emissions fail!!

[xonelith]

Well, I failed emissions:(

Just wondering, based on everyone's knowledge here, is the issue look to be my cat? It's about a year and a half old, maybe 2 years, but I do bottom out alot (daily driver). I'm guessing it is.

I made a post here that has my results.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15639

Any tips or suggestions to the tune?

Thanks everyone for your help!!

-xon

[Sprucegagt]

A high HC number is from oil burning. When was the last time you changed the PCV?

[xonelith]

Oil.... thought it was fuel issues....

Guess I'll hafta start looking at that now. I don't think I've ever changed the PCV valve (220,000km's). Probably a good place to start.

What about spark plugs and air filter? I haven't touched those since the summer.......

Thanks,
-xon

[Sprucegagt]

CO is generally fuel related while HC is always oil burning. Changing the PCV and making sure the air filter is clean should help. A little seafoam would help as well. The plugs won't change anything unless you have a misfire and they are the cause of it.

[SpyhunteR]

Well, I failed emissions:(

Just wondering, based on everyone's knowledge here, is the issue look to be my cat? It's about a year and a half old, maybe 2 years, but I do bottom out alot (daily driver). I'm guessing it is.

I made a post here that has my results, as well as a scan at idle, but not much in the way of assistance so far.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15639

Any tips or suggestions to the tune?

Thanks everyone for your help!!

-xon

LIFE FAIL!

[xonelith]

LIFE FAIL!

LOL... guess so.... :(

[Blackbombshell9]

HC is unburnt fuel excaping through the tailpipe.

[3x3]

Put a fresh set of plugs in along with spark plugs if you haven't in awhile. Throw some seafoam in the gas tank along with some high octane. If you haven't cleaned your cone filter in awhile, right now maybe the time. I personally had this problem and by doing what I mentioned above my HC's dropped by 60 at idle. Good luck! High HC's is unburnt fuel in the exhaust.

I just read the link you have and the readings you have are really high. The purpose of the cat is to burn excess fuel so I would check the cat for failure.

[Sprucegagt]

Whoops. HC is unburnt fuel, my mistake. I would of sworn that it was oil.

Well that also makes sense why your having trouble with a large overlap cam. Have you done any VE tuning? I know, from experience, that the MMS stage 2 cam requires a rather large reduction in the VE table that tapers from idle up to about 1200-1500 rpm.

[Vegeta]

Have you passed emissions before with your engine setup?

[Blackbombshell9]

Have you passed emissions before with your engine setup?

I also want to know this.

I just took my engine in for emissions this october and I got 2 more years. But I want to get it tested after the swap just to see how I do.

[xonelith]

I haven't tested it with this engine setup. What I did, since the 'ticket' is good for 1 yr, 6 months before I needed to renew my plates, and 1 month before the engine setup, I got an e-test. This was with HF cat and exhaust. Passed easily.

I knew I was going to have issues with emissions, particularly over the last year, due to other obligations, I have totally neglected the car. No track, no tuning, just oil changes and the odd time i'd switch out plugs. I've been noticing my fuel mileage gradually goin to the crapper, but did nothing about it, cuz.....

I'll go back to my original plan and replace the cat. I assumed this was the issue in the first place.

I have done VE tuning, but mebbe it did nothing. My understanding, at idle, there isn't much that can be done with the parameters available, but I hope someone on the HPT board can prove me wrong.

[Blackbombshell9]

I haven't tested it with this engine setup. What I did, since the 'ticket' is good for 1 yr, 6 months before I needed to renew my plates, and 1 month before the engine setup, I got an e-test. This was with HF cat and exhaust. Passed easily.

I knew I was going to have issues with emissions, particularly over the last year, due to other obligations, I have totally neglected the car. No track, no tuning, just oil changes and the odd time i'd switch out plugs. I've been noticing my fuel mileage gradually goin to the crapper, but did nothing about it, cuz.....

I'll go back to my original plan and replace the cat. I assumed this was the issue in the first place.

I have done VE tuning, but mebbe it did nothing. My understanding, at idle, there isn't much that can be done with the parameters available, but I hope someone on the HPT board can prove me wrong.

Don't go around just replacing parts here and there without knowing if they are faulty. Unless they are parts normally changed when doing a tuneup. Plugs,wires, pcv, air filter, oil, fuel injector cleanor. I'm guessing you are using a top tier gasoline?
If you can I'd start by posting your emissions sheet. That will give me a good idea of what is going on.
I don't know if this might help your idle but a different cam with possibly more LSA might help. 112 or 114 lsa.

[xonelith]

Don't go around just replacing parts here and there without knowing if they are faulty. Unless they are parts normally changed when doing a tuneup. Plugs,wires, pcv, air filter, oil, fuel injector cleanor.

Ya, the only part that may not be faulty (but I assume is) is the cat. I tend to scrape my cat on the entrance to my employers parking garage if I don't get the angle right. Maybe I've shaken something loose, but I don't think it will hurt. This is also not the cat that I passed emissions with prior to the engine work.

I'm guessing you are using a top tier gasoline?

Using Sunoco 94 octane.

If you can I'd start by posting your emissions sheet. That will give me a good idea of what is going on.

See the link to HPTuners post in the original post. My emissions sheet is there, and an HPT scan at idle (includes afr).

I don't know if this might help your idle but a different cam with possibly more LSA might help. 112 or 114 lsa.

I won't be doing this, as I don't have the resources to swap cams. Can't remember what the current LSA is... I'll have to pull out the sheet :)

Have you passed emissions before with your engine setup?

Just to add to this, I haven't, but MMGT1 did with an almost identical setup.

Thanks for everyones help!!

-xon

[Blackbombshell9]

Your idle HC's are tremendous! A cat won't fix that problem. You've got a misfire. Fuel is escaping the combustion chamber without being burnt. Ignition/fuel problem possibly. Have you pulled your plugs? What plugs are you using and what are they gapped at? Don't use bosch plugs.

[xonelith]

Your idle HC's are tremendous!

LOL.. no kidding.. more than double the minimum... :(

A cat won't fix that problem. You've got a misfire. Fuel is escaping the combustion chamber without being burnt.

Will a new cat help? Or would I be wasting time changing this without a retest first?

Ignition problem possibly. Have you pulled your plugs? What plugs are you using and what are they gapped at? Don't use bosch plugs.

I'm using NGK TR6's, gapped at 0.055. I haven't looked at them since the summer, so this is another reason why I want to change them (I'm definitely due).

If i'm misfiring, wouldn't I throw a code? Flashing light or something?

Thanks
-xon

[Blackbombshell9]

I believe that you will throw a light when you are 2.5 times post your emissions limit. Because that can damage your cat. Let me check my notes. brb.

[Blackbombshell9]

My emissions chart here in my book is showing that you are misfiring based on your emissions report.

Excessive HC emissions may be caused by:
Ignition system misfiring.
Improper ignition timing
Excessively lean or rich airfuel ratio
low cylinder compression
defective valves, guides, or lifters
defective rings, pistons, cylinders
vacuum leaks
dirty fu el injector
excessive egr action
defective system imput sensor.

Your excessive CO emissions may be caused by
rich air/fuel mixtures
plugged PCV valve or hose
dirty air filter
leaking fu el injectors
higher than normal fuel pressures
ruptured disphram in the fuel pressure regulator
defective system input sensor

At idle you have excessive HC and CO emissions which may be caused by
plugged PCV system
Rich air fu el ratio
engine oil diluted with gasoline

[Vegeta]

Im not an emissions expert, but I didn't figure your cam would be causing an emissions problem. Similar cams have passed, and yours doesn't have that much overlap that I have specs for.

Corey has emissions covered and his list looks about right to me. I would add the O2 sensor as well, which would make tuning impossible anyway.

[Blackbombshell9]

I think something might be wrong with your tune. Who tuned your car?

I'd start by replacing your pcv valve and then checking your plugs. If your plugs and even check your compression.

[lone_wolf025]

My money says misfire as well.

Things to consider is that CO shows you do have some combustion taking place albeit a richer mixture, and the lean afr at idle, along with the ludicrously high HC readings all point that way. Fix the misfire and you should be ok.

[xonelith]

I tuned the car, but didn't do really anything at idle except for the injector scaling and idle. The scan shows nice afr's and my LTFT's are around 3.9. It was running good when I did the initial tune, but as I mentioned above, I've pretty much neglected the car in the last year and a half.

Thanks for the list. It may be a misfire. I'll start with plugs, wires and pcv, then go for a retest.

I hope it's not a compression issue. The bottom end is stock, and I've been worried about rings (220,000km's!!)

Thanks again. Everyone here has been very helpful.

-xon

[Blackbombshell9]

update us ok

[xonelith]

Sorry it took so long to provide an update. I wanted to make sure Milzy saw the oil & plugs before a tune up.

In any event, I have succesfully passed emissions!!!!

Attempt #1 - results in the original post - FAILED

Attempt #2 - new plugs, wires, oil, no PCV or EVAP (ya.. i'm changing this back) - nothing else changed - Better results, but still FAILED similar to attempt #1
http://ca.geocities.com/xonelith/Emissions_2007_2.jpg

Attempt #3 - spending 150 bucks for diagnosis, shop said there was no way to pass since cat was ok, 02's were ok, only way to pass was converting back to stock. They ran the retest after tightening a loose battery terminal and resetting fuel trims and i FRIGGIN PASSED ANYWAY!!!!
http://ca.geocities.com/xonelith/Emissions_2007_3.jpg

I'm not sure I totally understand these results from today, but I'm happy with the end result:)

So, I basically paid someone 150 bucks to tightening a battery terminal, reset fuel trims, tell me my cat and o2 were ok.... bah... oh well... a real pass is what I was aiming for.

-xon