Misfiring #3 After LIM swap [Archive] - GrandAmGT.com Forum

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02GT_SkyHigh
02-02-2011, 10:23 PM
this is an addition to my thread here; http://www.grandamgt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84943 . I'm really stuck with this one.

ok new problems. I stared it up this morning, went to a gas station and got a soda then on the way home, i feel the engine stutter during the last turn to my house.
Im having a miss in number 3. I know that cause I can pull that wire and the car still runs the same as if it was still on. All the others make the car almost die.
I keep on fouling out the plug also. I read this story.....
( Lower LIM change now MISSING?? Any opinions... )
So I went down to our local pick n pull place and i find a 2002 3.4L Malibu, So I get 3 injectors off and clean them all thoroughly, took the better looking one and replaced that injector.
Got it all back together about 5 minutes ago and I'm still having the same problem. No. 3 plug is all wet with FUEL not oil.
Im at a loss here any help.

Malaclypse
02-02-2011, 10:27 PM
Check the plug wire boot that shares a coil with #3 to make sure it didn't pop off.

02GT_SkyHigh
02-02-2011, 10:44 PM
Check the plug wire boot that shares a coil with #3 to make sure it didn't pop off.
I have solidly checked each plug and wire. I have tried swapping the plugs around.
If that one was off why would #3 misfire?

AleroB888
02-02-2011, 11:23 PM
Open circuit in the wiring harness @ #3 ignition ? Try to get ohm readings as far upstream in the harness as possible....

02GT_SkyHigh
02-03-2011, 12:49 AM
Open circuit in the wiring harness @ #3 ignition ? Try to get ohm readings as far upstream in the harness as possible....
You believe that it may be in the wiring for that injector?

AleroB888
02-03-2011, 01:13 AM
You believe that it may be in the wiring for that injector?

No, not if the plug is wet with fuel, I was thinking the spark is not being activated, possibly by an open or intermittant circuit...

02GT_SkyHigh
02-03-2011, 09:13 AM
No, not if the plug is wet with fuel, I was thinking the spark is not being activated, possibly by an open or intermittant circuit...

If I pull that wire while the car is on, the idle dosent change and I can clearly see and hear a spark shooting out of the boot.

[ChaosweaveR]
02-03-2011, 09:31 AM
I have a feeling it's not ignition or fuel.

Sounds like you possibly floated a valve. Happened to my GA back in may, cylinder #3 for me as well. Common with 60*V6's in their older age.

Have a compression test done on cylinder #3.

02GT_SkyHigh
02-03-2011, 10:09 AM
;1149169']I have a feeling it's not ignition or fuel.

Sounds like you possibly floated a valve. Happened to my GA back in may, cylinder #3 for me as well. Common with 60*V6's in their older age.

Have a compression test done on cylinder #3.

As I search more and more that what it is pointing too.
Could you tell me exactly what a 'floated valve' is, plz?
And yes Im going to try a compression test today when I can.

[ChaosweaveR]
02-03-2011, 10:40 AM
One of the valves is stuck shut, no air, no combustion.

I really hope you know someone to help with repairs, that's a +$1000. Luckily, I got a helluva deal from a good friend, was only charged $350.

02GT_SkyHigh
02-03-2011, 10:53 AM
;1149173']One of the valves is stuck shut, no air, no combustion.

I really hope you know someone to help with repairs, that's a +$1000. Luckily, I got a helluva deal from a good friend, was only charged $350.

For a Valve job? or just to switch heads? cause I can go back to the mailbu that i got the injectors off of and go rip the head off the back.

Im about to take the rear valve cover off and check the workings of the rockers and what i can see.

I knew this one shoulda waited...:mad:

[ChaosweaveR]
02-03-2011, 11:17 AM
To properly do a valve job, the head needs to come off the block.

I'd be leery of slapping on a head from a junk motor. To boot, Malibus had the LG8 motor, the GA has the LA1. I'd find another LA1 head if you're going to rebuild it.

02GT_SkyHigh
02-03-2011, 12:15 PM
after Removing the back valve cover one of the rockers was just laying there!!! I tq'd them properly and only did an additonal 20* not 30*! MAN WTF, I'm not the type to pass up some crucial process like TQ'ing the rockers! Ummm now what?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00639-20110203-1020.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00638-20110203-1011.jpg

AleroB888
02-03-2011, 12:37 PM
after Removing the back valve cover one of the rockers was just laying there!!! I tq'd them properly and only did an additonal 20* not 30*. Ummm now what?

Were pushrods, etc. marked and re-installed each in their original locations?

02GT_SkyHigh
02-03-2011, 01:13 PM
Were pushrods, etc. marked and re-installed each in their original locations?

Yes they were I used a marked shoe box with holes in it when I took them out. You can also look at the rocker location and tell if its short or long.
I'm #4 to own this car and when I did LIM gaskts the first time, it already had metal frame gaskets in it. I'm thinking that possibly this time when I did the second step of TQ'ing, that the threads had been slightly abused before, cause I know the feel of when I strip a thread and an already striped thread. I got about 10* and the resistance was gone.... Eeeh, Heli-coils are interesting looking..

cutlsp
02-03-2011, 07:23 PM
Ouch that really sucks

02GT_SkyHigh
02-03-2011, 07:27 PM
DONE! What a PITA! I spent $56 on a 10mm 1.5 thread Helicoil set. It has the special tap, the insertion tool, and about 10 coils. Worked like a charm!
Thanks to all for all your help and feedback! Everyone has to learn and the passing of that knowledge is what makes this forum so great!
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00641-20110203-1507.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00643-20110203-1510.jpg

CAPTURED THE SHAVINGS JUST LIKE PLANNED
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00644-20110203-1515.jpg

TAPPING IT OUT
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00646-20110203-1525.jpg

TAPPED AND READY FOR THE HELICOIL
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00647-20110203-1545.jpg

INSERTING THE HELICOIL
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00648-20110203-1546.jpg

RIGHT BEFORE I BROKE THE INSERTION TAB OFF
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00649-20110203-1549.jpg

Malaclypse
02-03-2011, 08:10 PM
Good job on the heli-coil. Hope you used loctite on the outside of it when you installed it. Red would be preferable.

02GT_SkyHigh
02-03-2011, 08:23 PM
Good job on the heli-coil. Hope you used loctite on the outside of it when you installed it. Red would be preferable.

Umm, no loctite.
Nothing in the directions said anything about it. This was my first try at any tap, dye, helicoil action. I guess it makes sense now why I SHOULDA. Damn the instructional vids on youtube they dont use any either.
Not going to stress on it.... Done too much of that the past few days...

Malaclypse
02-03-2011, 09:37 PM
Umm, no loctite.
Nothing in the directions said anything about it. This was my first try at any tap, dye, helicoil action. I guess it makes sense now why I SHOULDA. Damn the instructional vids on youtube they dont use any either.
Not going to stress on it.... Done too much of that the past few days...

You'll be fine. The only possible problem is that the heli-coil may back out if you have to remove the rocker arm bolt again. Hell, sometimes they back out even WITH loctite.

You can completely circumvent that problem by buying one of these: http://www.denlorstools.com/home/dt1/page_2522_125/lisle_lis48500_push_rod_remover.html . One of the best ways to spend $20, in my opinion.

Makes life so much easier. Hell I did an intake on a 3400 Grand Am in 3 hours today and I was taking my time. That tool helped out alot.

02GT_SkyHigh
02-03-2011, 10:18 PM
[QUOTE=Malaclypse;1149201
You can completely circumvent that problem by buying one of these: http://www.denlorstools.com/home/dt1/page_2522_125/lisle_lis48500_push_rod_remover.html . One of the best ways to spend $20, in my opinion.

Makes life so much easier. Hell I did an intake on a 3400 Grand Am in 3 hours today and I was taking my time. That tool helped out alot.[/QUOTE]

Been stuck on that website ever since the page popped up! Yes that would make life way easier when doing any work on the motor. There is tons of other good stuff on there!
I think Ill be fine too. Im going to Reno, NV tomorrow so it better. lol its only like a 3 hour drive.

02GT_SkyHigh
02-04-2011, 05:01 PM
Same problem again!!!! Cylinder 5 this time!!!!
WTFFFFFFFFF
Oh man good thing the Helicoil set I got had 10 Helicoils......
GRrrrr,
Ill post pics as the foking carnage continues.......

02GT_SkyHigh
02-04-2011, 07:42 PM
Yes, Ok well I thought I was frustrated. Then...
Then the F ing Helicoil tap BROKE OFF IN THE BLOCK.
Grrr, I lubed the threads, did 1 turn in, 1/2 turn back.

Could have been in Reno by now... :banghead
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00675-20110204-1727.jpg

Malaclypse
02-04-2011, 08:03 PM
Sorry to say... but you're done, bro.

Unless you can back that thing out and get another tap in there.. you'll be needing a head.

02GT_SkyHigh
02-04-2011, 08:22 PM
Sorry to say... but you're done, bro.

Unless you can back that thing out and get another tap in there.. you'll be needing a head.

Yeah. Im slowly realizing that, Im already hard at work on other pliable options. I got my $57 back.
Are heads similar, like front and back?
Cause it would be easier to pull a head off the front of a 3400 than the back.
Im thinking the 3400 I pulled injectors off of. Gonna get me some head!
If it will fit..

XtremeGaGt00
02-04-2011, 10:45 PM
its possible to get that tap out fyi..ive done it before..ive had to grind down a hardened set of needle nose pliers,,shoved them in the openings on the sides of the tap and spun it out.

02GT_SkyHigh
02-04-2011, 11:02 PM
its possible to get that tap out fyi..ive done it before..ive had to grind down a hardened set of needle nose pliers,,shoved them in the openings on the sides of the tap and spun it out.
Hmm Good idea, I took a old socket driver and made a 'tool' that hooked in all 4 sides. The tap just keeps chipping off shorter.
With what options I'm facing, it may be worth getting a extra set just for this.
cause if I cant get it out within the first 30 mins tomorrow morning, Im taking the head off and I'll take it to a machine shop.

AaronGTR
02-05-2011, 08:11 AM
Dang.... that sucks man. It's very strange that you would have that much trouble with rocker bolts stripping out the heads. I've never had one do that before.

02GT_SkyHigh
02-05-2011, 11:05 AM
I think it is aftermath from my dad trying to 'help me out', he had his mechanic do my LIM gaskets. He cracked both middle ports on the LIM, so I would not put it past him to do some dumb crap like that. My dad has since dumped his ass, due to the fact that I did headgaskets in 14 hours and My dad was charged for 12 hours just for LIM gaskets?
Im not so mad about having to tap them out, where there's a will there's a way, but this, I was not expecting.

Im going to try to dremmel into the middle with a diamond bit and use a easy out, If that doesn't work, the head is going to come off and go into a machine shop.

jeez, fml, at the moment...

Malaclypse
02-05-2011, 01:32 PM
Don't even bother with the dremel. Or an easy-out. If you're going to try anything use a cobalt reverse drill bit. Sometimes that'll bite whatever you're working on and back it out. Problem is the tap has a bite on the head. If it were just a snapped bolt it'd be different.

Your best bet is to pull the head and take it to the machine shop. Save yourself the frustration and risk of making a bad situation even worse.

And to answer your question, yes the front and rear heads are the same. Just go for the same model year if you can. Have it fluxed, decked and cleaned if you're going to install it. 3400 heads crack sometimes when the engines overheat.

02GT_SkyHigh
02-05-2011, 02:03 PM
Don't even bother with the dremel. Or an easy-out. If you're going to try anything use a cobalt reverse drill bit. Sometimes that'll bite whatever you're working on and back it out. Problem is the tap has a bite on the head. If it were just a snapped bolt it'd be different.

Your best bet is to pull the head and take it to the machine shop. Save yourself the frustration and risk of making a bad situation even worse.

And to answer your question, yes the front and rear heads are the same. Just go for the same model year if you can. Have it fluxed, decked and cleaned if you're going to install it. 3400 heads crack sometimes when the engines overheat.

After X,XXX tries, Im done! Nothing will 'bite' this metal its like a carbon steel, and it is very fragile, or pieces just chip off.
I cleaned my garage, organized my tools, made room for parts to come off, and I'm just about to start getting the head off.
ONE MORE question...
I have a gasket for the back head already to go back on.
Since I just installed the LIM gaskets 4 days ago, with the P&P intakes, I should be able to carefully re-use them right? I'll just clean the ridge really good and put more RTV. That should be fine right?

AaronGTR
02-05-2011, 03:52 PM
Yeah, those taps are really hard to do anything with. The metal is very brittle for whatever reason. I would just take the heads off and take it to a machine shop. Or you might want to just get new heads depending on what condition they are in. Your dads mechanic friend may have messed up more threads from the sound of it. Although I have to say 12 hours for the LIM does not sound unreasonable. There is a lot of work to do to get everything off and get to it, and I've taken a long time to do LIM gaskets on cars that had other problems as well. Once you have the LIM off, there is very little left to remove to get the heads off, so an extra couple hours for that is normal. But cracking ports in the LIM is not.

As for re-using gaskets.... head gaskets definitely have to be replaced every time. LIM gaskets, well that's iffy. I wouldn't do it with the oem gaskets, but you might get away with it with felpros. You certainly increase your chance of having a leak by re-using them, but I did it once before and was ok. I only got the engine up to temp once though and didn't do any driving before tearing it back down. The shorter the time they've been on the engine the better.

Malaclypse
02-05-2011, 06:15 PM
Although I have to say 12 hours for the LIM does not sound unreasonable.

I think 12 hours for a lower intake job is highly unreasonable. I work for a dealership and we sell them for half of that. I even add three tenths or so just to cover the oil change and fluid burpings that need to be done.

As for reusing the gaskets, I'm with Aaron. If the engine had only been up to temp once or so... it'd be fine. A couple of days may be fine. However its cheap peace of mind to know that you won't have a leak because you replaced that gasket again while you were in there.

I've re-used intake gaskets many times.. but that's always on cars that don't have coolant running through the intake. In the end its your call.

02GT_SkyHigh
02-05-2011, 06:21 PM
The gaskets just came with the intakes so, there spankin new.
Im trying to be so careful with my head and forceful with that Fing tap.
Ya 12 hours does sound reasonable, but I guess this guy is a master mechanic and has been for 30 yrs...bla blah.
I did headgaskets in 14 hours and that was my first whack at any engine work. (on my grand am, not ever.. lol)
Idk my dad was pissed though about the LIM

Tool I make out of a 1/4 drive extension. (broken)
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00653-20110204-2200.jpg

Heads coming off... 4:03 Cali Time. Gonna trade that Dew for a Brew very soon...
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00657-20110205-1544.jpg

02GT_SkyHigh
02-05-2011, 08:36 PM
OK!
Got the head off, valves, and pistons look good.
Finally, I get to relax tomorrow. Nothing Is open here until
Monday.
I HOPE when I go into the machine shop the guy says, 'Oh, ya, no problem give me 15 minutes!' haha Seeing the glass half-full or half-empty, your choice.

The carnage and NEW gaskets... lol
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00660-20110205-1724.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00665-20110205-1733.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00666-20110205-1747.jpg

Freggin Monkey Butt Nutt Fuuk
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00667-20110205-1747.jpg

Malaclypse
02-05-2011, 08:51 PM
Sigh... I don't know why people unbolt the fuel lines from the rail...

Just remove the 13 holding the bracket on and twist the rail aside.. secure with bungee.

AaronGTR
02-05-2011, 11:00 PM
Yeah, usually it isn't needed, but I have found a few times when it was difficult to get the the injectors out or back in the LIM with the fuel lines still attached. That was actually part of the problem when I did Mac's LIM gaskets and it took me about 12 hours... someone who had worked on the car previously had badly mangled his O-rings on the injectors, so I had to replace all those too. I figured he was getting a vacuum leak, some of them were that bad. Plus there were issues to fix with the EGR and EVAP too if I remember right. There always ends up being a whole bunch of things to fix that I find when working on other peoples cars that I don't have to do on mine, so it ends up taking longer. ;)

02GT_SkyHigh
02-07-2011, 12:10 PM
Note taken, but i needed to be able to close the hood also at night. Live on a way to busy street.
This is the re-placement set I got!

I think it broke for this reason VVV and also the fact the head was still fairly hot when i was tapping it.
The metal expanded at different rates and SNAP!
Im waiting to go to the machine shop (need a ride)
I think Im just going to do the other ones why I have the head off.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00673-20110207-0943.jpg

02GT_SkyHigh
02-07-2011, 09:05 PM
FINALLY ITS OUT!!
I got a good referral and the guy did it in about 15 minutes and I gave him $20 so it worked out sweet! I helicoiled 3 more while I was back there.
Painted my UIM while I was waiting for a ride to the machine shop. I like it a lot!
I need 5 Qts of oil and an O-ring for the fuel rail. Got the LIM set so Ill be ready sor start-up tomorrow

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00675-20110207-1604.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00677-20110207-1859.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00678-20110207-1956.jpg

AleroB888
02-07-2011, 09:19 PM
FINALLY ITS OUT!!
I got a good referral and the guy did it in about 15 minutes and I gave him $20 so it worked out sweet! I helicoiled 3 more while I was back there.



Note the torque specs for LIM are different than what's in the Haynes manual, iirc.....

http://wot-tech.com/shop/cat_66.html

02GT_SkyHigh
02-07-2011, 09:55 PM
Note the torque specs for LIM are different than what's in the Haynes manual, iirc.....

http://wot-tech.com/shop/cat_66.html

Thanks for the note.
I used this one, looked it up right before I set it on and TQ'd it down.
http://wot-tech.com/shop/articles/ported-manifold-torque-specs/cat_105.html

I just want the RTV to set so after oil change and some more work, I'll be good!

02GT_SkyHigh
02-08-2011, 05:56 PM
Finally got it all put back together, then changed the oil topped it off
with some Dex-cool... Yeah yeah, I know. I already had a back-up
Gallon of it, so in it went. When I was putting it all together, I soon
found out that the pulley tensioner threads were done also. I ran a
Helicoil in that one too. VERY very carefully! haha worked great!
I mixed a bead sized amount of JB Weld and rolled the outside of the helicoil
threads to 'help' then stick.
The engine cranked 2-3 seconds then fired RIGHT UP! What a RELEIF! It was nice
knowing some people knew the severity of my situation and I was able to vent on here!
So thanks! I hope this may help someone in the future or could be shown to help people
understand the importance of properly torquing bolts.
Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions and support.
-Skyler

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00680-20110208-1239.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b276/Skyler1356/IMG00681-20110208-1528.jpg