New Crank Pulley Available [Archive]

MJE95GAGT

01-22-2003, 11:06 AM

I thought I would share some info with the GA community. Check out www.fastfwdperformance.com/ud.htm to see the new crank pulley available for the 3100 and 3400. The first 35 get it for $80 while the next will have to pay $95. They will be dynoing it this weekend. Also, I have been informed that they will be trying to make a polyuerethene dog-bone for us and the 3800 as well. I have heard good things from them on the 60degreeV6 forum and Michael from Fast Forward Performance has been very helpful and responding quickly to my emails these past few months.

aleroboy

01-22-2003, 11:22 AM

I deal closely with Michael and the pulleys will be on my site after 3100/3400 testing is complete
This weekend test wil be on an older style 3.1L
the mount he is doing for the 3400 isn't really a dogbone but lots like what rsm has for us.
However they will be sold in pairs. (front and rear) instead of just one. the dogbones he is making are for the w-body platform.
These will be dyno tested and vids taken so you can see the difference with and without. if you watch my vids now the moter really flops and definately needs somthing like this.

also looks like the mounts will fit the 2.4L as well

mfuller

01-22-2003, 11:29 AM

Dammit, John....I was so close to having a happy checkbook....

jsos431

01-22-2003, 11:37 AM

is this pulley going to be good for our engines or will it mess it up supposedly like the underdrive pulleys? is it hard to change the crank pulley? what are the expected gains?

aleroboy

01-22-2003, 11:45 AM

We'll know more about gains after the weekend and when its tested.
As for problems with charging and such this is also a concern of mine with having a sterio and all.
My friend mike (N2O-OLDS) has a set of alt and wp pullies and has had no troubles but he also doesnt have a large sterio.
I'm going to try and tlk Michael into making a smaller alt pulley for those who have larger demands on their charging system.

The pulley still has a good amount of weight to it to make sure it dampens out vibrations properly.
The pulley is fairly easy to change, A new belt will be required and a pulley puller will be needed.
You can get the belt from autozone and borrow the puller from them too.
They only require a deposit which is refunded when you bring it back.

mjhurley1

01-22-2003, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by mfuller
Dammit, John....I was so close to having a happy checkbook....

LOL I know how you feel. My checkbook hasn't been happy since I bought my car.wtf

SpyhunteR

01-23-2003, 01:54 AM

mmmmmm mounts.. i need mounts... plse let there be hope

bowtiekid79

01-23-2003, 03:09 AM

Hey all, this is Michael from FFP. I made a page with some info on the pulley. Click the link (in red) at the bottom of the page:

http://fastfwdperformance.com/ud.htm

It should help answer any questions you may have. I will be making dogbones (yes the real deal, not the same as what John is talking about) for the 3100/3800. I won't have them out right away, but it is something I'm working on. Let me know if you guys have any questions!

Michael
FFP

GTManiac

01-23-2003, 05:32 PM

now I need to grab $80 ($95 if I don't get it in time...) man you guys are killing my check book too. I've been working 84 hours a week for the last month and I was starting to think I could catch up with bills and then you bring this stuff out... lol Looking forward to getting this and the dogbones (<---- will def. need them when I am done...)

jsos431

01-23-2003, 05:39 PM

i hope the dyno results show some gain cause i won't mind spending $80 for this. i can't wait to see the results. keep us posted.

bowtiekid79

01-23-2003, 05:46 PM

I have an appointment at the dyno shop tomorrow at 3pm (Mtn time). We installed the pulley last night and seat of the pants feel was better than the chip (5 hp and 10ft lbs increase). You can now bark the tires in 2nd at 35mph. The guys wife (it was her 92 3.1 Beretta) even called him today to say that she liked it and felt it had a lot more power... something she did NOT do when we put the chip in. The gains should be good! The nicest part was that the voltage at idle was not affected! WOOO HOOOO!!!! Check the site tomorrow night for the dyno chart.

Michael

MJE95GAGT

01-23-2003, 06:14 PM

I know how you guys feel about catching up with the bills :mad: But be sure to post here first after the dyno Michael :D Ive been lurking around this site for a while now just never registered until a few weeks ago and was surprised no one had mentioned anything about the pulleys. Hey John, just wondering how much will you be charging them for? Its good that more people have noticed the aftermarket potential of GA's lately, thanks Michael. Hey mfuller, I see you are from Loves Park huh?

Spoon

01-23-2003, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by aleroboy
I deal closely with Michael and the pulleys will be on my site after 3100/3400 testing is complete
This weekend test wil be on an older style 3.1L
the mount he is doing for the 3400 isn't really a dogbone but lots like what rsm has for us.
However they will be sold in pairs. (front and rear) instead of just one. the dogbones he is making are for the w-body platform.
These will be dyno tested and vids taken so you can see the difference with and without. if you watch my vids now the moter really flops and definately needs somthing like this.

also looks like the mounts will fit the 2.4L as well Now I am going to be flat critical of what "you need". There is nothing and I repeat nothing that changing those torque reaction mounts to anything else will do for you for performance, oh excuse me, except perfom an emptying of your wallet. The engine does not flop around and if any of you guys buy into this...... give me a phone # and I will personally call and explain why you don't need to waste your money. Qualifications????? I've been doing this for a living for a long time and I did the development work on that "floppy" mount system.

bowtiekid79

01-23-2003, 06:23 PM

John and i have yet to work out his the price (most likely the same as my price) . I dont even have an exact amount as far as what they are going to cost me. He will be getting them directly from me, so it will be IDENTICAL. I'm just going to have see how things go for the first few months. I'm sure he will keep you all posted.

aleroboy

01-23-2003, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by Spoon
Now I am going to be flat critical of what "you need". There is nothing and I repeat nothing that changing those torque reaction mounts to anything else will do for you for performance, oh excuse me, except perfom an emptying of your wallet. The engine does not flop around and if any of you guys buy into this...... give me a phone # and I will personally call and explain why you don't need to waste your money. Qualifications????? I've been doing this for a living for a long time and I did the development work on that "floppy" mount system.

Well spoon pm me if you want my number and here is the vid of the "non floppy mounts"

http://www.ourpeak.com/choate/videos/cocrew/oct26/Alero320HPN2Odyno.WMV
seeing is beliving so see this and belive me you need to go back to the drawing table on the mounts if you think they are fine stock.

if you still say they dont flop then your blind
in this vid my car had less than 30k on the mounts.

I know there is no performance gain from mounts but on the dyno you can see what the mounts do I allready have my before pics now I just need my after.

Vegeta

01-23-2003, 06:50 PM

I hope you didnt develope the hydraulic lower mount on my 3.1 grand prix. Yeah, GM did a great job on that setup, and the crappy rubber in the dogbones that lasted me 5000 miles.

Spoon

01-23-2003, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by Vegeta
I hope you didnt develope the hydraulic lower mount on my 3.1 grand prix. Yeah, GM did a great job on that setup, and the crappy rubber in the dogbones that lasted me 5000 miles. Nope, and I can say I am glad.

Spoon

01-23-2003, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by aleroboy

Well spoon pm me if you want my number and here is the vid of the "non floppy mounts"

http://www.ourpeak.com/choate/videos/cocrew/oct26/Alero320HPN2Odyno.WMV
seeing is beliving so see this and belive me you need to go back to the drawing table on the mounts if you think they are fine stock.

if you still say they dont flop then your blind
in this vid my car had less than 30k on the mounts.

I know there is no performance gain from mounts but on the dyno you can see what the mounts do I allready have my before pics now I just need my after. I am just truing to understand what your "flopping" around does to anything relevant to any performance attributes. That movement, or any other is soley of function of the level of isolation between the powertrain and the vehicle structure. If you are truly worried about your engine floppying. Try a welder, might be cheaper. For the rest of you guys, I think you will find the powertrain isolation less that desirable for absolutely no gain in any performance what so ever.

aleroboy

01-23-2003, 07:46 PM

They wont do much performance wise but respone wise they will help.

Me personly I don't like that much movement with my motor.
If anyting it will help get the power to the ground faster because less time is lost to movement in the mounts.
Yes the car will ride rougher, but I dont like to feel my motor move on every shift anyway.

To each their own and for those that wnat them we will build them.

Vegeta

01-23-2003, 07:50 PM

I can tell you what 1 broken hydraulic mount and 2 rotted/broken dogbone rubber mounts does for performance, and the tranny mount, and the transmission itself. Nothing good.

Its not going to add power, which isn't the idea anyway as far as I can tell. It helps with response. Its negligable, but it does exist and to say it doesnt would be ignorance. From a stand still to WOT, the engine will twist against rubber mounts. New, its not that bad...but rubber sucks for longeviry and as it gets weaker, the engine moves more. The more the engine moves, the longer it takes to take the torque from the crank and apply it to the input shaft and out the axles to the wheels.

Think of it as a maintenance upgrade, and a response upgrade over the inevitable delay in the purchase of new mounts over time. Now that I have poly dogbones, I dont think my crappy hydraulic lower mount will give out quite so often because the engine isnt moving around.

Stock mounts were a design for comfort. If GM designed everything the best, we would have no aftermarket.

Spoon

01-23-2003, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by aleroboy
They wont do much performance wise but respones wise they will help.
Actually the guy form canada on the borad that had the full SA packedge and Headers showed a gain on the dyno with rsm's mount. (his name slips me right now)
Me personly I don't like that much movement with my motor.
If anyting it will help get the power to the ground because less is lost to movement in the mounts.
Yes the car will ride rougher, but I dont like to feel my motor move on every shift anyway.

To each their own and for those that wnat them we will build them. Well for those of you who read this and have spent your parents hard earned money going to school, please take the time to explain that rigdly mounting that powertrain will do nothing in regards to putting "more power to the ground". We have evaluated vehicles for suspesion dynamics related to power hop with aluminum mounts replacing the rubber and the only difference was a noisy car.

Spoon

01-23-2003, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by Vegeta
I can tell you what 1 broken hydraulic mount and 2 rotted/broken dogbone rubber mounts does for performance, and the tranny mount, and the transmission itself. Nothing good.

Its not going to add power, which isn't the idea anyway as far as I can tell. It helps with response. Its negligable, but it does exist and to say it doesnt would be ignorance. From a stand still to WOT, the engine will twist against rubber mounts. New, its not that bad...but rubber sucks for longeviry and as it gets weaker, the engine moves more. The more the engine moves, the longer it takes to take the torque from the crank and apply it to the input shaft and out the axles to the wheels.

Think of it as a maintenance upgrade, and a response upgrade over the inevitable delay in the purchase of new mounts over time. Now that I have poly dogbones, I dont think my crappy hydraulic lower mount will give out quite so often because the engine isnt moving around.

Stock mounts were a design for comfort. If GM designed everything the best, we would have no aftermarket. Huge difference between replacing a mount because it is worren out and because you think that the displacement reduction of a properly function mount will improve your performance, it won't.:confused:

Vegeta

01-23-2003, 08:05 PM

Yeah, and considering my mounts laster 5-10k, it was worth the expense. Take the stock rubber mount at 50k (who here has replaced their mount at 50k when it wasnt broken) and poly. More difference than both being new. Considering the BS mods out there, this one is hardly the one to say its worthless too. It has a slight advantage in performance, and a major one in longevity. Hell, I dont see a penny from these things, and I didnt design the original ones so I dont have my pride on the line either. I fail to see anyone saying its a performance upgrade other than you, so it makes me wonder what your point was.

aleroboy

01-23-2003, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by Spoon
Huge difference between replacing a mount because it is worren out and because you think that the displacement reduction of a properly function mount will improve your performance, it won't.:confused:

Ah yes the allmighty spoon knows all
we seen just how correct you were on headers.
no power huh?
Guess 19 hp at the wheels is no power to you. :rolleyes:

Vegeta is right, if you guys built the best stuff there would be no need for an aftermarket.
You build what the general public likes. And they dont like a stiff responsive ride. They want the plush mobile to get form point a to point b. Well for those that like response, there are us that will make it for them.
If you talk everyone out of mounts, cool, whatever, but I'lll still have them on my ride and won't have to feel my motor flop everytime my car shifts.
I dunno maybe you like the plushmobile feel.

Spoon

01-23-2003, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by aleroboy

Ah yes the allmighty spoon knows all
we seen just how correct you were on headers.
no power huh?
Guess 19 hp at the wheels is no power to you. :rolleyes:

Vegeta is right, if you guys built the best stuff there would be no need for an aftermarket.
You build what the general public likes. And they dont like a stiff responsive ride. They want the plush mobile to get form point a to point b. Well for those that like response, there are us that will make it for them.
If you talk everyone out of mounts, cool, whatever, but I'lll still have them on my ride and won't have to feel my motor flop everytime my car shifts.
I dunno maybe you like the plushmobile feel. It is quite humorous how the story changes as we go. You equated "flop" with a loss in what most would be consider performance, I believe as you so eloquently stated "power to the road". I don't drive "plush" other than the company car I own tow CK pickups and drag race a Corvette. You are trying to school the wrong guy. And as far as pride, I left that behind a lonog time ago. After all I play with cars.:boogie: :thumbs:

Vegeta

01-23-2003, 08:21 PM

Great, then why is this thread now about the mounts when the topic is about the crank pulley? That could have gone in a new thread at the very least.

Im done...it makes no sense to continue.

mfuller

01-23-2003, 08:24 PM

Do I need to seperate you two? :rolleyes:

Seriously, instead of being sarcastic, making people feel dumb, or just being plain rude.....let's try to keep this discussion civilized and maybe we'll all learn something.

Play on, boys. :thumbs:

aleroboy

01-23-2003, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by Vegeta
Great, then why is this thread now about the mounts when the topic is about the crank pulley? That could have gone in a new thread at the very least.

Im done...it makes no sense to continue.

Agreed, everything form spoons first thread to here should be deleted because its not even about the original topic.

oh and I allready took you to school on the headers spoon.
or did you forget that?
I seem to remember you saying somthing about it setting off the knock snensor and retarding the timing back so far no gains would be seen.

aleroboy

01-23-2003, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Spoon
It is quite humorous how the story changes as we go.

Yea it is pretty funny considering this topic is about an underdrive pulley. :rolleyes:

jsos431

01-23-2003, 10:00 PM

well anyways, now back to the crank pulley, is the dyno going to be on the Beretta with the 3.1L not the 3.4. will the results be the same for both engines? this sounds very promising and can't wait for the results.

aleroboy

01-23-2003, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by jsos431
well anyways, now back to the crank pulley, is the dyno going to be on the Beretta with the 3.1L not the 3.4. will the results be the same for both engines? this sounds very promising and can't wait for the results.

The testing will first be done on the beretta
the 3400 should be about the same.

bowtiekid79

01-23-2003, 10:08 PM

that is correct. The gains should be VERY close on all the engines since they all use about the same accessories and same pulley sizes on those accessories.

Michael

bszopi

01-23-2003, 10:10 PM

And to think I never got involved in this one!! :( Oh well, maybe next time!:boogie:

I'm interested in the results of this as well. Cause if it works, then I might have to talk to Michael about making one special for me to include 4 magnets and no reluctance wheel.... :rolleyes:

Oh, and I like the FFP around the outside. Makes me wish we could only see it on a regular basis. Oh well, its still cool!

bowtiekid79

01-23-2003, 10:12 PM

you mean you dont look at your crank pulley every day, Brad? whats wrong with you!. I'm sure I could make something for you if you need me to.

bszopi

01-23-2003, 10:43 PM

Well.. here is what I will be using for right now... my own little machinist skills!

Here is a close up and the attached is on the car:

http://www.60degreev6.com/hlperf/Current%20Vehicle/Beretta/Performance/ECM%20Stuff/Image27.jpg

bowtiekid79

01-23-2003, 10:51 PM

sweet. thats easy enough to do. we could build that right in pretty easily

Doug

01-23-2003, 11:04 PM

Well I don't know about performance but I do need mounts because when my engine "flops " :) it will push the turbo and manifold into my firewall and probably crack the manifold.

Vegeta

01-23-2003, 11:04 PM

Not bad...for a beretta owner:)

jsos431

01-23-2003, 11:26 PM

Since this crank pulley will be available soon and I will probably get it if the dyno results are too my liking but I was hoping someone could give me some help when taking the belt off. I was just wondering how much to loosen the belt tensioner so the belt comes off. If anyone could give steps through the process, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

X-ception

01-24-2003, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by jsos431
Since this crank pulley will be available soon and I will probably get it if the dyno results are too my liking but I was hoping someone could give me some help when taking the belt off. I was just wondering how much to loosen the belt tensioner so the belt comes off. If anyone could give steps through the process, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

check here

belt (http://www.grandamgt.com/belt.html)

oh and about this pulley, besides the hp and tq gains, what can we expect to see gained in the 1/4 mile. I know a cai doesn't yield alot of hp but delivers a pretty good pickup in the 1/4. I hope this kind of follows that concept but i guess we have to wait and see.

bowtiekid79

01-24-2003, 11:07 PM

Check out the info/dyno results here:

http://fastfwdperformance.com/udinfo.htm

Seemed to help the top end quite a bit (as well as peak HP)

GTManiac

01-25-2003, 12:26 AM

this is GREAT news. I figured it would help, but a 6.3 to the wheels is EXCELLENT. As soon as I can scrum together the $100 you will have sold another one of these. Congrats on the job well done. Looking forward to seeing more from you.

bowtiekid79

01-25-2003, 12:34 AM

Thanks. Its actually 5.2 at the wheels and 6.3 at the crank, but i KNOW we could have gotten 6.3 at the wheels if we had a fair comparison (let the car cool off like the first time). The 10 hp gain at 5000rpm is about 12 at the crank. The increase on the top end is very noticable. We haven't had 35 orders yet, so you can still get one for $80.

jsos431

01-25-2003, 12:35 AM

I just ordered mine. I did it sooo soon because I wanted to save the $15. Thanks for all the info with the dynoing and customer service you showed us. Thanks I can't wait to get it.

luniz

01-25-2003, 12:38 AM

Okay I have a sound system with a stock alternator and battery. Is this going to dim out my whole car. I noticed on the webpage that it only decreased very slightly but I don't really know much about those numbers anyway as far as whats good or bad. So I am just wondering if this wouldn't be a good match for my car?

MJE95GAGT

01-25-2003, 12:44 AM

Damn, I took a risk and ordered it before it was even dynoed just so I could be one of the first 35, looks like I didnt even need to order it that soon. O well, its all good! Great results Michael!!:thumbs:

bowtiekid79

01-25-2003, 02:01 AM

It’s a moot point to say whether or not anyone's lights will dim with the pulley at idle... everyone has a different system. Not all of your amps draw the same amount of current. Obviously a guy with two 12s drawing 2000watts has more to worry about than someone with a single 8 and 400 watts. It also depends on how much you crank it up at idle. We turned on every accessory we could on the test car to see how it would handle it, and we didn’t have any problems. Also, every alternator is a little different. Some put out more at a given RPM than others do. I don’t think anyone will have a problems as long as you don’t crank it up all the way at idle. The newer GM alternators seem to be pretty decent (a helluva lot better than the POS on my 3.4 DOHC!), so you should be okay. As for the numbers we got on the site... 13.7 volts is very good for running the lights, fan, etc at idle. Anything above 13v and you should be okay.

X-ception

01-25-2003, 12:08 PM

so does that 80 include shipping?

GroovyGT

01-25-2003, 02:28 PM

Yeah I see myself putting in an order real soon, but I was wondering...should I wait until after my extended warranty runs out before installing it? I'd love an extra 5 HP for $80...

voodooalero

01-25-2003, 02:44 PM

X-ception - I oredered one earlier today and was only charged $79.99, nothing additional for shipping.

X-ception

01-25-2003, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by voodooalero
X-ception - I oredered one earlier today and was only charged $79.99, nothing additional for shipping.

ok, cool. any idea when they are gonna ship out.

jsos431

01-25-2003, 04:32 PM

he said that they would be shipping them out in a couple weeks. he said faster he gets orders the faster he can get them made.

iceman

01-25-2003, 04:45 PM

I thought smaller pulleys vs. larger pulleys, smaller pulleys would be spinning faster???? Maybe I didn't pay attention in physics class, but help me out why that would slow down the accessories?

I placed a pre-order... whatever I can do to help :)

voodooalero

01-25-2003, 05:45 PM

The pulley will still spin at the same speed due to the fact that it is attached to the crank. But being smaller each time the pulley completes one revolution the belt is not turned as far as it would be with the larger stock pulley. The larger pulley is moving the belt more per revolution compared to the smaller pulley thus underdriving the other accessories. Hence the name "underdrive pulley".

Now if we were talking about a smaller pulley on the alternator, that pulley would spin faster. I wonder if this could be done to make up any loss in alternator output due to the underdrive. Maybe FFP or aleroboy could comment on this.

GTManiac

01-25-2003, 06:07 PM

simpler version to the above would be that the crank pulley is the one driving all of the other pulleys so regardless of size it will spin at the same rate.

Being smaller means it has less surface area to travel due to a smaller diameter. So because of the smaller surface area it pulls on less of the belt and slows the belt down.

EASIEST way to think of this is to take a BIG wheel and a small wheel. Mark a spot anywhere on either of the wheels. Now put the wheels so that their marks are facing straight down on the ground and roll each wheel until they make a complete revolution. The bigger wheel will have gone farther than the smaller one. :thumbs:

AaronGTR

01-26-2003, 02:08 AM

I must say I'm not interested at all in the pulley. I don't want to under drive any of my accessories (especially the blower pulley:D ) but I would be interested in engine mounts. I don't want to start any arguments again but I have to say they'd be worth it. The improved durability is important when increasing horse power, and there is a slight power advantage too (especially during shifts). It's simple physics. The engine makes a given amount of power (which is simply a function of torque and rpm) and any power that moves the engine isn't being sent to the ground to move the car. By keeping the engine more stable you can put more power to the ground. Race car builders have known this for years. Remeber, just because someone's an engineer doesn't mean they know how to build a fast car. Their job is to accomplish the goals set down by the company, which usually sacrifice speed for comfort.

X-ception

01-26-2003, 03:26 PM

I wonder how many more orders till they reach 35?.....I placed mine :thumbs:

nfsga

01-26-2003, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by X-ception
I wonder how many more orders till they reach 35?.....I placed mine :thumbs:

Me too. 5hp is enough for me.

jeremy96gase

01-27-2003, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by nfsga
Me too. 5hp is enough for me.
me too i ordered mine.

iceman

01-27-2003, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by GTManiac
simpler version to the above would be that the crank pulley is the one driving all of the other pulleys so regardless of size it will spin at the same rate.

Being smaller means it has less surface area to travel due to a smaller diameter. So because of the smaller surface area it pulls on less of the belt and slows the belt down.

EASIEST way to think of this is to take a BIG wheel and a small wheel. Mark a spot anywhere on either of the wheels. Now put the wheels so that their marks are facing straight down on the ground and roll each wheel until they make a complete revolution. The bigger wheel will have gone farther than the smaller one. :thumbs:

Thanks for the explanation guys that helped a lot :)

X-ception

01-29-2003, 05:09 AM

5 spots left. So if you were thinking about getting one, nows your chance for $80.

eric99gt

01-29-2003, 07:25 AM

Say i'm not the greatest car mechanic out there. I know some basic stuff and all but i'm no genius. How hard would this be to install on my 3400. Thanks for any info.

mfuller

01-29-2003, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by eric99gt
Say i'm not the greatest car mechanic out there. I know some basic stuff and all but i'm no genius. How hard would this be to install on my 3400. Thanks for any info.
The hardest part will be removing the 24x crank sensor ring from the stock torsional damper (fancy term for the crank pulley) and pressing it into the new pulley.

nfsga

01-29-2003, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by mfuller
The hardest part will be removing the 24x crank sensor ring from the stock torsional damper (fancy term for the crank pulley) and pressing it into the new pulley.

But we can just get it out with a hammer and screwdriver, right? :thumbs:

X-ception

01-29-2003, 04:41 PM

how much play can you have with a belt with the tensioner in mind?

autozone.com lists the gatorback belt at 86.5 for stock size
goodyear's website says 86.8

After subtracting the 1.5 for the smaller pulley, would you get a 85.0 or 85.5 since these are the only gatorback sizes around that average. I would think you would go for the bigger one b/c if its too small it isnt gonna fit period.

so what do you guys think?