Eaton Charger Guys HELP, what went wrong?

[lastyear4gt]

Well, I took the car to the track for the first time today. I was very dissapointed to say the least. Now keep in mind, I have never raced on the track before, so I was all new to this.

I dont understand what happened, I started off descent for the first pass, better for the second pass and it all went down hill from there. I did notice a bog out of the hole when I floored the pedal, I think Ill have to see my tuner again for that issue. Anyone else have this problem with the charger. Its like when I go WOT, it sucks for a second and then goes.

I dont have a scanner, so I will have to post the slips up when I get to my in-laws house.

but here are the times.

R/T 60' ET@ 594' 1/8ET 1/8MPH 1/4ET 1/4MPH

1. .8308 2.3141 9.3432 9.9622 72.69 15.4760 87.37

2. .8682 2.2725 9.2547 9.8907 70.76 15.4209 85.87

3. .5100 2.2860 9.2709 9.8880 72.91 15.3819 87.71 BEST

4. .8180 2.3060 9.4861 10.1160 71.44 15.7361 85.35

5. .2690 2.5010 9.8070 10.4511 69.86 16.0558 84.14

6. .5669 2.3482 9.6151 10.2622 69.53 15.8540 85.07

7. .7939 2.3226 9.6313 10.2870 68.62 15.9150 85.08

8. .2009 2.6172 10.0590 10.7043 69.73 16.3700 85.41

9. .7229 2.3711 9.7080 10.3612 68.89 15.9749 85.08

10. .2498 2.3351 9.4731 10.1103 70.61 15.6390 86.20


Having seen this, I ran on factory RS-A's and did not burn out, but drove around the water box. Towards the end I did however burn out on the last 2 runs and the times started to improve again, which leads me to believe I had a tun of **** on the tires causing me suggestions.

Any suggestions at to what I should be looking at? Check my cardomain sight on my sig for my mods list.

PLEASE SUGGESTIONS!

[Gizm0815]

are you shifting? if so stop just run the car in 3rd gear. time are definetly higher than they should be i pulled a 15.4 with just a tune. so you should at least see 14.9s either ur shifting not hooking up or need some more in depth tuning done.

[Mendoza]

If it's bogging down right when you get on it i would assume your running rich. Do you have a wideband o2 sensor?

[lastyear4gt]

No, I just have a stock O2 sensor. And I wasn't shifting, just put it in drive. I wouldn't do that to the transmission.

[xxbackhillxx]

Shifting manually doesnt hurt the transmission unless you don't know how to do it and redline it.

1) get a wideband 02 asap and get it tuned properly.

2) falken azenis rt 615 tires ... or something with better traction. our rsa's are crap.

3) i can't find it now, but theres a thread floating around with a lot of useful track tips.

I don't know what else to suggest besides that. If you had a scanner I could help you out a bit more.

[KhellendrosxS]

Im not an Eaton guy but I have an RSM charger and I can say that without doing my tuning myself I would be spending as much if not more than the price of a tuner.

I ordered my DHP tuner about a month ago and got free A/D inputs due to a shipping delay (I ordered without cause I heard there was a shortage and it paid off for me). Anyway, you should consider tuning for yourself especially with that kind of modification. You might also consider throwing on a 2 bar MAP sensor if you can afford it.

I know its always hard to talk the wife/fiance into spending money but you have to pay to play (which I am still learning myself).

[AaronGTR]

Those times are way high. I ran 14.8's on stock wheels and RS-A's on my old setup with nothing but the blower, SLP cat-back, and K&N filter. I'd definitely say somethings wrong... but it's really hard to say what with no scans and nothing else to go by. If you have a tuner then you should be data logging during your runs. Suddenly bogging off the line and then going sounds more like you are lean right there to me, like you need to increase the acceleration enrichment (AE) to cope with the sudden throttle change. Again, impossible to tell without scan data.

[lastyear4gt]

Aaron, do you have any bog off the line at all? Just wondering if this is a character of the magnacharger.

[SpyhunteR]

it's a character of your tune...

Personally suppose the tune you got is pretty good. Did he mess with any of the tranny settings though?

Did you run with ETS on or off?

Whenever I run with the ETS doing it's normal thing it will kill ALL off the line power. Keep it off.

[Mike Jung]

...Did you run with ETS on or off?

Whenever I run with the ETS doing it's normal thing it will kill ALL off the line power. Keep it off.
x2

[lvemy3100]

TQ management FTL!

[AleroB888]

PLEASE SUGGESTIONS!


Im not an expert on tuning, but I do get down to the track often. Sounds like the computer yanked most of the timing out, but that could be for many reasons. I have tried some tunes that seemed great on the street, but when I got to the track, the thing fell flat on it's face.

How hot was the ECT/ IAT (I know you didn't scan it, but you should have a general idea) Was the ambient temperature high? Did you do a complete cool down between runs? I recommend putting the IAT sensor in the IM plenum, not the SC outlet. Are you pulling excessive vacuum after the air filter or MAF sensor?

How does your timing curve differ from stock? False knock due to headers or even the SC is a possibility. I even get knock retard on my stock '03 Alero that shows a similar pattern as the boosted '99.

If it's any consolation, my last trip to the track on June 3 was a disaster.... the computer did, in fact, pull the timing out from under me (on every run! ). I think I have the problems solved, but don't want to post anything till I'm sure, as some of my mods are kind of risky. :)

[lastyear4gt]

it's a character of your tune...

Personally suppose the tune you got is pretty good. Did he mess with any of the tranny settings though?

Did you run with ETS on or off?

Whenever I run with the ETS doing it's normal thing it will kill ALL off the line power. Keep it off.

He changed the shift points of the trans a bit and upped the line pressure for harder shifts. The first 2 runs I ran with ETS on by accident because when I was waiting in the stagging lines, I shut the car off so not to get too hot and it reset itself when I turned it back on. I ran it with the ETS off for the remainder of the runs though.

BTW, what exactly do you mean by character of the tune?

[lastyear4gt]

Im not an expert on tuning, but I do get down to the track often. Sounds like the computer yanked most of the timing out, but that could be for many reasons. I have tried some tunes that seemed great on the street, but when I got to the track, the thing fell flat on it's face.

How hot was the ECT/ IAT (I know you didn't scan it, but you should have a general idea) Was the ambient temperature high? Did you do a complete cool down between runs? I recommend putting the IAT sensor in the IM plenum, not the SC outlet. Are you pulling excessive vacuum after the air filter or MAF sensor?

How does your timing curve differ from stock? False knock due to headers or even the SC is a possibility. I even get knock retard on my stock '03 Alero that shows a similar pattern as the boosted '99.

If it's any consolation, my last trip to the track on June 3 was a disaster.... the computer did, in fact, pull the timing out from under me (on every run! ). I think I have the problems solved, but don't want to post anything till I'm sure, as some of my mods are kind of risky. :)

It's funny you should mention about your tune on the street as apposed to the track. I had a weak tune done the first time, and after I put the alchy kit in and went back, he added some more timing. Felt excellent, but as you said fell flat on the track.

I let it cool down for a while in between runs for the most part, but I did hot lap a couple times.

The temp was hovering a notch below 90. The temp was good, only 23 with a light breeze. The IAT is in the supercharger inlet, but it makes sense about the positioning of it because I am running alcohol, I should run it after the spray.

Only vaccuum after the Air filter is the brake booster, bypass valve, vaccum block and the oil catch can (PCV) system.

When I had it retuned, we pushed it to the point of knock and than backed it off from there. It was still showing slight knock, but we attributed that to the transmission around the top of the RPM range. The timing is still retarded from stock. I think 21 degrees or so of advance is stock right?

The only thing I am wondering about the bog is weather it may be related to the LS1 MAF sensor at all? It almost feels like a lazy MAF or TPS.

It is really a pain in the ass that I can't scan the runs for you to see, and I do understand that you really need to see the scans to tell better. I am definately going to get my own tuner, but not till next year.

The next step it trying to persuade my tuner to come to the track with me to truly "Test and Tune"

[AaronGTR]

Aaron, do you have any bog off the line at all? Just wondering if this is a character of the magnacharger.

No, not at all. Quite the opposite in fact. Roots blowers usually have much more low end torque and response than other forms of boost.

[SpyhunteR]

did you guys tune on a dyno or on the street?

[lastyear4gt]

We only tuned on the street. But we had quite a few problems with the tuning.

On the original tune, there was a problem with detonation due to what we suspected to be high combustion chamber temperatures. I asked him that because the engine was stock, if he wanted me to put the stock 2.8" pulley back on (instead of the 2.4" I installed) and tune it that way. He figured it would be all right, but as a result he had to detune the engine originally in the way of retarding the timing. Thats when he suggested the alcohol injection kit.

After I installed the alchy with the boost switch set to 3psi, when it hit boost weather at WOT or not, it was bogging bad! I figured it to be flooding out the spark. I contacted him, and he advised me to reset the gap to .035". I did so and it had no effect, so he told me to reset the boost switch to 5psi, and that worked fine, but that means it only sprays to 2-3psi of the powerband which is pretty much useless.

When I took it back for the tuning the second time, we backed the switch back down to 3psi, and added some timing to compensate. Like I said, it felt really good at the end of the tune, but it was a dog on the track. He did tell me before I left to try it out, and it may still need a smaller jet for the alchy.

Regardless, the bog out of the hole has been there right from the get go!

I was talking with a guy at work that has an intake on his 3.4L, and he says he has the same hesitation out of the hole on WOT, but when he put the stock one back in, it was gone.

[xonelith]

I ran with the RSA's when I got my 13.9, so tire choice wouldn't be the issue. Obviously, better tires, better times, but not for the times you were running.

I'm in agreement with most here. It's prolly Torque Management. Ask your tuner to reduce the TM. It's up to you whether or not you want it removed entirely. I removed mine entirely and haven't had a problem..... YET. I suspect that's the first thing that will go. I just hit 112k km's today:)

Oh, for the record, I went to the track today and couldn't break 14.3, so I think the humidity may have played a factor.

Lets get to the track together sometime, and I'll scan the car for you. Unfortunately, everything is speculation without a scan.

[lastyear4gt]

That sounds like a plan to me, I wanted to run with you anyways, and we live close as well. I'm going to get ahold of my tuner tomorrow, and see if he can make some adjustments to get rid of the bogging and torque management. Than we can set a date and go to the track and see how it runs, maybe get some data logging and work from there. Are you using DHP or HP?

It's funny that you couldn't run good either. My brothers cobalt SS could't break 15.2 yesterday and thats a high-mid 14 second car. Similarily, a stage 2 cobalt that should be high 13's couldn't hit better than 14.5. I also talked to a guy with a stage 3 mopar SRT4. He was saying it has previously ran a 13.2, but he couldn't run better than a 13.8 there yesterday.

I seems that everybody this weekend ran about 0.5-0.7 seconds slower at St. Thomas than they should have.

When do you want to go?

[drumking1721]

yikes...my car has a better time than those and i dont have much on it....

[gectek]

the KR u are seeing at the top end is the stock TM like everyone is saying. apartenly he didnt do much but firm up the shifts, with that SC ull want to run more aggressive TM so u can have more benefits of the added power. and my car ran stock faster than those times at one point. def not good at all. i wouldnt just rust it to someone else. i would go with getting and keeping ur own tuner, that way you can change all that stuff at the track

[lastyear4gt]

As stupid as this may seem, what exactly is torque management. I thought the only TM was the traction control. Can someone explain?

[xonelith]

Basically, TM reduces power.... somehow, when the comp detects too much.

Reducing timing sometimes. Sometimes generating KR (which in turn reduces timing). This is done in order to protect the parts under warranty. I guess they tested the parts and assumed that a bit over stock ratings are all the parts can handle (which is probably not far from the truth).

When I got all the mods done to my car, I didn't remove TM and I couldn't break 14.9. 14.9 was my best without the engine work!!!

If I had a liscense for a 2004, I would remove it for ya for free:)

[Vampyrate]

im sorry, but i never saw the point of hooking up a FWD car when at the track... someone enlighten me please?

[Sprucegagt]

As stupid as this may seem, what exactly is torque management. I thought the only TM was the traction control. Can someone explain?

Traction control is only part of TM. But basically TM is the reduction of timing & fuel to the engine during high stress situations. Also, if it's bad enough it will disable fuel injectors. Ever wonder why your car will miss when traction control is on and you spin? That's why.

Now your probably wondering how do I turn it off? Well it's not as simple as turning a switch off. TM is used for upshifts, downshifts, turbine torque, speed limiters, rev limiters, fuel cutoff points and more. Modifying these settings are possible with tuning software(DHP/HPT), but if you don't want to learn how to tune then you really need to find a better tuner. Your current shop should of already told you about TM and the need to reduce it for certain settings.

[lastyear4gt]

Traction control is only part of TM. But basically TM is the reduction of timing & fuel to the engine during high stress situations. Also, if it's bad enough it will disable fuel injectors. Ever wonder why your car will miss when traction control is on and you spin? That's why.

Now your probably wondering how do I turn it off? Well it's not as simple as turning a switch off. TM is used for upshifts, downshifts, turbine torque, speed limiters, rev limiters, fuel cutoff points and more. Modifying these settings are possible with tuning software(DHP/HPT), but if you don't want to learn how to tune then you really need to find a better tuner. Your current shop should of already told you about TM and the need to reduce it for certain settings.

AGAIN, I HAVE SAID TIME AND TIME AGAIN. PLEASE DONT THINK IM LAZY, BECAUSE I DO WANT TO AND WILL GET MY OWN TUNER NEXT YEAR. ITS JUST NOT IN THE FINANCES WITH THE WEDDING COMMING UP! Believe me, If I could afford it and a laptop, I would have ordered them yesterday!

Would the bog out of the hole have anything to do with TM?

[O1GAGT]

I think I would try to reduce timing (possibly use a GTP spark table).

Also make sure that you do not have any exhaust leaks, rattles or anything that would send a false reading to the Knock Sensor.

[Sprucegagt]

AGAIN, I HAVE SAID TIME AND TIME AGAIN. PLEASE DONT THINK IM LAZY, BECAUSE I DO WANT TO AND WILL GET MY OWN TUNER NEXT YEAR. ITS JUST NOT IN THE FINANCES WITH THE WEDDING COMMING UP! Believe me, If I could afford it and a laptop, I would have ordered them yesterday!

Would the bog out of the hole have anything to do with TM?

Did I call you lazy? No, so quit trying to put words in my mouth. I answered your question and now you want to bitch at me for it? That's really showing graditude. :nono:

[lastyear4gt]

Dude, your completely taking this out of context. I am just stating, seeing as everybody keeps telling me to get the tuner, I will but can't until next year. It's been brought up a few times, not just you. I'm sorry if it looked like I was "bitching" at you.

[slowbird]

I would agree with Xon...your launch and traction was NOT a factor at all.

Well...at least for the first two runs. 2.2 60ft is respectable.

Your times are consistant with a Stock GAGT without boost.

Definitley listen to the boys on here and what they suggest....you should be running MUCH better times.

[Sprucegagt]

You quoted me then posted your rant in bold and capitalized text. What was I supposed to think?

As for your car bogging, TM could be part of the problem. But as others have said there is no way to know for sure without a datalog of the run. Sorry.

[Mendoza]

There is no way your going to tune the car properly without a wideband o2 sensor and some type of datalogger. Hold the wedding off a month,. haha

[AaronGTR]

im sorry, but i never saw the point of hooking up a FWD car when at the track... someone enlighten me please?


That's an easy question... the look on the face of the guy in the mustang GT when he gets his doors blown off by a fwd grand am is your answer.

[xonelith]

That's an easy question... the look on the face of the guy in the mustang GT when he gets his doors blown off by a fwd grand am is your answer.

LOL... exactly.

[xxbackhillxx]

That's an easy question... the look on the face of the guy in the mustang GT when he gets his doors blown off by a fwd grand am is your answer.

LOVE seeing that face ... who's got the video of me beating one at the track?

[slowbird]

I have a vid of me beating a 5.0 too.

Good times.

[lastyear4gt]

Well, Im not verry happy at this point. I called my tuner on the monday after the track and a couple more times since then, left numerous messages, and not a response.

Apparently when he said a "one time fee" and "no fee for future tuning modications" it was bull.

I guess Im done now until I get my own tuner/laptop next spring. This SUCKS!:(

The sick part is I could have nearly bought the tuner for what I payed him, but the laptop still would have been and issue.:(:(

[cardude007617]

cant u just stop in to his place and say your car is fuked up?

[lastyear4gt]

I tried that today, and no one was even there. I'm wondering if maybe he is on vacation, but for 3 weeks?

[cardude007617]

well ya, i guess that would be too easy ya know

[SpyhunteR]

That's an easy question... the look on the face of the guy in the mustang GT when he gets his doors blown off by a fwd grand am is your answer.

Been there done that, also against a 'vette on the highway. Priceless in every which way imaginable.

What's the point of hooking up a fwd car for track? because you can, believe it or not with the right know how make them hook and book too. There's a few members here who have proven as such, and a whole sport compact industry full of proof.