Stalling on Startup [Archive] - GrandAmGT.com Forum

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newonstl
04-17-2009, 08:00 PM
My 1998 GT has an intermittent problem at startup. It's becoming more regular and happens when it's cold or hot. It starts right up when you turn the key, but won't stay running more than 2 seconds. Yesterday It took me 20 minutes to get it started yesterday after a quick errand. It has a slightly rough idle after starting.

I cleaned the EGR valve last night. I checked the fuel pressure tonight, and it remains around 40psi even after it stalls. I had replaced the MAF with a good looking recycled one last month and it acted a little better for a while. Today it wouldn't stay running until I disconnected the MAF harness. It started right up, although idled pretty rough. Error code 102 was set. Does this mean the MAF is bad? Or, is there something else that this indicates. 100,000 miles, original EGR, original O2 sensors.

Any thoughts or suggestions?
Greg

newonstl
05-02-2009, 08:25 PM
I did a little more research and found out the passlock system is my problem. Read the service manual and the passlock system shuts off the injectors which makes the car stall. Going to open up the steering column and clean up the sensor to see if it's the problem.

juanvan
05-05-2009, 07:59 PM
Is that what your 102 error was - the passlock?

newonstl
07-22-2009, 08:21 PM
Well, I think my problem is solved....finally.
:banghead
Such a buggy freaking issue it was hard to determine where the fault was. In case anyone is looking for a solution to the same problem, here's what I found out. Battery voltage is sent to the instrument cluster via orange & black wires. The instrument cluster sends battery voltage to the hall sensor in the ignition cylinder via white & black wires. The hall sensor detects the key turning in the cylinder and sends back a reduced voltage back to the instrument cluster via the yellow wire. The instrument cluster reads that voltage from the ignition and determines if it matches what it has "learned" earlier. If it's correct, the instrument cluster sends a signal to the PCM (Powertrain Control Module) and the fuel pump and injectors are left running. If the voltage returned from the ignition is incorrect, the instrument panel does not send a signal to the PCM and the injectors will shut off.

I repeatedly measured the voltage across the black & yellow wire at the ignition cylinder and always found 3.09V - 3.17V whether the car started or not. I tried the 30 minute relearn procedure several times and sometimes it worked and the car worked for a few days. Then it would fail miserably.

I read one note very recently that if the theft sys light blinks for only a short time it indicates a fault in the instrument cluster. Today I went to the junkyard and picked up an instrument cluster with 160K miles, plugged it in, did the 30 minute relearn procedure, and then had to wait for one more 10 minute learn procedure before the instrument cluster learned the signal from my ignition. One thing I immediately noticed was the theft sys light blinking the whole time I had the ignition on for 10 minutes after a stall. The old instrument cluster blinked 5 times and stayed on solid.

This is what I learned over the past several months about the passlock I system. In the end, my Grand Am has 60K extra miles on the odometer, but that's fine by me if I don't get stranded again.
:gablack2:

juanvan
07-27-2009, 08:26 AM
You should get the mileage fixed at the dealer for the instrument cluster. Car fax won't like you and a shop might not inspect you(pending your state)
Glad you posted the fix :)
Those electrical problems are a pain.

IanGT99
07-28-2009, 10:22 AM
In the later model GT's, you can "bypass" the Passlock system by simply getting the car to start and stay on, then pulling the cover on the ignition cylinder, pulling the wires out, and snipping the yellow wire. Then there is no "relearn" procedure everytime you start the car. It's always what it was when the car started fine right before you cut the wire. Keep in mind you CANNOT cut the wire when the car is turned off. I did this over two years ago after I got totally sick of my car not starting every third time and waiting 20 minutes to go somewhere. The only side effect is that the Security light is constantly on. I put a piece of black tape over it and it doesn't bother me at all. Passlock is the worst "security system" to ever be invented. The guy that came up with it should be tarred and feathered.

As for your rough idle, I can say pretty confidently that the throttle body and plate is dirty. Take off your air intake and MAF and look in the TB at the plate. Even the slightest build up will cause a rough idle. Mine was doing the same thing, then I used a little brake cleaner on a clean cloth, wiped out the whole thing (even used a Qtip for the smaller crevices), and it's started and idled beautifully for well over 6 months now. Try that...

ltpats
07-28-2009, 12:27 PM
You should get the mileage fixed at the dealer for the instrument cluster. Car fax won't like you and a shop might not inspect you(pending your state)
Glad you posted the fix :)
Those electrical problems are a pain.

2 of the oddest electrical problems I have ever seen were 1) the alternator was actually spinning even after the car was turned off but the weirdest was on a 1977 Chevy Impala if you put this certain bulb (which was the cause of the problem) in the left rear taillight socket, started the car and turned on the left turn signal, the car would not shut off, you could pull the key out of the ignition and it would keep running.

2000 GT Coupe
07-28-2009, 12:40 PM
In the later model GT's, you can "bypass" the Passlock system by simply getting the car to start and stay on, then pulling the cover on the ignition cylinder, pulling the wires out, and snipping the yellow wire. Then there is no "relearn" procedure everytime you start the car. It's always what it was when the car started fine right before you cut the wire. Keep in mind you CANNOT cut the wire when the car is turned off. I did this over two years ago after I got totally sick of my car not starting every third time and waiting 20 minutes to go somewhere. The only side effect is that the Security light is constantly on. I put a piece of black tape over it and it doesn't bother me at all. Passlock is the worst "security system" to ever be invented. The guy that came up with it should be tarred and feathered.

As for your rough idle, I can say pretty confidently that the throttle body and plate is dirty. Take off your air intake and MAF and look in the TB at the plate. Even the slightest build up will cause a rough idle. Mine was doing the same thing, then I used a little brake cleaner on a clean cloth, wiped out the whole thing (even used a Qtip for the smaller crevices), and it's started and idled beautifully for well over 6 months now. Try that...


there is a way to not have that security light on, plus if you disconnect the battery your not screwed.
use a resister between the yellow and black wires, behind the ignition or at the bcm.

http://www.bergerweb.net/grandamsecurityfix.htm

IanGT99
07-29-2009, 10:15 AM
Good find, man. I'm not too worried about it now. I've had my battery disconnected at least five times since I snipped the yellow wire and I've had no problems with the car starting. Maybe this is something I'll look into when I go to trade in the car, but it works for me for now. Thanks for the link...

2000 GT Coupe
07-29-2009, 12:26 PM
No problem, I found it on this site myself, I was getting that very annoying no start till I did that.

Lab Rat
07-29-2009, 12:58 PM
Does anyone know which wire I would need to snip to disable the idiot light? There must be 50 wires going into the cluster.

IanGT99
07-30-2009, 10:19 AM
The wire that supplies the illumination power to the Security light also runs a few other lights on the dash. I wouldn't try to snip anything going to the gauge cluster.