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chris_gt_74
05-08-2012, 10:25 AM
I'm fixing to order the stuff from GM to replace the timing chain on my car that is rattling. I'm doing it for the sound and as piece of mind since I just got heads and new valves. I didn't notice the sound until after I had installed everything of course. It was recommended to me to stay away from the aftermarket chain kits and get the GM stuff for a 99. I'm fine with that, but what I need to know is if I should replace the cam and crank gears to or should the chain and damper do the job?

juanvan
05-08-2012, 11:15 AM
As with Motorcycles you should change the Gears and Chain at the same time b.c they wear the same. The Chain guides also need to be changed while your in there, since they also wear to the chain stretching over time.
How many miles are on the car?

mfuller
05-08-2012, 11:19 AM
Replace the gears with the new chain and damper.

chris_gt_74
05-08-2012, 12:16 PM
As with Motorcycles you should change the Gears and Chain at the same time b.c they wear the same. The Chain guides also need to be changed while your in there, since they also wear to the chain stretching over time.
How many miles are on the car?

Does the 3.4l grand am even have chain guides? I saw no mention of such a part on the website I am buying from. The car has around 100k.

geldartb
05-08-2012, 12:26 PM
it looks like this
http://info.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imagekey=869677&imageurl=http%3A//info.rockauto.com/Cloyes/9-5388.jpg

damper
ACDELCO Part # 24507720

Engine Camshaft Sprocket
24506089

Engine Crankshaft/Timing Sprocket
12568125

chain
24506090

all GM part numbers going by your car which is an 05

juanvan
05-08-2012, 12:30 PM
Def time to update the Chains

chris_gt_74
05-08-2012, 12:53 PM
Yeah I was getting a damper. Just asking if I needed the gears as well. I will be ordering all of it just to be safe.

AaronGTR
05-08-2012, 04:39 PM
If you are changing to the 96-99 chain, then you have to change the cam gear and the crank gear no matter what, because it's a thicker chain and uses different gears. If you stay with the stock chain for your year, you can get away with only replacing the chain and damper IF your gears are in good shape and don't have too many miles on them. It's better to replace them of course, but the crank gear needs some special tools to remove and install. You could also just replace the cam gear if you wanted, as it's a little easier to change and isn't too expensive. If you are planning on going with a bigger cam and stiffer springs in the future, you might want the earlier model chain and gear set, since those will put more load on the timing chain.

chris_gt_74
05-08-2012, 04:48 PM
If you are changing to the 96-99 chain, then you have to change the cam gear and the crank gear no matter what, because it's a thicker chain and uses different gears. If you stay with the stock chain for your year, you can get away with only replacing the chain and damper IF your gears are in good shape and don't have too many miles on them. It's better to replace them of course, but the crank gear needs some special tools to remove and install. You could also just replace the cam gear if you wanted, as it's a little easier to change and isn't too expensive. If you are planning on going with a bigger cam and stiffer springs in the future, you might want the earlier model chain and gear set, since those will put more load on the timing chain.

What kind of tool are we talking here? I know I need a puller for the crank pulley. Also are their any magic ways to keep the cam and crank in time when torquing the cam gear and crank bolt?

chris_gt_74
05-08-2012, 11:06 PM
Can someone confirm these part numbers for me? I'm switching from the 05 timing set to the 99 set because it was suggested to be a bit more robust.


10166352 Chain
10166350 Cam gear
14074400 Crank gear
10166353 Damper

Also which of these gasket kits do I need? One has a sleeve or something. Sorry I've never changed any of this stuff before so I'm full of questions and I want to do it right the first time.

TCS45828
TCS45976

geldartb
05-09-2012, 06:16 AM
Can someone confirm these part numbers for me? I'm switching from the 05 timing set to the 99 set because it was suggested to be a bit more robust.


10166352 Chain
10166350 Cam gear
14074400 Crank gear
10166353 Damper

Also which of these gasket kits do I need? One has a sleeve or something. Sorry I've never changed any of this stuff before so I'm full of questions and I want to do it right the first time.

TCS45828
TCS45976

your good on the timing set part numbers

AaronGTR
05-09-2012, 10:15 PM
What kind of tool are we talking here? I know I need a puller for the crank pulley. Also are their any magic ways to keep the cam and crank in time when torquing the cam gear and crank bolt?


Well, in my manual they have a specific GM part number for a tool they use to remove the crank sprocket, and another one to install it. The pic of the removal tool looks like a basic gear puller. The installation tool is like a threaded rod that screws into the end of the crank shaft, and has a tube that fits over the crank snout with a nut behind it, so you can turn the nut and it pushes the tube and pushes the crank gear evenly down the snout.

The gear is slotted and fits over a key in the crank (which also makes sure it's lined up properly for timing), so it's not actually a press fit, but it may still be tight. They tell you to put engine pre-lube on the crank before pressing it on. I don't know if heating the gear in an oven first to expand the metal would make it easy enough to push on by hand or not. I haven't actually needed to remove mine. I've only replaced the chain, damper, and cam gear.

As for keeping the timing, it's very simple. You install the crank gear and the chain damper first. There is a dimple in the face of one of the crank gear teeth. That is the timing mark. Line that up straight up with the timing mark on the bottom of the damper. The chain has to be put on at the same time as the cam gear because it's a tight fit, so the timing will stay the same once you put it on. There is a notch in the cam gear that fits over the dowel on the end of the camshaft. Position the cam so the dowel is on the right, 90 degrees from the bottom. With the cam gear in the same position, there will be a hole in the gear face at the bottom, in between two of the slots. That is the cam gear timing mark. Hang the chain on the cam gear, then line the chain up on the teeth of the crank gear so that the timing marks will all line up, and slide the cam gear onto the cam over the dowel. Make sure all the marks are lined up and put the cam bolt in, and tighten it to 103 lb ft. You'll need to hold the flywheel with a pry bar or otherwise immobilize the engine to do it. Also make sure to give the chain and both gears a light coating of engine oil when you are done.


For the gasket kits, where did you get those part numbers from, or what brand are you looking at? I tried looking them up but they aren't GM part numbers. I know Fel-pro makes what they call a "conversion gasket set". It comes with gaskets for the front cover, water pump, oil pan, a crank seal for the front cover, and I believe a rear main seal as well. It's made for multiple cars and years so it also comes with a bunch of gaskets and O-rings you won't need, but it's only $27 and if you don't need all those gaskets now, you can save them in case you need 'em for future repairs. :thumbs:

chris_gt_74
05-09-2012, 10:53 PM
The 2 part numbers are both Fel-Pro gasket sets. They are the same except for one has a repair sleeve and loctite as far as I can see. The part number's are from Orielly's.

These are the included gaskets and it's super cheap at a whopping $8.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll234/grand_am_gt_74/download.jpg

Several searches said you can use a large socket or an appropriately sized piece of pipe with a big washer on the end and use the crank bolt to push the crank gear back on. I guess I'm just going to see what I can come up with when I actually go to install it or see if I can rent a tool.

Actually if push comes to shove I may just buy a new harmonic balancer. They have one for $60.

locoman99
05-09-2012, 11:43 PM
if your gears look good and you dont need to change them. Gears should out last 2 chains if it has been well lubricated and not ran with a loose chain for too long it should be good. A chain stretches that wears the gears which causes the chain too get even looser. If the lands of the gear are true, you are good. If you have the budget and time to change them, of course do it.

chris_gt_74
05-10-2012, 12:04 AM
if your gears look good and you dont need to change them. Gears should out last 2 chains if it has been well lubricated and not ran with a loose chain for too long it should be good. A chain stretches that wears the gears which causes the chain too get even looser. If the lands of the gear are true, you are good. If you have the budget and time to change them, of course do it.

Well with me switching to the 99 chain I have to change the gears according to what I've heard. Besides if I'm in there I may as well get all new parts.

locoman99
05-10-2012, 01:17 AM
Well with me switching to the 99 chain I have to change the gears according to what I've heard. Besides if I'm in there I may as well get all new parts.

is it enough of an upgrade to go through the trouble...i havent really heard of a weakness issue or failure issues with later ones..am i missing something? I have not really looked into it alot to be honest. So what makes a 2000 up chain better in the real world (n/a engine) than later sets? Some times the "in theory" upgrades are the biggest waste of time and money.

chris_gt_74
05-10-2012, 07:58 AM
is it enough of an upgrade to go through the trouble...i havent really heard of a weakness issue or failure issues with later ones..am i missing something? I have not really looked into it alot to be honest. So what makes a 2000 up chain better in the real world (n/a engine) than later sets? Some times the "in theory" upgrades are the biggest waste of time and money.

I don't know really. I was told by Ben and a couple of other members that the 99 chain was more robust.

AaronGTR
05-10-2012, 03:38 PM
The 2 part numbers are both Fel-Pro gasket sets. They are the same except for one has a repair sleeve and loctite as far as I can see. The part number's are from Orielly's.

These are the included gaskets and it's super cheap at a whopping $8.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll234/grand_am_gt_74/download.jpg

Several searches said you can use a large socket or an appropriately sized piece of pipe with a big washer on the end and use the crank bolt to push the crank gear back on. I guess I'm just going to see what I can come up with when I actually go to install it or see if I can rent a tool.

Actually if push comes to shove I may just buy a new harmonic balancer. They have one for $60.

Yeah, I usually search for gaskets on advance auto parts website since they are close to me, and they don't show those gasket sets from fel-pro. All they show is the top end stuff and then the complete bottom end. Either way, all you really need is the paper gasket for the front cover, and if they have the crank seal for the front cover you can replace that too. It can be a b!tch to get in and out, but it's easier if the cover is off. Remember to spray the paper gasket with some gasket sealer spray. I use the red high tack stuff from Permatex.

For installing the gear, I definitely would NOT use the crank bolt. I thought about using a pipe or socket to fit over the crank, but the problem is you need a bolt that will seat fully in the crank first and then have a nut to turn down. You don't want to try and draw it in with the bolt. Many people have tried to do this with their crank pulleys and stripped the threads out on their crank shaft and junked them! It's a special fine pitch thread and will strip easily if you don't have a lot of threads holding the force, which is why you need a bolt fully seated. It's an odd thread size too that you can't just find in the store. Has to be special ordered, hence the special tool. Some autoparts stores have crank balancer puller/installer tools that you can rent. I would get one of those. It has the correct bolt, along with a drive nut and the special thrust bearing to make it turn smooth. Might still need a piece of pipe to drive, but it will do the trick.

is it enough of an upgrade to go through the trouble...i havent really heard of a weakness issue or failure issues with later ones..am i missing something? I have not really looked into it alot to be honest. So what makes a 2000 up chain better in the real world (n/a engine) than later sets? Some times the "in theory" upgrades are the biggest waste of time and money.

Yes, if you are running a high lift cam and stiffer valves springs, it's a good upgrade. They place a lot more load on the chain. The 2000 and up chain and gears where made thinner for less internal friction and weight, probably for fuel mileage purposes. The chain stretches out more easily though with the extra load and could break. At least one person has destroyed their engine from running a big cam and a higher red line with the late model timing set. His chain jumped off the gears at a 6500rpm shift and he broke a bunch of pistons and valves. The '99 and earlier timing set is thicker and stronger. It's not a huge improvement, but it's the best insurance available since there currently aren't any of the double roller timing sets from TCE available and they take more work to install. You have to machine spots on the inside of the front cover and the front of the block for it to fit.

chris_gt_74
05-10-2012, 05:44 PM
Anyone have a part number for this installer tool that works with our LA1? Or knows the exact thread size and pitch of the bolt?

AaronGTR
05-10-2012, 07:19 PM
There is a GM part number for the installer, but the only place that will have one is a GM dealership and they won't rent it out to you. The crank pulley installer is a universal tool that comes in a kit that you can rent at some places, and it doesn't have a part number. There are probably a couple different brands. I don't remember who made the one I rented from advance auto. I used to know what the thread for the crank was too but forgot. It was on the inside of the tool kit next to the threaded adapter that fit my crank. lol

chris_gt_74
05-10-2012, 07:27 PM
There is a GM part number for the installer, but the only place that will have one is a GM dealership and they won't rent it out to you. The crank pulley installer is a universal tool that comes in a kit that you can rent at some places, and it doesn't have a part number. There are probably a couple different brands. I don't remember who made the one I rented from advance auto. I used to know what the thread for the crank was too but forgot. It was on the inside of the tool kit next to the threaded adapter that fit my crank. lol

LOL. I am hoping someone has an old crank laying around or a bolt they can measure. If it's a half ass common thread and pitch I'm thinking maybe I can locate a long enough one and use a bolt and a socket. I have no idea if it will work though.

AaronGTR
05-10-2012, 07:47 PM
I can tell you right now it's not a common thread and pitch. I took my crank bolt to lowes to try and find something in the hardware section because I wanted to make my own crank pulley installer instead of having to rent or buy one all the time... they didn't have anything even close. It's a specialized metric thread pitch.

If a common metric thread is an M12 x1.75, this would have been like an M12 x1.0 (not saying that's the size, just as an example). It was a shallower and finer thread than what is normally available. You'd have to order it from an online/specialty fastener company.

chris_gt_74
05-10-2012, 07:58 PM
So I'm wondering if this can be fashioned to install the gear? http://www.handsontools.com/Kent-Moore-J-29113-Installer-Spring-ocket-_p_6254.html

HOYS
05-10-2012, 08:13 PM
I've never had to use a tool to install the gear onto the crank, it should slide on and off no problems.

chris_gt_74
05-10-2012, 08:21 PM
I've never had to use a tool to install the gear onto the crank, it should slide on and off no problems.

Maybe I'll be lucky and not have problems.

AaronGTR
05-11-2012, 05:48 AM
It might slide on and off that easy, but if GM lists a special pair of tools to remove and install it in the service manual, then I would say it isn't "supposed" to be that loose. ;)

geldartb
05-11-2012, 11:50 AM
I've never had to use a tool to install the gear onto the crank, it should slide on and off no problems.

the 99 and older ones are pressed on. the 05 stuff that was on my motor was a slide of setup.

HOYS
05-11-2012, 12:08 PM
the 99 and older ones are pressed on. the 05 stuff that was on my motor was a slide of setup.

Ahhh, that would explain it.

chris_gt_74
05-11-2012, 04:05 PM
the 99 and older ones are pressed on. the 05 stuff that was on my motor was a slide of setup.

Hmm so if that's the case my old one should come right off but what about the 99 style gear going on my 05 crank? Will it have to pressed on or will it slide on easily?

geldartb
05-11-2012, 05:31 PM
it's been a few years since i put mine on but i think i just used a big socket and a bigger bolt to drive the sprocket on.

you don't want to hammer it on.

AaronGTR
05-11-2012, 06:50 PM
You could also try like I said and heat the gear up in the oven for a while to expand the metal and make it go on easier. Warm it up good and lube the crank up good and it might go on easy. It's worth a shot, and if that doesn't work then you can look at other options.

chris_gt_74
05-13-2012, 10:45 AM
I picked this up really cheap to have just in case.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KENT-MOORE-J-29113-HARMONIC-BALANCER-INSTALLER-SH253?item=360453977322&cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D4%26po%3D LVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8389899427371802862#ht_239 8wt_1037

It is the same as this one here with the exception of not have the roller bearing which I can probably substitute for a couple of big washers.

http://60degreev6.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3573&d=1268280235

AaronGTR
05-13-2012, 12:10 PM
Yeah, something like that would probably work. The thrust bearing makes it smoother, especially if you have something really stiff to press on... sometimes getting the damper hub through a new front cover seal can be hard... but you could probably do it with a couple big washers too. A little light oil on the threads and between the washers would help.

Only thing is, are you sure that tool will work on our crank? I didn't see a thread size listed anywhere in that auction. Only a tool number, and that tool number doesn't match the one in my GM manual. Mine calls for a J 39344, but doesn't specify a brand. I don't know if Kent Moore is just an aftermarket brand for the same tool or what. Anyway I hope it fits. It would certainly be a nice tool to have.

chris_gt_74
05-13-2012, 12:19 PM
Yeah, something like that would probably work. The thrust bearing makes it smoother, especially if you have something really stiff to press on... sometimes getting the damper hub through a new front cover seal can be hard... but you could probably do it with a couple big washers too. A little light oil on the threads and between the washers would help.

Only thing is, are you sure that tool will work on our crank? I didn't see a thread size listed anywhere in that auction. Only a tool number, and that tool number doesn't match the one in my GM manual. Mine calls for a J 39344, but doesn't specify a brand. I don't know if Kent Moore is just an aftermarket brand for the same tool or what. Anyway I hope it fits. It would certainly be a nice tool to have.

I don't know but according to their website it lists 2.8L, 3.1L, 3100, 3.4L V-6 as being compatible. I'll let everyone know when I get it if it fits or not.

chris_gt_74
05-16-2012, 12:21 PM
Well I got the tool in today. It's much bigger than the pics made it look. I'll let ya'll know if it works or not so if anyone wants one there is still one on Ebay for cheap. Here's a pic.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll234/grand_am_gt_74/IMG_20120516_131447.jpg

geldartb
05-17-2012, 04:58 AM
damn it looked like a regular sized bolt in the other pic.

chris_gt_74
05-17-2012, 05:31 AM
damn it looked like a regular sized bolt in the other pic.

I know lol it was a poor representation in this other pics.

AaronGTR
05-17-2012, 03:16 PM
Yeah, I knew it would be pretty big. The ones in the kits I've rented have all been pretty large bolts. They really have to be. Anyway, let us know if it works.

chris_gt_74
05-17-2012, 08:47 PM
Yeah, I knew it would be pretty big. The ones in the kits I've rented have all been pretty large bolts. They really have to be. Anyway, let us know if it works.

Well it worked great for putting on the harmonic balancer. It could really use that roller bearing though. I think it would turn better and with a little less effort. I didn't need it for the crank gear though. My one that came off wasn't press fitted but the 99 one was. I ended up taking your advice and heated it up with a propane torch for a few minutes and it slid right on. So the car is back together and sounds way better. Now I just hear a little valve train noise and those loud ass injectors and possibly a smaller header leak somewhere lol. I'm giving it a little time to see if I have any leaks develop. I'm hoping not though. If I develop one I'm putting my money on it being around the oil pan since I didn't drop the pan. But I did use a fair amount of rtv on the corners so we shall see.

Side note, installing a harmonic balancer is a pain in the ass! Torquing it down is even more of a pain in the ass lol. If it wasn't for that damn thing a timing chain change would be a piece of cake.

chris_gt_74
02-03-2013, 10:21 PM
Not sure if I'll be using it again anytime soon but I bought a bearing for the tool so it should be a bit smoother to use now. Anyone interested there is one on Ebay for $30. Here's the link. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5468.m570.l1313&_nkw=j+29113&_sacat=0&_from=R40

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll234/grand_am_gt_74/20130203_231506_zps4a479cef.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll234/grand_am_gt_74/20130203_231432_zpse54d4e18.jpg

AaronGTR
02-03-2013, 10:38 PM
Nice. Were did you get the thrust bearing from?


I might pick one of those up. For as many times as I've had to rent an installer kit from the auto parts store... it would be worth it. I have a puller, but not the special bolt for installing. The entire kit with all the adapters for different cars is like $130 or more. Might as well get one of these for $30 instead.

chris_gt_74
02-03-2013, 10:53 PM
I got it from here http://sdp-si.com/eStore/PartDetail.asp?Opener=Order&PartID=53531&GroupID=20&Qty=0 It was just shy of $22 but their shipping prices suck lol.

I will add that the tool recommends high pressure grease on the threads.. whatever that is. I'm actually trying to determine the nut size since when I used mine last the only grease I had was bearing grease and while cleaning it up the nut has some thread curling. It still turns smoothly but seems kinda loose so I may have damaged the threads in the nut thus why I'm looking for a spare nut just in case. I believe it is a 7/8's nut but can't say for sure.

kzulfic
02-03-2013, 11:42 PM
Take the bolt to the hardware store they'll have a thread index there to tell the thread size and length. If not then just start spinning some nuts on and see which one fits. Be sure to get the same grade or stronger since you had some thread curling. The nut should have some markings on it to tell what grade it is.

You can also run a tap through it and clean up the threads a little bit and it should be fine, but a nut will be cheaper than a tap if you don't have one already.

chris_gt_74
02-04-2013, 04:31 PM
Yeah a tap and die are out of the question lol. They are around $50 apiece. I have done all the measuring and everything and I'm fairly certain it's a 7/8 - 9. I'll have to pick one up to be sure.

AaronGTR
02-04-2013, 05:02 PM
Take the bolt to the hardware store they'll have a thread index there to tell the thread size and length. If not then just start spinning some nuts on and see which one fits. Be sure to get the same grade or stronger since you had some thread curling. The nut should have some markings on it to tell what grade it is.

You can also run a tap through it and clean up the threads a little bit and it should be fine, but a nut will be cheaper than a tap if you don't have one already.


Won't work. Both the thread size for the part that threads into the crank and the part with the nut on it are much larger than any bolts typically carried at hardware stores. Also the threads for the crank bolt are a special pitch metric thread. It's not something standard that is stocked most places. You'd have to order it over the internet or go to a specialty store. I know, I've tried to find it.

kzulfic
02-04-2013, 05:12 PM
Won't work. Both the thread size for the part that threads into the crank and the part with the nut on it are much larger than any bolts typically carried at hardware stores. Also the threads for the crank bolt are a special pitch metric thread. It's not something standard that is stocked most places. You'd have to order it over the internet or go to a specialty store. I know, I've tried to find it.

Ah, I see. Maybe fastenal could help him.

chris_gt_74
02-04-2013, 05:14 PM
Yeah the bolt/tool itself is fine. It seems to be much harder metal. The curling is on the threads of the large nut part. It has 9 threads per inch and falls into the min/max dimensions of a 7/8's nut so that is where I'm gonna start.