Porting and Polishing

[SWEET01GAGT1]

Okay I dont have the money to go all the way to the heads but I want to get just the heads or get the upper and lower in take and TB P&P. Any problems I may run into since the runners on the lower intake will not match up to the stock head ports???? I know I will not see as good of an increase in power without the heads but other than that what should I expect?

[Craig99SE2]

Use the search button and you'll find a ton of info!!!! :rage:

BTW, porting the intake runners is useless. A larger TB from APOC and upper intake matched to the TB is your best bet besides headwork.

[SWEET01GAGT1]

Let me rephrase....first of all I want most recent advise and updates and second of all I am getting the stuff from street arsenal performance.

[IrateSpeed6]

Usually a proper port and polish job is all or none... at least that's the proper way to do it... but our intake manifolds already flow pretty well, I would suggest a 62mm throttle body and a port-matched upper intake manifold.

[SWEET01GAGT1]

Yeah that is exactly what I am doing but I cant afford the heads right now. Those will come in 3-6 months so it will all be P&P all the way through

[GTManiac]

then I would suggest waiting on the WHOLE project. Save A TON of money and do it all at once.

OR

buy a spare block and build up on that.

HEY EVERYONE!

As I was writing this guess what shiny odd shaped cylindrical object (first one to mention ANY sex toys gets a club to the noggin') just appeared at my door!

[DavidScott77]

Irate... you are you saying a 62mm TB and port match on the upper/ lower intakes is all we BASICALLY need to see gains? That is if someone isn't going to buy heads right now.

[SWEET01GAGT1]

I am not going to put it off. I am going to buy the stuff. I just wanted to know what I will run into until I can afford the heads.

[zeddsdead]

Originally posted by IrateGT
Usually a proper port and polish job is all or none... at least that's the proper way to do it... but our intake manifolds already flow pretty well, I would suggest a 62mm throttle body and a port-matched upper intake manifold.

im getting port and polish work done right now on my heads and manifolds. Think they would be able to open up the upper mani to accept a 62mm Throttle Body now but run around with the stock until i actually get my hands on the larger TB for a swap out?

[IrateSpeed6]

Well, everyone talks of gasket-match gasket-match on our manifolds and heads, when in reality there really isn't much to shave off... maybe an 1/8th in big areas, but mostly a 1/16th of an inch at most... its not like in the 60's where factory heads and manifolds had a crap load of metal to take off...

The TB on our cars is a big bottle neck as far as flow goes... the manifolds and heads actually flow pretty well... (except for the exhaust manifolds, headers are a must there for the serious modder).

If you get a bigger TB, you have to port-match it to the upper intake manifold, otherwise turbulent air flow would make it counter-productive.

Keep in mind that if you're dead-set on getting the highest flow, obviously EVERYTHING has to be ported, most areas have to be polished, and you will see a very good gain.

[GroovyGT]

Yeah but what about that whole lean condition that happened with Sorry_Officer? I know he's got his car up for the winter and is putting an AFPR on...I hope that takes care of his problem. I was wondering, someone mention 4.3 ltr injectors...would 3.8's work, or is the FPR all that's needed for that lean condition?
Ok ONE more question. I'm still iffy on getting a CAI, but I was going to smooth the airbox, yank the resonator and I already have a K&N in, but if I keep the airbox, would I still see gains from the 62mm TB and port-matched manifold? (Whew! That was a mouthful...)

[IrateSpeed6]

Well, as soon as you start getting serious with headers, some P&Ping... it is a great idea to get an FPR...

If you start getting REALLY serious, you might need bigger injectors, but our stock fuel system can support upwards of 300+hp... so its all about PCM calibration. As far as keeping the stock air box / ram air setup, its not advised, but not a problem either. The stock setup is quite restrictive... just a lot of nonsense tubing and resonators... Every little bit helps.

[mjhurley1]

Originally posted by IrateGT
Well, as soon as you start getting serious with headers, some P&Ping... it is a great idea to get an FPR...

If you start getting REALLY serious, you might need bigger injectors, but our stock fuel system can support upwards of 300+hp... so its all about PCM calibration. As far as keeping the stock air box / ram air setup, its not advised, but not a problem either. The stock setup is quite restrictive... just a lot of nonsense tubing and resonators... Every little bit helps.

I've done a lot of work to the motor. Heads, intake, headers, etc.
No lean running problems. Actually runs really well. Of course I have a FPR.

[Sorry_Officer]

Originally posted by IrateGT
stock fuel system can support upwards of 300+hp... so its all about PCM calibration.

Ok to answer a few questions.........I have a digital AF guage on my car. It shows me the actual voltage readings from my o2 sensor. Here is the break down.........

.050 to .249 is lean
.250 to .749 is perfect
.750 to 1.000 is rich

My car on a cold start up will stick between .112 and .210 idleing. After warmed up still idleing it will float arount .180. I usually get the SES light 1 out of 2 start-ups within the first few minutes warmed up. Normal driving is different though never hits lean unless decellerating, sometimes I will actually get negative readings but at WOT and normal acceleration it stays between .550 and .790. Hitting lean on deceleration is normal. I was also told not to worry to much about it idling lean either. If it was running lean under acceleration then you have a very BIG BIG problem.

The stock fuel sytem can handle it, but you need that FPR to get the juices flowing better on startup and idle. Also another problem I have with my car......it won't start when the key is just turned over quickly. I have to pause for a few moments at ON to get power to the fuel system and get it pressurized. Otherwise the car will cough and not start.

My car also kinda floats when around 25mph or 35mph, if you let off the gas the car will seem like it has a build-up of air it must burn off before it slows. Kinda like decelerating on a spooled up turbo.

I also heard the bigger injectors will make you run too rich and bog you down. Hey JAKETUFF didn't someone try this??

[Sorry_Officer]

Ok to seperate the long from the short.........

Do this work all at once. Also have the work done locally. I spent a fraction of the cost of Street Arsenal. Irate is right about the gasket matching......very little is to be gained from the intake manifolds. The guy who did my work actually said "What do you want me to do with these??" So all he did was round out the edges where the manifolds and heads meet so there is a smoother transition of air.

OHH and if you do this work, get better gaskets:cool:

[Vegeta]

Does it take the average then? Stock O2 is a switching type which means its switching from rich to lean at a high rate. It also means that is is most accurate at 14.7:1 and is highly inaccurate after about 13:1 and 15.5:1. Imjust wondering how a digital gauge will give you one set value when the O2 is changing all the time.

[AaronGTR]

Originally posted by SWEET01GAGT1
I am not going to put it off. I am going to buy the stuff. I just wanted to know what I will run into until I can afford the heads.

Don't bother until you can afford the heads. You won't see hardly any gain without them because the stock intake manifolds already flow well. I've also said before the SA throttle body is junk! You won't get anything from it because they don't bore it out and put in a larger throttle plate, and if the hole is the same size you're not removing any flow restriction. Their heads are good but the TB is a waste of $$$. Get a bigger TB from APOC or RSM and have it matched to the intake mani. You should get 8-10hp or more if you have a cold air intake. Then save for the heads.

[GTManiac]

Originally posted by AaronGTR
Don't bother until you can afford the heads. You won't see hardly any gain without them because the stock intake manifolds already flow well. I've also said before the SA throttle body is junk! You won't get anything from it because they don't bore it out and put in a larger throttle plate, and if the hole is the same size you're not removing any flow restriction. Their heads are good but the TB is a waste of $$$. Get a bigger TB from APOC or RSM and have it matched to the intake mani. You should get 8-10hp or more if you have a cold air intake. Then save for the heads.

it's good to see you back around posting, Aaron. Beginning to think you weren't ever coming back. Hope all is going well man.

BTW like I stated before (and he backs me up with this post) WAIT to get everything put on at the same time. I mean, what's the use of them tearing apart your engine TWICE? Cause your heads are right below the UIM and LIM. So that'd be a HUGE waste of money (close $100) to not do it all at once.

[AaronGTR]

Good to be back Jeff, even if it's only for the weekend. I'd be even happier if it didn't keep telling me the server was to busy every time I try to log onto the site. I don't remember the old one ever doing that:confused: . Oh well.

That's a good point you made about tearing things apart twice. If you're not doing the work yourself it's going to cost you more $$$.

Btw, I like your avatar;) . I missed mine. I'm glad it's back.

[Sorry_Officer]

Originally posted by Vegeta
Does it take the average then? Stock O2 is a switching type which means its switching from rich to lean at a high rate. It also means that is is most accurate at 14.7:1 and is highly inaccurate after about 13:1 and 15.5:1. Imjust wondering how a digital gauge will give you one set value when the O2 is changing all the time.

It updates 2.5 times a second and when it does it just flashes the reading at that given moment. It does flash some odd numbers at times but you can tell where it's sitting. For instance at idle this is what I see.....

.121
.136
.210
.620
.209
.450
.123
.122
.155
.210

It still flashes odd voltages but for the most part you always know where your car sits.

It's better than watching an autometer scan back and forth not knowing what you car is doing.......:rolleyes:

Maybe I will take a vid of it in the spring...........

[Dr_Kyle]

Originally posted by Sorry_Officer
It's better than watching an autometer scan back and forth not knowing what you car is doing.......:rolleyes:


God, no kidding. The A/F gauge bouncing around is completely useless. Not to mention the fact that it's only marginally accurate to begin with.

[Vegeta]

That is the nature of the stock O2 sensor. If a device is just taking snapshots, its no more accurate to tune with than any other means of reading it. Wideband is the only means I will be using to tune WOT. A scan tool would be the best means I can think of to tune idle and normal driving.

[Sorry_Officer]

Originally posted by Vegeta
That is the nature of the stock O2 sensor. If a device is just taking snapshots, its no more accurate to tune with than any other means of reading it. Wideband is the only means I will be using to tune WOT. A scan tool would be the best means I can think of to tune idle and normal driving.

I am not tuning with it though, I decided to get this one to give me the general idea of how my car is running since I got the SES light with the motorwork. It's pretty damn accurate for what it is though. It told me where my problem is and what not to be worried about.

To me it's worth it's weight in gold.

[Vegeta]

Since the O2 sensor is switching, that means it is always goes rich/lean and should average out to .5 once it is warmed up. The computer is constantly keeping the car at 14.7 unless you have a malfunction in the ignition or fuel. The only time it should read differently is when it is not warmed up and when you are in power enrichment mode (running richer for more power and O2 is ignored). I guess I am confused how it is any more accurate than the types that constantly show you the night rider back and forth gauge. THose will say rich or lean just as well as I tested on a cavalier. Lean cruise enabled showed it running lean. PE showed it running rich. Back and forth being normal.

Got a part number on the snapshot gauge?

[Sorry_Officer]

Go to www.gadgetseller.com click on digital gauges.

From what this gauge tells me our O2 sensor scans not as much as you would think. On cold start the gauge reads a constant .400 with minimal scans (always stays in the .4's). After it warms up to temp (the o2 sensor, not the engine) it will start to read ACTUAL o2 voltages that are sent to the PCM. Not sure what this is a a stock vehicle but mine will be around .200 which is lean. With engine under load it will read EXACTS, from what I am told o2 sensor voltage will not scan when throttle is applied. this shows when the o2 will read consistant numbers under load ex. .722, .723, .722. 726, .725..........until decceleration. Under heavier acceration it will read .790, .800's. I find the gauge to be very accurate.

I am also not sure how the o2 voltage could be incorrect if the gauge just reads and relays the info to the PCM. I know our o2 isn't as consitant as a wideband o2 but it is pretty good at letting you know what is going on.

02 -----> Gauge -----> PCM.............how could it be wrong?? Does the PCM flash back at the O2?? So does the guage read both signals going to and from 2 and from PCM and O2??

[Sorry_Officer]

Also Vegeta........I kinda see what you are saying about the autometer gauges and such. But how can you believe something that is inconsistant to begin with (the o2) and measure it with an scanning gauge. I would rather see the actual readings on a gauge as oppossed to a a scanning bar with green yellow and red areas for certain voltages.

2.5 snapshots a second is pretty damn good snapshot.

[Vegeta]

You cant read actual voltages, its impossible once the O2 is warmed up for your brain to translate at that speed. The O2 changes back and forth like crazy. I can read teh scan tool log and it captures 12 snapshots a second. Trust me, it goes all over the place unless you are at WOT. The computer averages out the readings and keeps the car at 14.7:1 when possible at idle and normal driving. Whether your gauge tells you .2 during its snap shots, or .7, its still flashing back and forth wildly. At WOT, the AF ratio is well below 14.7:1, to the point that the O2 sensor is way out of bounds for accuracy. It will stay pegged around .85-.98 volts. All you can do from that is figure it is rich. No accuracy, no gauge that can make it accurate.