ram air w/K&N or custom cai?

[jdub]

would the ram air with a K&N be better or custom CAI better? because it would seem to me that the ram air would be better than something that sucks air from the front fender, but it seems like alot of GT people are doing the custom cai.

J

[GTManiac]

Originally posted by jdub
would the ram air with a K&N be better or custom CAI better? because it would seem to me that the ram air would be better than something that sucks air from the front fender, but it seems like alot of GT people are doing the custom cai.

J

not this one again...

CAI HANDS DOWN.

'nuff said

[jdub]

this is probably annoying but how does that make sense? if air is being forced straight in from the furthest point of the car versus being down in the wheel well?

[SilverGA2001]

Originally posted by jdub
this is probably annoying but how does that make sense? if air is being forced straight in from the furthest point of the car versus being down in the wheel well?

Ok, I'll say it. :D Search for CAI and Ram Air. You'll find a plethra of information, and odds are any question you can think of will be answered. :cheers:

[jdub]

thanks for ALLL your patients and kindness!!!!

[peeps]

Originally posted by jdub
if air is being forced straight in from the furthest point of the car If you go out and look at your car, this is NOT happening, it goes in, is transitioned down to about a 2"x3" rectangle, then routed to a rectangular air box, passed through a filter, makes a right angle turn, goes through an accordian and then into your throttle body. It also has tubing that goes from the fender well to the bottom of the air box. If you work out the pressure drop across all those contractions and expansions, you will find it would be alot greater than the pressure drop across one smooth pipe with a filter leading all the way to your throttle body. A lower pressure drop through those components will net more flow through the intake....

Maybe one day when I am at work I can set up a flow model of the system with both setups......

[jdub]

well i dont have a GT yet so that could be why i wouldnt have understood that, but that makes alot of sense that with all those bends and a transverse mounted engine with the intake coming from the front that it would be very restrictive. thanks for the help.

[SilverGA2001]

Originally posted by peeps
If you go out and look at your car, this is NOT happening, it goes in, is transitioned down to about a 2"x3" rectangle, then routed to a rectangular air box, passed through a filter, makes a right angle turn, goes through an accordian and then into your throttle body. It also has tubing that goes from the fender well to the bottom of the air box. If you work out the pressure drop across all those contractions and expansions, you will find it would be alot greater than the pressure drop across one smooth pipe with a filter leading all the way to your throttle body. A lower pressure drop through those components will net more flow through the intake....

Maybe one day when I am at work I can set up a flow model of the system with both setups......

Not to mention at the very start when the air does enter the nostrils, there's a large plastic deflector in there. Some of the air gets deflected away, as does some of the crap that gets blown in. So it's not even getting as much air as it potentially could. Whatever amount makes up to the top and into the Ram Air duct is what we get.

[Jagey]

so in that case, would a grand am GT that has a duct going from the nostrils straight to the part that sucks the air up (thus bypassing the initial deflector) be adversely affected? Like would too must dust and dirt and junk be sucked into the engine by ducting all the air?

[SilverGA2001]

It still wouldn't do a whole lot. To get a true ram air system, you'd pretty much have to have a forward facing throttle body and run a tube from front of the car into the throttle body, somehow filtering the air before hand. I'm not sure on the dimensions on such a pipe either. But that'd be the best thing I think. The GAGT ram air is simply a gimmic to advertise, same as Wide Track for the Grand Prix. Both are heritage names to the Brand, both originating on the old GTO's. The Grand Prix's Buick counterpart, the Regal, is actually wider.

[aleroboy]

Ram air will work but not untill 70 mph+
also like mentioned above the stock system is very restrictive so the ram air can't compair to the CAI.
With the CAI you can remove the drivers side gog light and get a pretty straight shot at the filter.

Ram air is cool but has little to no benafits untill highway speeds.

[SilverGA2001]

Originally posted by aleroboy
Ram air will work but not untill 70 mph+
also like mentioned above the stock system is very restrictive so the ram air can't compair to the CAI.
With the CAI you can remove the drivers side gog light and get a pretty straight shot at the filter.

Ram air is cool but has little to no benafits untill highway speeds.

I always like it when someone says "the ram air has dyno proven gains though." :rolleyes:

[braves511]

As far as the ram air working, correct if I am wrong which I probably am but my brothers IROC had somehting similar to this and for the filtering their were to air filters right off of each side of the intake. I dont know if it is ram air but it looked like the same idea to me.

[Carmaniac]

where are people getting their CAI s now? no one can get a hold of doctor speed and apoc has a long wait.

[atc3434]

As far as the ram air working, correct if I am wrong which I probably am but my brothers IROC had somehting similar to this and for the filtering their were to air filters right off of each side of the intake. I dont know if it is ram air but it looked like the same idea to me.

For the IROC-Z... your basic concept of it being a ram air setup is correct. Air was ducted in from the front bumper area, then up, and through the two filters (one on each side) and then into the Throttle body. However, like the so called RamAir setup on the Grand Am, its more of a gimic than anything else. The function of cool outside air is good, but they need good flow to take better advantage of it.

where are people getting their CAI s now? no one can get a hold of doctor speed and apoc has a long wait.

He's back online as of a week or two ago. Not sure what he has in stock, but the websites up and alive.

[SilverSurferGT]

wut about pfyc.com? I jus checked them out the other day and noticed they have 3.4 intakes, but they're not in stock and theres a wait there too

[GundyTF]

wut about pfyc.com? I jus checked them out the other day and noticed they have 3.4 intakes, but they're not in stock and theres a wait there too

Yea I noticed those too, and was curious on weather or not those were better then the ones on doctorspeed.com..?

The ones on PFYC.com look smaller and shorter similar to the 'civic' intakes that people usually make, but they are priced the same.. Wasnt sure which was better?

[atc3434]

The one on PFYC is not a CAI, its a WAI. Do a search if you want, but the short answer is the CAI is the way to go performance wise. A WAI is a waste of money in my opinion, unless you just want the throaty sound.

[SilverSurferGT]

damnit...i had a feeling it was a WAI...curses

[04GT4me]

u can do a search for the civic CAI that a lot of people w/ GA's have done as well.. its a matter of gettin a filter and a 90 degree pipe i believe

[GundyTF]

I have been doing some searching and am interested in purchasing a CAI. I found something on ebay that interested me considering it was only 50$ and it looks similar to the one on doctorspeed.com

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7940162733&category=38634&sspagename=WDVW

Anyone know if there is a difference, or why it is so cheap?

Not a experienced ebay user so figured I would ask first...

[thomask131]

I sent the seller as well as a buyer of this product an email. I'll get back to you with what they tell me about the CAI. I'm thinking of buying one myself. The web address of the CAI is cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7940918135&category=38634 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7940918135&category=38634) It looks like a good deal and the seller has great feedback.

[atc3434]

That kit in the link above uses the stock accordian like tube from the MAF sensor to the throttlebody. If your going to upgrade to a CAI, wouldn't you want to remove the bumpiest part of the intake tract, and have a smooth passage the whole way? I would.

[thomask131]

Well the seller emailed me back and said that none of his customers had any problems with installation (of course!). But as I see it, this would be far better than the stock Ram Air which is basically useless. In essence, this is the same as the Civic CAI...all I'm trying to figure out is if you still have to modify the car (i.e. cutting pieces of it) to make the CAI fit. If so, then it is not really that great of a deal.

[GundyTF]

Well the seller emailed me back and said that none of his customers had any problems with installation (of course!). But as I see it, this would be far better than the stock Ram Air which is basically useless. In essence, this is the same as the Civic CAI...all I'm trying to figure out is if you still have to modify the car (i.e. cutting pieces of it) to make the CAI fit. If so, then it is not really that great of a deal.

Yea well, I was close to getting the doctorspeed CAI and after seeing so many grand am members here get it, I saw the price -- then went to ebay and started looking around.. Not a very experienced ebay user as I mentioned, but I would rather spend more money on something that will benefit me better then spend less and it sucks in the long run.

[IanGT99]

I'm surprised Bob hasn't gotten on this one yet... lol

There are really only two ways to go when you're getting a CAI...either make your own or pay big bucks and wait a while to receive a Dr. Speed or APOC. Those two look nice and don't require much work to install. Building your own is fun and just as effective as the others if you do it right.

[ram444]

i think no matter what you do, a after market intake wil be better than the stock intake. The stock intake does not get as much mass airflow than a cia..

[IanGT99]

Yeah, anything is better than stock. Whoever designed the intakes for the 99-04 GT's should be drug out into the street and shot numerous times. Even if you buy a good filter, short piece of 3" tubing and a coupler and just make a WAI, you'll see tons of improvement. Now, with it being so cold out, I may just make my CAI into a WAI until it gets warmer. I don't really need an extra couple horses when I'm going 4.6 mph on ice...

[Ronin]

a) is this the cable of the mass flow sensor?
http://www.darkbring.de/intake.jpg

b) what am i going to do with this thingie if i install a CAI? will the cai be installed at the throttle body?

c) do i have to cut out metal parts at the car?

d) does anyone have experiences with bigger throtle bodys like this one?
http://www.pfyc.com/store/graphics/new/ga3013.jpg

questions about questions ^-^

[customcarsff]

i did a custom ram air on my gt. i removed all the ram air piping made a custom straight piping towards the throttle body then i put on a short ram air intake from my throttle body leaving the open coned filter right next to the drop off from the ram air from the nostrils. i dont know if i'm explaining it good enough its hard to explain. all the air through the nostris with straight piping go's to the area right infront of the coned filter so that way it absorbs all that air and can allways take more air from around it.

[Ridenour]

Ronin, to answer all your stuff

A - yes that is the cable.

B - It will remain there. And No, the CAI will hook right up to the outer side of your MAF. If, however, you get Doctor Speed's stage III CAI, the rubber hose between the MAF and your TB will be replaced with smooth, pre-drilled metal. But any other CAI can be hooked right up to the outerside of your MAF

C - I hear RSM's 62 mm TB is great, but they're out of stock right now. You'll probably also need to get your upper intake manifold match ported so that they meet up nice and smooth with no turbulance

[Ronin]

wow thx ridenour.

i think the stage 3 cai is the piece i want :)

ah. what is "to get your upper intake manifold ported"? i don't understand it, and my dictionary doesn't help me there.

lots of thx

[Ridenour]

No problem Ronin

lol yeh stage 3 is the way to go

when I talked about "to get upper intake manifold ported" this is what I meant:

Your throttle body flows into your upper intake manifold, which flows air into the the lower intake manifold, which flows air into your cylinder. If you get a bigger throttle body, then you need to get a "ported upper intake manifold" matched to your 62 mm throttle body. A ported/matched upper intake manifold will make sure that the air flowing from your throttle body doesn't get slowed down by hitting turbulence cause by the parts not matching up.

Basically, if you get a 62 mm throttle body, then you need to get a upper intake manifold with a 62 mm opening, or else it will cause turbulence and slow down your air flow - and you won't be able to get the full benefits of having a bigger throttle body.

[Ronin]

ah i see. sounds consequentially to me. i will keep that in mind if santa brings me enough to change not only the intake but the throttle body, too :)

my task in the coming days is to find the pcm and the number on it for the dhp reprogram*laughs*

without doing something the 3.4 is really decent. but gladly there is a lot of potencial.

btw: i love this sound someone from the board attached here.
www.darkbring.de/roar.wmv
sometimes i even have it in repeat mode here XD
i hope some time mine will sound like that, too....

bye and happy holidays - (am going home in the seasons)

Ronin

[Jim Boner]

Hello everyone new to the forum. Where could I find a ported polished intake manifole that would match the 62mm throttle body? Would that have to be a machine shop deal(aka coustom job). Thanks for any help.
Jeremy

[Ridenour]

RSM racing ( www.rsmracing.com ) makes a UIM that matches the 62 mm TB, Jim

[Ronin]

can anyone explain "core charge" for me? what is core charge?

Ported Upper and Lower Intake Manifolds (rsmracing)
$280.00 + $150.00 Core Charge

sorry for beeing a baka ;)

[Pipelayaz]

can anyone explain "core charge" for me? what is core charge?

Ported Upper and Lower Intake Manifolds (rsmracing)


sorry for beeing a baka ;)

You send RSM the amount the part is and also the core charge. What you will do is when you get the new part you send your old part to RSM and you get Store credit of the amount you paid for the core charge. Now Core charges with other companys such as doctor speed will just send you your money back.... but up front you will have to pay the amount the part is and also the core charge...if you just look up FAQ's or the stores policy they will have a better description of the core charge rules.

[Ridenour]

A core charge is this:
When you recieve your part, you need to send the old one back in, so the company has parts to make new ones for new customers with. You pay 150 dollars when you order your part (so you'll pay 430 dollars total) - after you get your part, you send the old one into the company, and then you get your money refunded. If you don't send your old one in, they just keep your money. The purpose of the Core Charge is to allow them to get parts to make new parts for other customers with.

[Ronin]

ah i see.

thats great! thank you very much.

btw: merry xmas

[Pipelayaz]

A core charge is this:
When you recieve your part, you need to send the old one back in, so the company has parts to make new ones for new customers with. You pay 150 dollars when you order your part (so you'll pay 430 dollars total) - after you get your part, you send the old one into the company, and then you get your money refunded. If you don't send your old one in, they just keep your money. The purpose of the Core Charge is to allow them to get parts to make new parts for other customers with.

yeah jus like i said... :loser

[Ridenour]

Sorry Pipelayaz - I posted at the same time you did - I wasn't trying to one-up you or anything - it was just it freak accident.

[Ronin]

thank both of you!

i am really glad you helped me out there!

btw: santa gave her a new DHP pcm and the stage 3 cai (just ordered). i'm really looking forward receiving the parts ^--------^ it's my first own modification on the alero :)

ureshii !!!

[02GAGTinprogres]

i have a large APC cone filter with custom rubber coupplers strait to the MAF...the bottom half of the stock air box is there...i noticed performance gains and a respectable throaty noise...the bottom of the box is also there because my car is under warranty and it would void everything to let them see it removed....i carry the rest of the stock pieces in my trunk..anyone seen this setup before...and how can i improve while still under warranty?

[Ridenour]

Remove your intake resonator ( the tube that goes from the bottom of the airbox down into the wheel well) and cut it off, so that it ends just after it enters the wheel well. This will reduce lag and result in faster air flow coming through it, but to anyone who works on the car, it will still look like it's stock.

[SilverSurferGT]

I took out that piece of tubing. But I also took out the piece of piping that goes to the headlight. That's okay right?

[Ridenour]

Yes, remove the entire intake resonator. But leave the L shaped part that attaches at the air box - It'll make it look like it goes down into the wheel well. You know, the little bend piece that attaches to the bottom of the airbox, it looks like
...................|
....//====== airbox
...// Piece |
// //====__________
====

I had to add the periods to make the lines stay where I wanted them

[SilverSurferGT]

took that out so theres jus the hole in the airbox...i think i still have the piece if its necessary to keep there

[XtremeGaGt00]

for the ram air to actually work too, i mean to get boost pressures it kicks in at like 412 m.p.h. havent seen a g.a do that, maybe someone can test that???,,haha have fun

[averagewhiteboy]

It's not really "ram air". It was ram air on the Trans Am's becasue the throttle body was right behind it. It was a great idea. However, the 3.4 throttle body is on the side, thus it's not ramming much of anything...

[Ridenour]

You're about 5 months too late.

[ChrisB]

You're about 5 months too late.


Classic! :thumbs:

[ViperGTSR]

thats ur average white boy for ya, dumb as a brick

[ChrisB]

I have a question I couldn't find on my search...buggin me for a while...I looked at the Aztec 3400 specs in my Car and Driver a while back and the HP is 185....in an Aztec! Whats up with that? Is it because of tunning, exhaust,bogus numbers? I mean if thats the case then why the hell would GM tune the GA for 175 WITH RAM AIR???? Anybody know?
Off topic but hey at least it's current....
thanks

[ViperGTSR]

IIRC the exhaust manifolds are a little better alowing for better flow...or something stupid only GM would do

[SilverSurferGT]

Wouldn't it also have to do with power/weight ratio...Is the Aztec heavier than a GA moreso that it needs a little extra power to help it get up and go?

[ViperGTSR]

what the hell does that have to do with the output of the engine? theres no law that says u need a certain amount of hp in a car if its heavier...

[SilverSurferGT]

I'm just saying they might have tuned it up to give it some extra power to move...175hp on the GA was deemed appropriate I suppose and since the Aztec is heavier I'm guessing the extra 10 horses could help it get up and go a little quicker because of the extra weight. u kno what i mean?