real red line

[jackal2000]

i searched and didnt find what i was looking for. im wondering what the real WOT red line is on our transmissions. has anyone successfully raised it? if so, by how much? im thinking about raising mine up to 6,000 with fuel cutoff at 6,250? my tranny is stock with 107k miles on it and i certainly dont want it to asplode.

[jackal2000]

if it matters im talking the tranny for the 3400....4T45E?

[atc3434]

My DHP tune is setup just the way you describe, shifts at 6000rpm, fuel cut at 6200rpm. I know xolinth has been spinning up beyond 6500rpm. I find much over 5800rpm and I'm floating my 155k mile old valves a bit. Back in the day though, I would ride first and second right to 6190rpm at the drag strip, I could just barely trap in second gear with my SE's 3.08 final drive.

[AaronGTR]

Actually, the stock fuel cutoff in the pcm is 6000 rpm so you are already there. I have mine set at 6300. I think the stock shift point for the trans is 5700 though. The factory manual says the rpm limit for the 4T45E transmission is 6500 rpm. A modified one might be able to handle more than that. It might depend on the design of the internal hydraulics (valve body etc.), I'm not sure. I wouldn't go over 6500 on a stock trans for sure though. I also wouldn't raise the engine rev limit over 6k unless you change the valve springs first. The stocker are weak and might float.

[jackal2000]

Actually, the stock fuel cutoff in the pcm is 6000 rpm so you are already there. I have mine set at 6300. I think the stock shift point for the trans is 5700 though. The factory manual says the rpm limit for the 4T45E transmission is 6500 rpm. A modified one might be able to handle more than that. It might depend on the design of the internal hydraulics (valve body etc.), I'm not sure. I wouldn't go over 6500 on a stock trans for sure though. I also wouldn't raise the engine rev limit over 6k unless you change the valve springs first. The stocker are weak and might float.

yea im not worried about the motor really since its pretty much built. i dont feel like listing out all of my mods but i have the mms stage 2 package plus lots more. i have over 13k miles on the motor now so its time to crank it up a notch since everything is nice and worn in. im happy hear that 6500 is the stopping point. i think i might go with 6100 shift and 6300 fuel cut off. thanks fellas!

[atc3434]

mms stage 2 package plus lots more...

Is that the heads and cam? I would think that motor would really like to sing, maybe like 6400rpm shift points. Milzy's website lists the Specs:
.556/.560 valve lift (w/ 1.6 rockers)
222/226 duration at .050
106 intake center
110 LSA

I would think that cam, along with good heads and other supporting mods, would really sing on the topside. TimK's (xolinth) dyno sheet on Milzy's website shows the stage two package pulling pretty flat to 6700rpm.

[jackal2000]

Is that the heads and cam? I would think that motor would really like to sing, maybe like 6400rpm shift points. Milzy's website lists the Specs:
.556/.560 valve lift (w/ 1.6 rockers)
222/226 duration at .050
106 intake center
110 LSA

I would think that cam, along with good heads and other supporting mods, would really sing on the topside. TimK's (xolinth) dyno sheet on Milzy's website shows the stage two package pulling pretty flat to 6700rpm.

yep, heads and cam. i didnt realize tim was revving it so high. i guess thats one of the many reasons he broke 13's and my best run is 14.9, i'll be going to the track on nov 4th so we shall see. how many tenths do you think i will shave by making the change? .2 or .3 sounds reasonable to me?

[atc3434]

yep, heads and cam. i didnt realize tim was revving it so high. i guess thats one of the many reasons he broke 13's and my best run is 14.9, i'll be going to the track on nov 4th so we shall see. how many tenths do you think i will shave by making the change? .2 or .3 sounds reasonable to me?

14.9? Guys have done that on just headers, exhaust, and a tune. Toss in a 62mm tb and intake and some have gone 14.7. I would hope with a good tune shifting at 6400rpm you'd be able to put down a LOW 14 with traction. What are your trap speeds like right now?

[silvergtjrad]

14.9? Guys have done that on just headers, exhaust, and a tune. Toss in a 62mm tb and intake and some have gone 14.7. I envy those guys. Im going to the track this sunday and will hopefully be breaking into the 14s

[jackal2000]

here's my time slips from march.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7479/timeslip023hb5.jpg

i have a TCE 62mm TB sitting in my garage. i need to order and install bigger injectors too. both of those will be done at once, hopefully by the end of the month.

since i am bored now i will list all of my mods:
CAI
stock TB match ported to ported UIM
ported LIM
mms stage 2 heads and cam
hyper eutectic pistons
mms pushrods
FFP under drive crank pulley
TOG headers
high flow cat
2.5" mandrel bent exhaust
B&M tranny cooler
MSD 8.5mm wires
autolite plugs gapped at .050" as per milzy guidance
DHP PowrTuner

i think thats it as far as performance goes. this is the alero, not the gagt my wife drives. :p

[coupe]

Dang, you have all that and you are only runing 14.9's?
I run 14.9's on just headers, full exhuast and a CAI.

Of course alot of your mods arent really power adders.

[atc3434]

I think you need to get your TB and injectors in and get tuning, there is a lot left on the table, I've trapped 2.5mph less than your best slip with just headers and exhaust and an off the shelf DHP tune. Your 60' time is hurting on some of those runs. I'm baffled by the middle slip, you must have lifted before the strip, you were way way faster, by about .4 at teh 1000' mark, and I bet you would have dropped a 14.6 or better, but you must have lifted. You need to keep launching like that, 1.8 is really amazing, I'm almost wondering if there was a timing error.

Has anybody else 60' below a 2.0 in one of these cars?

[jackal2000]

all those runs were on street tires and i have heard that maryland international is probably the best prepped track in the country so i doubt it was a timing error. at the time i swear i didnt let off but i guess i did. the finish line wasnt clearly marked so who knows. i had the powrtuner going and IIRC i had about 2* of KR on the top end so that might have played a role.


Of course alot of your mods arent really power adders.

what else is there to add power besides boost? pretty sure i have done it all besides raise compression.

[atc3434]

all those runs were on street tires and i have heard that maryland international is probably the best prepped track in the country so i doubt it was a timing error. at the time i swear i didnt let off but i guess i did. the finish line wasnt clearly marked so who knows. i had the powrtuner going and IIRC i had about 2* of KR on the top end so that might have played a role.




what else is there to add power besides boost? pretty sure i have done it all besides raise compression.


Plug that 9.1 @ 75mph 1/8th mile into a 1/8th mile to 1/4 mile calculator - and you get about a 14.27, you must have lifted, way early, or there was a timing error somewhere. I still can't see a FWD GA on street tires pulling a 1.8 60' even on the best of tracks, but I guess anything is possible.

[xonelith]

Well, my 13.9 was on street tires, shifting at about 6800 rpm, stock tranny and stock TB. I think you should be able to pull a bit more from shifting higher. I don't recommend going straight up to 6800 as each car is different, but gradually raise your shift points at the track. Looks like our mods are similar but my bottom end is stock.

I think my time slip is on my website. Also, do you have all TM removed? In order for me to get that time, all TM was removed. Also, do you have a wideband?

Oh, my compression is raised slightly due to the milling on the heads and I was getting about 2* of KR as well... wish I still had my scan... i'll look for it

[jackal2000]

Plug that 9.1 @ 75mph 1/8th mile into a 1/8th mile to 1/4 mile calculator - and you get about a 14.27, you must have lifted, way early, or there was a timing error somewhere. I still can't see a FWD GA on street tires pulling a 1.8 60' even on the best of tracks, but I guess anything is possible.

i would have been happy as **** if i hit 14.2. my tires didnt spin at the line all day and i dynoed in november 06 with a crappy tune and 2.25" exhaust and made 183whp. not only are they street tires, but they are the same ones that were on the car when i bought it in 2003 lol maybe because its an alero and not a GA? :leg

once i get the 36lb injectors in i can add a couple degrees of timing which should help a bit as well.

[jackal2000]

Well, my 13.9 was on street tires, shifting at about 6800 rpm, stock tranny and stock TB. I think you should be able to pull a bit more from shifting higher. I don't recommend going straight up to 6800 as each car is different, but gradually raise your shift points at the track. Looks like our mods are similar but my bottom end is stock.

I think my time slip is on my website. Also, do you have all TM removed? In order for me to get that time, all TM was removed. Also, do you have a wideband?

Oh, my compression is raised slightly due to the milling on the heads and I was getting about 2* of KR as well... wish I still had my scan... i'll look for it

last night i changed the shift points at WOT to 6100. so far the car doesnt really want to shift there but i guess its still learning. i havent really messed with TM much. when sprucegagt was helping me with my tune last year we might have made minor changes but i know its not totally removed. i dont have a wideband yet either. my heads are shaved a little bit...the guys who built my motor guesstimated the CR to be around 9.7.

i just relooked at my scan from the middle run and i was WOT for a little over 16 seconds. hows that for a mystery? lol

[atc3434]

last night i changed the shift points at WOT to 6100. so far the car doesnt really want to shift there but i guess its still learning. i havent really messed with TM much. when sprucegagt was helping me with my tune last year we might have made minor changes but i know its not totally removed. i dont have a wideband yet either. my heads are shaved a little bit...the guys who built my motor guesstimated the CR to be around 9.7.

i just relooked at my scan from the middle run and i was WOT for a little over 16 seconds. hows that for a mystery? lol


That is crazy. I know you lifted though, you were .5 faster than any other run at the 1000' mark, there is no way you gave up .5 on the fast side of the track unless you pulled the throttle out way early. Those last 400' go by really fast, I'm still confused by that slip, it makes me wonder about it.

What the final drive ratio in the Alero? I'm surprised it sticks the launch that well, the bottom end must be softend some by the cam. My SE never spins the tires at the drag-strip either, but thats the 3.08 final drive helping me stick the launch. It hurts my 1/8th mile bad, the best I could ever do was a 10.0 @ 70mph, but my ETs would be 15.3 @ 90mph.

Tim - I never knew your times were through a stock TB, have you since upgraded? I would think 345cfm would be holding you back with the stocker, the intake plenum isn't THAT big.

Wow, I've missed GA performance related discussions! I wanna go out and build a 3400 now.

[jackal2000]

the alero FDR is the same as the SE. here is the scan for the second run. see for yourself that i didnt let off early. delete all the other stuff and look at time next to TP%. its crazy and there is no explanation for it.

[atc3434]

Injectors don't look maxed out to me. F/A looks ok, as much as you can tell anyways with a narrowband. Spark table looks weak. Chase down the KR, then start dailing up the spark. And shift higher. Like I said, that data in Tim's dyno pull shows that cam is still making power at 6700rpm, so you're leaving a lot on the table.

The timing thing really doesn't make sense, maybe it really did just fall on its face that bad. I still think its awful weird.

[jackal2000]

alright well here's the scan from my third slip. im fairly certain that the KR is related to the increase in timing since i added fuel and KR went down. i was really afraid of the injectors going static so i didnt add any more fuel. in hind sight i probably could have added a little more. i read that its best to stay under 85% duty cycle and this run was at 83%.

[atc3434]

Thats right, the 99's at 17lbs/hr, same as mine. They probably are pretty close. Its funny, I used to pulse IPW's as high as yours, but without any of the extensive breathing work. I would think you can jump up to 36lbs/hrs, do some tuning, and get that car the fuel it needs. I'm surprised its showing rich at all, you probably are close to static. Once you get the fuel, then you can get the timing up, you'll never get much advance with a lean burn.

[jackal2000]

Thats right, the 99's at 17lbs/hr, same as mine. They probably are pretty close. Its funny, I used to pulse IPW's as high as yours, but without any of the extensive breathing work. I would think you can jump up to 36lbs/hrs, do some tuning, and get that car the fuel it needs. I'm surprised its showing rich at all, you probably are close to static. Once you get the fuel, then you can get the timing up, you'll never get much advance with a lean burn.

i ordered the 36lb upgrade kit from milzy earlier today ;)

the stock injectors are 22.5lbs, its a 2000. the 99 gagt i have listed is actually my soon to be ex-wife's car.

[atc3434]

i ordered the 36lb upgrade kit from milzy earlier today ;)

the stock injectors are 22.5lbs, its a 2000. the 99 gagt i have listed is actually my soon to be ex-wife's car.

That makes sense, I was wondering how you were getting away with the same IPW's I used to see when I had my scan gauge. I think tuning and higher rpms will serve you well.

[xonelith]

I recently upgraded my TB to a 65mm (from Milzy) and am currently testing it out. Note the UIM is ported to match. I went to the track with these new mods (crap ass tune) and I beat a dump truck.......... times were not impressive however. I'm going to hit up the track sometime this month, so I hope things improve.

As for the TM, I remember when I first got the engine mods (without my TOGS) I went to the track with the TM on.... I was really upset with my times as I think my best was 14.7 that day (I ran a 14.9 with CAI & catback).

I removed the TM, and BANG.. .14.2. I know that temps & track conditions may of also played a part in the difference, but doubtful that it would of affected the times by that much.

Without looking at your scan, I would assume TM has something to do with your KR and definitely has something to do with your times. I had 90000 Km's on my tranny and removed all TM. I'm now at 205 and still don't have TM on. Note this is my daily driver. I'm not saying you won't have problems, but .....

[atc3434]

TM is the giant suck of all GM's. You ought to ride in a Grand Prix GXP, there is so much TM you can feel it modulating the power. Guys are finding TM is even holding the new Zo6 back in the 1/4 mile. I'd love to feel my GA w/ 0 TM, dhp defintely did not remove enough.

Be interesting to see if you pick up time with the 65mm TB.

[jackal2000]

ok, i'll look into reducing TM. im not really comfortable with totally removing it at this point. my car is a daily driver also.

[atc3434]

ok, i'll look into reducing TM. im not really comfortable with totally removing it at this point. my car is a daily driver also.

You could put a block of wood under the accelerator too. You're the one respondsible for how much of a beating your car takes. If you need a computer to manage that for you, well, I'm dissapointed. If I spent $3500 bucks on mods, I want to know what it could do, not what it can do with the computer holding it back.

[Sprucegagt]

ok, i'll look into reducing TM. im not really comfortable with totally removing it at this point. my car is a daily driver also.

If it makes you feel any better Jon, I've had all TM (except differential score protection) removed from my car for years.

[jackal2000]

You could put a block of wood under the accelerator too. You're the one respondsible for how much of a beating your car takes. If you need a computer to manage that for you, well, I'm dissapointed. If I spent $3500 bucks on mods, I want to know what it could do, not what it can do with the computer holding it back.

ok point taken. i'll give it a shot this evening and see whats up. like i said in my first post i was worried doing these kinds of things will make the tranny asplode, but after hearing from you guys i dont think it will. thanks for all of the help!

[jackal2000]

so to "remove" TM i am changing the torque reduction upshift tables to all 0's? and in the max_engine_torque_for_upshift table i can change any number lower than 200 to 200? seems there should be more, what am i missing?

[Sprucegagt]

I maxed out the max_Turbine_Torque tables and the Brake_Torque_Limit table. Go under the fuel section and remove any injector disabling. Finally go under the spark section and disable all the torque abuse enabling tables and zero out the Torque_Abuse_Spark_Retard table.

[jackal2000]

andy, here's a list of my changes, want to make sure my bases are covered:

torque dif score retard is set at 4 (IIRC me and you decided on that last year at your house)
torque abuse speed enable is set at 0
torque abuse throttle enable is set at 0
torque abuse rpm enable is set at 6500
torque abuse time enable is set at 0
torque abuse spark retard all cells set at 0
torque abuse dif score mph enable i did not change
max turbine torque tcc locked i changed all cells to 249 (no way i am making that much torque)
brake torque limit all cells set at 1024

if i didnt list it i didnt change it. i disabled injector disabling a long time ago.

[Sprucegagt]

It looks good to me.

[jackal2000]

awesome, i'll flash it when i get home. i need to do a scan of the higher rpm range too (5700-6100) to make sure everything is kosher.

[atc3434]

Pull that thing to 6400rpm, at least. I just ran mine up to 6200rpm a bunch of times last night after thinking about this thread, pulls pretty solid right to the limiter, I wasn't sure if I'd encounter some valve float, but I did not. I think you'll find it'll run nice up there, everything your mods have done to this point support that kind of use without any side effects, and the cam is really gonna make power best over 4500rpm.

Of course, like you said, do scans, make sure you've still got fuel there. You're previous scans look like you'll have enough to get by, but you can ball-park it with 02's to see if its at least safe.

[jackal2000]

well, after driving it for a couple days everything is pretty much settled in and i must say the car pulls a good bit harder. i didn't have torque steer this bad before. pulls left like a mother. i haven't had a chance to scan it though so stay tuned for that maybe tomorrow night.

[atc3434]

well, after driving it for a couple days everything is pretty much settled in and i must say the car pulls a good bit harder. i didn't have torque steer this bad before. pulls left like a mother. i haven't had a chance to scan it though so stay tuned for that maybe tomorrow night.

Looking forward to the scans. Good to hear its pulling well. Did you try shifting at higher revs?

[jackal2000]

Looking forward to the scans. Good to hear its pulling well. Did you try shifting at higher revs?

yea its shifting at 6200.

[jackal2000]

here's a small scan from tonight.

i didnt have much room to go WOT. the car gets to about 6k and sits there for a second or so, not sure why it wont just shift.

im not happy its locking in at 3.91 LTFT.

[silvergtjrad]

here's a small scan from tonight.

i didnt have much room to go WOT. the car gets to about 6k and sits there for a second or so, not sure why it wont just shift.

im not happy its locking in at 3.91 LTFT.

Have you messed with the line pressure at all? That would keep it from shifting correctly.

[jackal2000]

line pressure is raised a little bit. it shifted fine before i messed with it. i went to the track today, not happy at all. my car refuses to go over 92mph. the first run i spun like a bitch all the way through 1st, it shifted, hooked up and down shifted back to 1st, then went on. ran a 15.4 :( before my next run i added some fuel via the MAF table (101%) and increased the "max_engine_torque_for_upshift" by 10% because i thought that might be contributing to my 5*+ of KR. my LTFT's locked in at 0 for the second run, but i had more KR, 6*+ and ran a 15.06. its really frustrating that i cant make any headway. i really hope my car is responsive to the bigger throttle body and injectors that will be going in this winter.

[mizzil]

OI have a 2000 grand am gt..its is basically stock i have an SLP catback and a K&N intake.i was thinkin about getting a catless down pipe and having my buddy tune it..how hight do you think i can st the rev limiter??

[coupe]

OI have a 2000 grand am gt..its is basically stock i have an SLP catback and a K&N intake.i was thinkin about getting a catless down pipe and having my buddy tune it..how hight do you think i can st the rev limiter??

Catless down pipe? Since when was the cat a part of the down pipe?

Since when did K&N make an intake for us?

[Ajaxus]

don't you just love newbs?

[silvergtjrad]

don't you just love newbs?

You can blame me. He sent me a message on myspace after watching one of my exhaust vids. I told him to join up on here. oops

[coupe]

You can blame me. He sent me a message on myspace after watching one of my exhaust vids. I told him to join up on here. oops

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d104/Rand81/talk%20forum%20goofs/43511590wl0.jpg

[silvergtjrad]

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d104/Rand81/talk%20forum%20goofs/43511590wl0.jpg

;crap

[Sprucegagt]

OI have a 2000 grand am gt..its is basically stock i have an SLP catback and a K&N intake.i was thinkin about getting a catless down pipe and having my buddy tune it..how hight do you think i can st the rev limiter??

As high as you want with tuning software. lol But really, with your mods the stock settings are fine. Ask that question again after you get a performance cam.

[AaronGTR]

OI have a 2000 grand am gt..its is basically stock i have an SLP catback and a K&N intake.i was thinkin about getting a catless down pipe and having my buddy tune it..how hight do you think i can st the rev limiter??


Since you are driving a very lightly modified street car and not a race car... get a downpipe and a high flow cat instead. You'll never notice the tiny tiny power difference and it will sound and smell a whole lot better.

For the rev limiter, you could raise it a couple hundred rpm, but there's not much point with those mods and it's not a good idea with stock valve springs.