAF as well, as this seems to be a point of debate. Some say put it between the TB and BOV, but I have seen on Vortech's tech install docs (for the Corvette and GTO, for example) that the MAF stays upstream of the compressor, much like an Eaton setup, where the MAF is located upstream of the blower. Which way is correct?


It depends on the cars engine management system (how it's tuned and what kind of MAP sensor it uses and how it uses the MAP for fuel adjustments) and whether they use a BOV or not. If you are running fairly low boost you don't absolutely HAVE to use a BOV. Then the MAF could be upstream and you don't have to worry about lost metered air. IMO it's still better to use a BOV though and personally I would never put the MAF upstream in that case.

[KhellendrosxS]

Arron,

Small question.

I have no idea what I am doing when it comes to fuel management though Im willing to soak up info. As I said before I got 28lb injectors and the Eaton style FPR. My question is as follows: if I put in the new injectors AND the FPR will I need to tune the injector tables for the larger injectors? Or should I leave the stock injectors in for now and run with just the FPR and look into tuning and installing the 28lb injectors in the future.

As a driver I am not abusive to my GA at all. I drive like a granny and hardly ever push the car past 3500 RPMs. I can count the number of times I've hit WOT on both hands and never plan on running this down the quarter mile without tuning. Basically this is going to be a show-over-go car. Im more interested in the "wow" effect of the s/c than the zoom zoom.

Thanks for any info!

[mfuller]

I'd just stay with the stock injectors if you aren't pushing it. WOT requires the larger squirters.

[AaronGTR]

Aaron,

Small question.

I have no idea what I am doing when it comes to fuel management though Im willing to soak up info. As I said before I got 28lb injectors and the Eaton style FPR. My question is as follows: if I put in the new injectors AND the FPR will I need to tune the injector tables for the larger injectors? Or should I leave the stock injectors in for now and run with just the FPR and look into tuning and installing the 28lb injectors in the future.

As a driver I am not abusive to my GA at all. I drive like a granny and hardly ever push the car past 3500 RPMs. I can count the number of times I've hit WOT on both hands and never plan on running this down the quarter mile without tuning. Basically this is going to be a show-over-go car. Im more interested in the "wow" effect of the s/c than the zoom zoom.

Thanks for any info!



Thats a waste of a good supercharger dude. lol If you were running the stock pulley for lower boost I'd say you'd be ok for now with just the pressure regulator. It would still be better to have it tuned though. Doesn't matter if you don't hit WOT very often or not. The SC is still going to change the characteristics of how the engine runs... and trust me, once you get boost installed you'll want to use it more often. It's addictive. :)

I'd like to see the actual fuel pressure regulator too. I don't see how you can have a magnacharger style one since they were custom made and only sold with the magnacharger kit. More than likely it's a vortech rising rate regulator, but I don't know what RSM supplied with theirs. Or it could be a caspers adjustable FPR.

Anyway, like I already said it would still be better to just install the bigger injectors now and get it tuned. And yes, anytime you change injector size you HAVE to tune the pcm to match or it won't run well. It's like a 5min job to change the injector table and flash the pcm, not hard. If you really can't do that now, or need to get the car running first with the SC on, you could leave the stock injectors in but don't do any WOT driving! If getting tuning is the issue you can take it to someone later to put the injectors in and change the pcm at the same time. If you're going to make major modifications like supercharging there is a certain amount of effort and learning required. That's the cost of the "wow" as you put it. ;)

[KhellendrosxS]

Its not that I never want to tune it. Its just that at this point it was a tooth and nail fight just to get my wife to let me buy this one (I had purchased one of the original eaton kits too). Someday soon when I have the money for a DHP Ill be buying one but I dont want to drop that ball too soon if you know what I mean. It is February around here and I dont want to have to sleep in my car too :hammer: . Anyway I was just hoping to get the thing installed and running and then in a few months do a tune.

[Sprucegagt]

There is no point in putting that SC in unless your getting it tuned at the same time. Too many people here have done the same thing and have been disappointed with the results. Having the PCM tuned is "rule of thumb" for ANY engine that originally came N/A that your switching over to boost.

[KhellendrosxS]

Unfotunately for me I have neither the time nor the place to work out all the kinks all at once. For one my father in law is part owner of the NAPA in town but one of the guys has been restoring a Datsun and at the moment its on the only lift in the shop so whenever it comes down and I get a few days Ill be putting this on before the Datsun goes back up in the air. My only other option is my dads machine shed which would have me on my back with no suitable jacks/stands/ramps and laying on gravel. Therefore, when I get time off work this puppy is going in the car and Im going to take it hella easy till I can get it tuned. I know that the car is going to run crappy and outside its full potential but I feel that as long as I take it easy as I always have it shouldnt cause too many problems. Remember, I said that its something Im going to do eventually (as in several months after the install if I get it in in March) by June/July I will have my hands on a DHP for sure.

Plus, If it breaks I have a bumper to bumper warranty till ~93000 miles (currently hovering at 65000miles) purchased from the used car dealer (family friend) I got it from. It cost an arm and a leg but if ANYTHING goes (LIM/blown engine/tranny/etc.) wrong it gets fixed with a $200 deductible. However, I dont forsee a two/three month run on no tuning tearing the car apart especially the way I baby this thing.

[AaronGTR]

fyi, that warranty won't cover aftermarket modifications. They'd deny you for sure. I don't see it being a problem though. If you're easy on it like you said until you get a chance to change injectors and tune it, it should probably be alright.

[SpyhunteR]

Unfotunately for me I have neither the time nor the place to work out all the kinks all at once. For one my father in law is part owner of the NAPA in town but one of the guys has been restoring a Datsun and at the moment its on the only lift in the shop so whenever it comes down and I get a few days Ill be putting this on before the Datsun goes back up in the air. My only other option is my dads machine shed which would have me on my back with no suitable jacks/stands/ramps and laying on gravel. Therefore, when I get time off work this puppy is going in the car and Im going to take it hella easy till I can get it tuned. I know that the car is going to run crappy and outside its full potential but I feel that as long as I take it easy as I always have it shouldnt cause too many problems. Remember, I said that its something Im going to do eventually (as in several months after the install if I get it in in March) by June/July I will have my hands on a DHP for sure.

Plus, If it breaks I have a bumper to bumper warranty till ~93000 miles (currently hovering at 65000miles) purchased from the used car dealer (family friend) I got it from. It cost an arm and a leg but if ANYTHING goes (LIM/blown engine/tranny/etc.) wrong it gets fixed with a $200 deductible. However, I dont forsee a two/three month run on no tuning tearing the car apart especially the way I baby this thing.


Warranty's go to hell w/ aftermarket modifications. You're pretty close to being SOL. Dont' install anything until you have the ability to tune the motor.

[lastyear4gt]

Its not that I never want to tune it. Its just that at this point it was a tooth and nail fight just to get my wife to let me buy this one (I had purchased one of the original eaton kits too). Someday soon when I have the money for a DHP Ill be buying one but I dont want to drop that ball too soon if you know what I mean. It is February around here and I dont want to have to sleep in my car too :hammer: . Anyway I was just hoping to get the thing installed and running and then in a few months do a tune.

OK, 1. If you had an eaton, why'd you change to a rsm, and 2. I know where your comming from on the wife thing. I bought my supercharger, and to date have put $1000 in extra parts in and not even running/tuned yet.

But once again, you have to pay to play! Do it once, do it right, or dont do it at all.

P.S. Shoud've stayed with the magnacharger IMO, but im biased though!

[KhellendrosxS]

My Eaton was the pre production style kit (gen 3) and didnt bolt directly to my 01. I didnt have the time to fool with it so I sold it and got something that I know will work.

[Sprucegagt]

Somehow I don't see you babying the car after putting in a SC. The first thing anyone would want to do is put your foot in it. That's what's going to lead to trouble without a proper tune.

Also if you think detonation won't be a problem then remember this. Knock sensors can pick it up way earlier than your ears can, but the PCM can pull only so much timing and no it's not enough to prevent damage. Instead what you'll hear is a rod knock from too much detonation.

Listen to the people here. We don't want you making a $2000+ mistake.

[KhellendrosxS]

So I had an idea in the shower today:

Im postponing the install till I can get my hands on a DHP and learn to use it. In the meantime Im working over the install stuff and thought up something that I wanted to run by some of the more knowledgeable people here. My idea is to install a small oil reservoir (like one from a motorcycle) to the feed line and then hook it up to the return so that it will hold all of the engine oil to feed the supercharger without tapping the pan. The only thing that needs to be addressed is if the oil has to be pressurized for it to feed the oil supply line, hence the hooking up of the pressure sender unit to the 't' in the supercharger line fitting. If that is how it works could I put some kind of pressure on the reservoir to compensate for not having it hooked to the pan somehow?

Im just trying to think outside the box here so dont flame me too badly.

Im open to other ideas if anyone has them...


Thanks

[XtremeGaGt00]

i have this kit, and honostly, i think youd save alot more money/time if you just drop the oil pan and tap it...

[KhellendrosxS]

i have this kit, and honostly, i think youd save alot more money/time if you just drop the oil pan and tap it...

Not trying to be an ass her but lets go over this a second. Time is money so time spent not jacking up the engine and pulling off the pan could easily be spent doing a unique oil feeding fabrication (which is what mods are all about, ie being unique). And after spending money on a supercharger the last thing on my mind is how much a motorcycle oil box is going to cost me. I am just interested in knowing if this is even possible because im curious about stuff like this. Thanks for the advice though.

[bballr4567]

Are you talking about putting a self contained self supplying oil unit on??? I think it will work if you have the right parts. Its all going to have to be electric and Im sure that there are electric oil pumps out there. Youll think of something.

[KhellendrosxS]

Are you talking about putting a self contained self supplying oil unit on??? I think it will work if you have the right parts. Its all going to have to be electric and Im sure that there are electric oil pumps out there. Youll think of something.

Exactly! I hadnt thought of another oil pump, I could probably use one from a motorcycle as well. Though, at that point it might be just as good to forget wiring up a second pump and just tap the pan...

[AaronGTR]

Is it possible, yes. Is it practical, no.

You'd have to install some sort of pump in the oil feed line to the SC. So you'd have the extra weight and cost of the reservoir, pump, lines, etc. You'd probably need a seperate relay and wiring to run the pump... and don't forget the reservoir would have to sit below the SC for the oil to drain back, and all this stuff is going to take up room in the engine bay.

Something else to think of, the oil needs to warm up to reach the right vicsousity to protect the bearings. You wouldn't get any of the heating/cooling effects from the engines normal oil supply so it would take a long time to heat the SC's oil which might lead to bearing failure. Basically unless you are using an SC like a rotrex that requires it's own special oil and reservoir, you are better off just dropping the pan and running line like normal. It does not take that long and it's not that hard!

[KhellendrosxS]

I figured Id get in over my head with something like that but how about hooking up an oil filter adapter plate like this for the feed line?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hayden-HD-TURBO-Oil-Feed-Filter-Cooler-Adapter-Kit-New_W0QQitemZ7984412391QQihZ019QQcategoryZ33742QQr dZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

In case you havent guessed Im trying to avoid dropping the pan cause I dont have a cherry picker at my disposal and Im a bit confused on how the whole 'engine tie bar' concept is supposed to work without sliding down towards the bumper...

[SpyhunteR]

dropping the pan isn't THAT difficult.

THe bar won't slide down since it is supporting weight of the motor.

[AaronGTR]

I figured Id get in over my head with something like that but how about hooking up an oil filter adapter plate like this for the feed line?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hayden-HD-TURBO-Oil-Feed-Filter-Cooler-Adapter-Kit-New_W0QQitemZ7984412391QQihZ019QQcategoryZ33742QQr dZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

In case you havent guessed Im trying to avoid dropping the pan cause I dont have a cherry picker at my disposal and Im a bit confused on how the whole 'engine tie bar' concept is supposed to work without sliding down towards the bumper...


An oil filter adapter won't help you one bit. It's under pressure. You have to have something where the oil can free flow back to the pan. It's pretty simple, you have to at least drill and tap the pan, even if you don't drop it. That's the best way to run the oil. If you're going to get in major performance mods like this it's going to take some effort on your part. Everyone thinks it's easy to just increase your hp by 50 or 100.... it's not. Do it right or don't do it.

[lastyear4gt]

Everyone thinks it's easy to just increase your hp by 50 or 100.... it's not. Do it right or don't do it.

X 2. Ive been working for going on 4 months on my set-up.

[XtremeGaGt00]

id say just go rent a cherry picker...lift the motor some so you can drop the pan and just drill and tap...i did it...wasnt too bad, for the most part sucked layin on the ground the most...thats my .02 cents

[KhellendrosxS]

Thanks for the replies, I have access to a lift so I think Ill just the tie bar method and just raise and lower the car so I can stand under it to take out the pan.

XtremeGaGt00, what tuner are you currently using with your RSM?

[AaronGTR]

He has a DHP pcm, it says in his signature. ;) I don't know if it's custom tuned or if he has the actual tuner, but it's not recommended to use the generic pcm's with boost. They are tuned for NA cars and have too much timing. IMO best tuner to get is the DHP powrtuner. Easier to learn how to use and they have a better support community.

[KhellendrosxS]

He has a DHP pcm, it says in his signature. ;) I don't know if it's custom tuned or if he has the actual tuner, but it's not recommended to use the generic pcm's with boost. They are tuned for NA cars and have too much timing. IMO best tuner to get is the DHP powrtuner. Easier to learn how to use and they have a better support community.

Doh, thats what I get for not looking closely. I was leaning towards DHP but it seems they are always out of stock, however I know where a used one is all thats left to do is scrap some money together.

[XtremeGaGt00]

ive got the supercharger off right now...no good...i was having the same problems everyone else has with theirs, BUT, mine got to the extreme and when the driveshaft keyway got all messed up, it thrwe te driveshaft into a vibrating spinning kinda thing, and yanked the mounting bolts out of the head...

[KhellendrosxS]

Ouch, sorry to hear it bunged the car up in the process. When I got mine from 01GAGT he had replaced the weak key pins and also put in a metal shielded bearing that was also crapping out so once I get it in I should be good!

[XtremeGaGt00]

well...for your sake i hope your good..im not having any problems with the bearing on the end of the driveshaft...i SHOULD change it but im not gonna right now...just need to invest in some heads so support the milzy stage 2 boost cam i got comin...

[O1GAGT]

If you think it would be easier you could always buy a spare oil pan on ebay or from a junk yard, drill and tap, install the fitting and have it ready to go for the install day.

[SpyhunteR]

IMO best tuner to get is the DHP powrtuner. Easier to learn how to use and they have a better support community.

Not verified for accuracy in statements.

[AaronGTR]

Not verified for accuracy in statements.

Whatever... :rolleyes: It's just been around longer and more people have been tuning GM v6's with DHP for longer because they supported us before HP even thought about it. If you have a 4cyl HP is your only choice. Good for you. V6's DHP is better.

[Sprucegagt]

Actually HPT started offering tuning software before DHP. But, DHP started offering "tuned" PCMs before anyone else. DHP is solely GM V6 based. While HPT's main group of customers is V8 based.

[AaronGTR]

Actually HPT started offering tuning software before DHP. But, DHP started offering "tuned" PCMs before anyone else. DHP is solely GM V6 based. While HPT's main group of customers is V8 based.


Yes, HPT had tuning software first, but not for GM v6's. That's what I meant. DHP was the first to offer us a tuning solution. HPT started out with v8's.

[SpyhunteR]

Whatever... :rolleyes: It's just been around longer and more people have been tuning GM v6's with DHP for longer because they supported us before HP even thought about it. If you have a 4cyl HP is your only choice. Good for you. V6's DHP is better.

You're making a poor argument out of this. It's better because i have it and I say so. you're bad at life lately.

[KhellendrosxS]

Rather than start up a new thread Ill bring mine back from the dead. I found my digi cam and took a few pics of the presents the UPS man brought for me today!

Gauges, A pillar and muffler (Flowmaster 80):

http://i3.tinypic.com/48gtl5d.jpg

http://i7.tinypic.com/2ztaemg.jpg

I have a quick question before I start mounting all this stuff in my car. Should my boost gauge have its needle sitting where it is now or should it be in the middle of the bar for "0"? Pic below:

http://i7.tinypic.com/2j4bzo3.jpg

Thanks guys!

[AaronGTR]

It looks fine. Anywhere around that white mark should be ok. That's atmospheric pressure at zero.

[KhellendrosxS]

So basically my atmospheric pressure is slightly less than 14.7 (at this altitude?)? Im sitting here looking at it and the tip of the needle is sitting right off the left edge of the '0' mark which i think indicates about 1-1.5 inHg. Very strange.

[AaronGTR]

Yeah, the pressure is lower the higher altitude you go and the gauge should be precisely calibrated for sea level pressure of 14.7 psi. It's not big difference.