ABS and traction control, usless and dangerous? [Archive] - GrandAmGT.com Forum

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[ChaosweaveR]
11-24-2009, 09:07 PM
Okay, had a ridiculous arguement on another forum I'm apart of. Apparently according to two "highly experienced drivers", any sort of safety aid, ABS, traction control, and stability control, just give a false sense of security, have no use, make the car more dangerous to drive (lol) and only people who have 0 driving skills need them. Then again, these two put themselves on such a high pedistal, of course they're right and everyone else was wrong. /sarcasim

Now, what do you folks think? I know the majority of you have a lot more know how and common sense than these two fools. Let loose your knowledge.

2000 GT Coupe
11-25-2009, 12:04 AM
I do think they instill a false sense of safety, the system can fail, and as a driver that drives with out them can tell you if you mash that stop pedal too hard your wheels lock and you have no control, if you so used to the car keeping that from happening you can certainly crash.
Given that I do like the extra control those systems can give when used correct.

AaronGTR
11-25-2009, 06:50 AM
Obviously they have their limits and aren't a cure all.... if you drive stupidly enough you can still crash with them. Anyone who has any decent driving skills understands this though. They can compensate for it and use those things to their advantage. And anyone who thinks their driving skills are so great they have to brag about them, is a tool and probably can't drive for ****. And for most people with no car control skills, ABS etc is definitely safer because they don't know how to not lock up their wheels in a panic stop. It's been scientifically proven over and over again. A car with ABS can stop faster than a car without.

Panacea
11-25-2009, 08:06 AM
Yep, proven that ABS will stop you faster than the best driver in the world. It's impossible for a human to push the brake pedal as fast as teh ABS system applies the brakes.

I agree that they give the false sense of security, but they do help. However, give the best tools to an unexperienced person and they'll make a mess of things.

[ChaosweaveR]
11-25-2009, 10:12 AM
But what made me go "WTF" was when the guy said he'd rather have all the wheels lock up because it is much safer to control the car in a four wheel lockup slide. Lulz. And that a car with ABS will take much more distance to stop than a car with all the wheels locked up. He's rather full of himself, so of course he's better than everyone.

Panacea
11-25-2009, 10:47 AM
;1103534']But what made me go "WTF" was when the guy said he'd rather have all the wheels lock up because it is much safer to control the car in a four wheel lockup slide. Lulz. And that a car with ABS will take much more distance to stop than a car with all the wheels locked up. He's rather full of himself, so of course he's better than everyone.

He probably believes seatbelts don't save lives either.

You sure he's not just messing with everyone?

cardude007617
11-25-2009, 11:51 AM
i dont know about you guys, maybe its just my younger age (iv never owned a car without ABS, and only driven a few without it at work in snowy conditions), but its nice to not have to think about wheels locking up and sliding uncontrollably into a ditch/car when doing a panic stop in a blizzard. i think some of the other systems out today are sort of silly, but its fairly hard to say ABS is just overall a bad thing.

my parents still think they should pump the pedal even with ABS lol.

[ChaosweaveR]
11-25-2009, 02:01 PM
He probably believes seatbelts don't save lives either.

You sure he's not just messing with everyone?

No, he's serious. Very sad actually.

If anything, go look for yourselves on my site. Beware, he just **** talks.
www.avantgardeautogroup.com

His sn is GrEmLiN. Look in the general discussion section, thread tittled "Anyone Can Read ABS codes?" Or something similar? It's about a hub bearing issue on a Saturn. He always loves to one up me. Enjoy the lulz.

AaronGTR
11-25-2009, 04:32 PM
;1103534']But what made me go "WTF" was when the guy said he'd rather have all the wheels lock up because it is much safer to control the car in a four wheel lockup slide. Lulz. And that a car with ABS will take much more distance to stop than a car with all the wheels locked up. He's rather full of himself, so of course he's better than everyone.

;1103579']No, he's serious. Very sad actually.

If anything, go look for yourselves on my site. Beware, he just **** talks.
www.avantgardeautogroup.com

His sn is GrEmLiN. Look in the general discussion section, thread tittled "Anyone Can Read ABS codes?" Or something similar? It's about a hub bearing issue on a Saturn. He always loves to one up me. Enjoy the lulz.


I didn't see the thread. This guy sounds so stupid I almost want to join up just to tell him to stop misinforming people... but I'm not gonna. I'll reply here though and feel free to quote me in that thread if you want.

Locking up all four wheels is the dumbest most dangerous thing you can do! When that happens you don't have any control at all. While the wheels are still turning (ie what the ABS does) you can still steer and control the car. And a car braking with it's wheel at the limit of locking up will always stop faster than a car whose wheels have locked up and is sliding. Scientific fact!

I read an article in sport compact car about tires and how they work. The most important thing is the scientific properties of rubber and the fact it is the only substance that is viscous and elastic and yet retains it's shape. While the tire is bending and flexing as it spins around, the surface of the rubber that comes in contact with the road actually flows into the surface texture of the pavement and creates friction which gives you grip. The amount of grip is dependent on the surface area of the tire and the weight (or pressure) applied to it. If the pressure from the side (steering or cornering) or the pressure from front or back (accelerating/braking) becomes too much for the amount of friction you have (grip) then the tire starts to slide. Once that happens it stops flowing into the surface and the friction coefficient drops below the maximum level. In plain english... when your tires lock up you have less grip.

[ChaosweaveR]
11-25-2009, 05:44 PM
Seriously, join up and tell him. The thread was actually deleted out (he said it "looked bad" rofl) he's such a pompous ass, I would love to see you put him in his place BADLY.

plastic_indian
11-25-2009, 06:26 PM
I read an article in sport compact car about tires and how they work. The most important thing is the scientific properties of rubber and the fact it is the only substance that is viscous and elastic and yet retains it's shape. While the tire is bending and flexing as it spins around, the surface of the rubber that comes in contact with the road actually flows into the surface texture of the pavement and creates friction which gives you grip. The amount of grip is dependent on the surface area of the tire and the weight (or pressure) applied to it. If the pressure from the side (steering or cornering) or the pressure from front or back (accelerating/braking) becomes too much for the amount of friction you have (grip) then the tire starts to slide. Once that happens it stops flowing into the surface and the friction coefficient drops below the maximum level. In plain english... when your tires lock up you have less grip.

A good plain-English explanation of this can be found in Herb Adams' book "Chassis Engineering" where the "circle of traction" concept is discussed.

AaronGTR
11-25-2009, 09:53 PM
Yeah, I've heard of the circle of traction concept before. It's a good way of explaining handling but it's really related more to fast driving and being able to balance steering, side load, acceleration, and braking with the amount of available traction. It's only indirectly related to the topic of how the rubber in the tire actually works. The basic point is that once the tire starts to slide it's grip is less than when the tire is rolling and you lose the ability to really control the car.

AaronGTR
11-25-2009, 09:55 PM
;1103605']Seriously, join up and tell him. The thread was actually deleted out (he said it "looked bad" rofl) he's such a pompous ass, I would love to see you put him in his place BADLY.

Well, if it's his forum, or he at least has moderator powers enough to delete threads, he'd probably just delete any threads I made and ban me. No need for me to waste my time. I don't really get my jollies off by searching out idiots on the internet to prove them wrong. ;) Got better things to do.

[ChaosweaveR]
11-25-2009, 10:11 PM
Actually the dude isn't a mod, he asked for the thread to be deleted by someone else. I'm a mod over there Aaron, he isn't. You'd teach him a thing or too. He's some 20 year old who thinks he grew up in 1969, and needs a wake up call.

Alas, if you don't want to, I can't force ya. lol

oldschoolguy
11-25-2009, 10:13 PM
The basic point is that once the tire starts to slide it's grip is less than when the tire is rolling and you lose the ability to really control the car.

Thats just the difference between static and kinetic friction. It works with anything. If you have a block on a board and you tilt it, you'll need to tilt it a long ways to get it moving, and then once its moving you can lower the board past the point where the block started to slide and it will keep sliding

himfanzach
11-26-2009, 12:23 AM
Skimed but do agree with false sense some people do count on them as a cure all. Now i never really used them other then snow braking I hate traction contol stability control in nice but here the problem most of us are accumsted to these what happens when we drive a car that doesn't have this and don't relize till to late!!

Malaclypse
11-26-2009, 01:11 PM
The biggest problem with people who drive these days is that the majority of them lack sufficient knowledge to actually control a vehicle during emergency situations.

Driver's Ed is so lacking its ridiculous... Driving is looked upon as a right in the United states instead of a privelidge. There should be a car control and awareness test that should have to be passed in order to drive.

The only issue with that is that american cities are so spread out that public transit doesn't work. That or it's too costly a program to support without charing patrons an arm and a leg.

Sigh... Guess people who actually know how to drive are doomed.

AaronGTR
11-27-2009, 05:01 PM
They should have a drivers training program like they have in Finland. I saw them talking about it on an episode of Top Gear. In Finland the kids start driving early and even learn how to race and drift. They have to pass a car control test on a wet skid pad as well. They have to have drivers tests like that since so many of their roads are rural with lots of hills and blind corners and tons of snow and ice in the winter.... regular driving over there is like being in a WRC race.

oldschoolguy
11-27-2009, 06:56 PM
They should have a drivers training program like they have in Finland. I saw them talking about it on an episode of Top Gear. In Finland the kids start driving early and even learn how to race and drift. They have to pass a car control test on a wet skid pad as well. They have to have drivers tests like that since so many of their roads are rural with lots of hills and blind corners and tons of snow and ice in the winter.... regular driving over there is like being in a WRC race.

I'm gonna immigrate lol

Mike Jung
11-27-2009, 07:16 PM
...my parents still think they should pump the pedal even with ABS lol.
:wtf Why would you pump the brakes on purpose ?

You were taught threshold braking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_braking)

I was taught driving before ABS was common ?

lol

PS: Do they still teach/talk about how to threshold brake in driver's ed ?

lone_wolf025
11-27-2009, 11:10 PM
I forget who did this, but one of the big name car magazines (or maybe it was even popular mechanics?) pitted a professional driver against a couple novices on a road course. First runs were done with stability/traction control and ABS. Second runs were done with all the systems turned off. The professional had to fight the stability control at times because the limits he could push the car to handle were beyond the "safety parameters" for the average joe blow driver. First runs went to the novices clocking slightly better. Second runs were night and day difference. The novices had terrible times and braking distances and in some instances nearly ran off the track whereas the pro did much better.

Basically it confirmed what us common sense inflicted folk already know: systems are good for the novice but useless for the pro.

cardude007617
11-27-2009, 11:41 PM
:wtf Why would you pump the brakes on purpose ?

You were taught threshold braking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_braking)

I was taught driving before ABS was common ?

lol

PS: Do they still teach/talk about how to threshold brake in driver's ed ?

haha i dont know, i was taught in drivers ed to use the "plant your foot and let the car/ electronics take over" technique for emergency stops. I do know how to "feel" for that spot just before the ABS kicks in,

we'll see this winter what my parents do when they need to stop quick in the snow. funny part is, my parents have had their 09 forester for almost a year now, and my father still hasn't driven it in snow.

AaronGTR
11-28-2009, 12:47 PM
I forget who did this, but one of the big name car magazines (or maybe it was even popular mechanics?) pitted a professional driver against a couple novices on a road course. First runs were done with stability/traction control and ABS. Second runs were done with all the systems turned off. The professional had to fight the stability control at times because the limits he could push the car to handle were beyond the "safety parameters" for the average joe blow driver. First runs went to the novices clocking slightly better. Second runs were night and day difference. The novices had terrible times and braking distances and in some instances nearly ran off the track whereas the pro did much better.

Basically it confirmed what us common sense inflicted folk already know: systems are good for the novice but useless for the pro.


That isn't 100% accurate though. I've seen magazine tests where even pros could not brake as fast with ABS off compared to a car with ABS. It doesn't matter if you are a professional race driver or not. A human being can not physically react and cycle the brakes as fast as a computer. The one point no one has brought up yet though, and it's a rather important one, is how good the factory ABS and/or traction and stability control systems are tuned. There are major differences between manufacturers and even individual car models in how good their systems work. You can see it in some car shows when they test new cars. Some stability control programs are so good they are almost invisible while they are working. Some you can feel them interfering with your inputs.

A very simple example of this would be comparing a corvette to a grand am. The corvette obviously has better handling and has much better systems. The GA only has traction control and ABS, where the corvette also has stability control and all it's systems work better than in the GA. It's a sports car with a premium price, so GM used higher end equipment and spent a lot more timing testing and programming those systems than they did in the GA. I'm sure they figured in a mass market consumption car like the GA no one would notice or care about the difference.

[ChaosweaveR]
11-29-2009, 03:41 PM
A bit of an update on my old forum:

I got fed up with the garbage, and quit the forum. But I forgot one of them was a member on here, so he was lurking about, checking up on me and made this thread on AGA:

http://avantgardeautogroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=322.msg3069#new

Enjoy. Lulz

AaronGTR
11-29-2009, 06:12 PM
lol that guy is a tool. He's ignoring every bit of scientific testing ever done by every magazine and car company in existence. A properly tuned ABS system can stop faster than any human being can even in dry conditions. THAT is the fact! The problem with threshold braking is knowing when you are there. Most people don't know. Even trained drivers don't really know where the limit is until they've passed it... meaning they've locked the wheels and lost it. Proper ABS can find the threshold and hold it there.

[ChaosweaveR]
11-29-2009, 06:45 PM
I had to deal with him in person, imagine how I feel about what he thinks. I'm glad I don't have to hear it anymore. He lurks on here, but doesn't have the balls to post here.

BTW, I'm always learning something new from you and MJ. lol

2000 GT Coupe
11-29-2009, 07:39 PM
I forget who did this, but one of the big name car magazines (or maybe it was even popular mechanics?) pitted a professional driver against a couple novices on a road course. First runs were done with stability/traction control and ABS. Second runs were done with all the systems turned off. The professional had to fight the stability control at times because the limits he could push the car to handle were beyond the "safety parameters" for the average joe blow driver. First runs went to the novices clocking slightly better. Second runs were night and day difference. The novices had terrible times and braking distances and in some instances nearly ran off the track whereas the pro did much better.

Basically it confirmed what us common sense inflicted folk already know: systems are good for the novice but useless for the pro.

That isn't 100% accurate though. I've seen magazine tests where even pros could not brake as fast with ABS off compared to a car with ABS. It doesn't matter if you are a professional race driver or not. A human being can not physically react and cycle the brakes as fast as a computer. The one point no one has brought up yet though, and it's a rather important one, is how good the factory ABS and/or traction and stability control systems are tuned. There are major differences between manufacturers and even individual car models in how good their systems work. You can see it in some car shows when they test new cars. Some stability control programs are so good they are almost invisible while they are working. Some you can feel them interfering with your inputs.

A very simple example of this would be comparing a corvette to a grand am. The corvette obviously has better handling and has much better systems. The GA only has traction control and ABS, where the corvette also has stability control and all it's systems work better than in the GA. It's a sports car with a premium price, so GM used higher end equipment and spent a lot more timing testing and programming those systems than they did in the GA. I'm sure they figured in a mass market consumption car like the GA no one would notice or care about the difference.

lol that guy is a tool. He's ignoring every bit of scientific testing ever done by every magazine and car company in existence. A properly tuned ABS system can stop faster than any human being can even in dry conditions. THAT is the fact! The problem with threshold braking is knowing when you are there. Most people don't know. Even trained drivers don't really know where the limit is until they've passed it... meaning they've locked the wheels and lost it. Proper ABS can find the threshold and hold it there.
I agree these systems used with common sense are very good. However there is more to it then just how fast the abs system can stop you. If your abs fails and you "plant" your foot as hard as you can your done.
Stability control is another area I think is a problem, if your trying to ride the limits of control the stability control will not let you.
Traction control, if your attempting to get the best take off that system will screw you.
But for normal driving situations they are very good systems.

AaronGTR
11-30-2009, 06:58 AM
Again, that really depends on how the stability control is programmed and varies from car to car.

Panacea
11-30-2009, 08:02 AM
I agree these systems used with common sense are very good. However there is more to it then just how fast the abs system can stop you. If your abs fails and you "plant" your foot as hard as you can your done.
Stability control is another area I think is a problem, if your trying to ride the limits of control the stability control will not let you.
Traction control, if your attempting to get the best take off that system will screw you.
But for normal driving situations they are very good systems.

If the ABS Fails it fails. Nothing you can do about that. If your car is properly maintained you should never have to worry about that. It's a moot point.

Your description of stability control are for people who are trying to autocross. The fact is, the system is set up for real world, every day scenario's, not for people trying to push the limit of their cars. So, your average passenger car will not handle like a sports car, as was mentioned. It's just a fact of life. The fact is, stability control can help prevent an accident and, just like everything, it's not going to work in every situation.

CrimsonGT
11-30-2009, 09:21 AM
I agree ABS is a proven safety fact it will stop faster then non Abs any day of the week simply because ABS does not lock your wheel's up and throw you into a spin. I have owned 2 car's w/o ABS a 70 skylark GS and a 78 F-100 and i can tell you 1st hand that if you stomped on the peddle of either one you was going for a ride. What that slap nut's is not taking to account is the force of all that weight being forced forward it's still going to push you up the road no matter what.

[ChaosweaveR]
11-30-2009, 01:07 PM
I mean, ABS can really save your ass in a freak situation. I almost got hit by a stupid chick in a Cavalier during the summer ( she was at a stop sign, and she darted out in front of me at the last second) and I'm thankful the ABS was there to kick in, after avoiding the car and putting me on the wrong side of the road, I feel the backend of the GA give, I countersteer, and lightly hit the brakes, and I feel the ABS kicking in. The car slides in the other direction, but I hit the brakes harder, and the car straightens as I dabbed the gas. This was on dry pavement. As Aaron said, the computer can compensate better than any person will, racecar driver or not.

2000 GT Coupe
11-30-2009, 01:58 PM
I have had way more experience with non-ABS cars, and have experience with cars with much better abs and stability controls, and because of that I tend to not rely on abs. Though as I have said, and continue to say with plenty of common sense the systems they have are very nice.