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03black
01-02-2013, 03:21 PM
hello, i am new here, i did use the search function and did not find what i was looking for.

What is the difference between MP racing's cold air intake and a $30 cold air intake from ebay? mp's is 160 dollars and a fenderwell intake from ebay is 30 bucks.. i have the ebay one on my alero but i don't really want to skimp on quality when it comes to my grand am.

young gun
01-02-2013, 03:38 PM
and you didn't text me for this...

Get this. http://www.ebay.com/itm/99-05-GRAND-AM-ALERO-3-4-3-4L-V6-COLD-AIR-INTAKE-KIT-3p-/370483410127?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3AGrand+Am&hash=item56428834cf&vxp=mtr

Same thing I have that I got 3 years ago except they don't use k&n's anymore. And don't EVER buy from MP racing. I'm not sure they are even a company anymore so you'll just end up losing your money. WOT-Tech or Milzy

03black
01-02-2013, 03:48 PM
done and done! next step is a flowmaster 80 :)

DrFabulous
01-02-2013, 03:51 PM
MPR used to be a great place, not sure what happened.

I had a fabbed-up old Civic intake on my old ride, it worked just fine. No need to go all out... although, I would spend the money on a decent filter.

03black
01-02-2013, 03:53 PM
MPR used to be a great place, not sure what happened.

I had a fabbed-up old Civic intake on my old ride, it worked just fine. No need to go all out... although, I would spend the money on a decent filter.

ill probably swap the filter out with k&n after a little while.

DrFabulous
01-02-2013, 03:58 PM
ill probably swap the filter out with k&n after a little while.

Doesn't have to be K&N, I just wouldn't use some crappy filter that gets rusty. Many other good brands out there.

03black
01-02-2013, 04:00 PM
thanks for the pointer! ordering my intake soon. then getting my res deleted soon.

DrFabulous
01-02-2013, 04:08 PM
thanks for the pointer! ordering my intake soon. then getting my res deleted soon.

Nice! You'll enjoy the sound quite a bit with that combo. I'd suggest a new muffler/tips while you are at it... will really open up the sound of the exhaust. Just about any single in/dual out should work (Flowmaster, Magnaflow, whatever- that’s all personal preference). If you have a local shop, they should be able to get something welded up for a couple hundred bucks.

There's lots of good info on this place, and people with TONS of knowledge, so feel free to ask away. Many people get scared off (we don't hold people's hands and tell them everything is perfect), but it's a great community... hence why I STILL come back here after almost 9 years.

sleepyalero
01-02-2013, 04:44 PM
An intake is an intake. Most intakes your just paying for the name. eBay cai will do the job fine, just get a better filter at your local auto parts store. They are both going to do the same thing and bring the same amount of power, as long as it goes into the front bumper.

MAC the KNIFE
01-02-2013, 05:45 PM
i'd keep the resonator, and delete mufflers. the resonator kicks out the high biotchy notes of your exhaust, and makes it nice and low. the muffler only turns down the volume, across all sound frequencies.

i've got a cutout behind my resonator. it's as loud as no muffler, but only the low and midrange sounds flow forth. sounds puurfect!



...
There's lots of good info on this place, and people with TONS of knowledge, so feel free to ask away. Many people get scared off (we don't hold people's hands and tell them everything is perfect), but it's a great community... hence why I STILL come back here after almost 9 years.
Fabs, no hate, but why is it that everytime you post now, you sound like ebenezer scrooge at the end of the story, where he's going around doing good deeds, and trying to make up for past sins? you come to an epiphany lately? whats the deal yo? where dat old fabs at?

young gun
01-02-2013, 06:34 PM
Fabs, no hate, but why is it that everytime you post now, you sound like ebenezer scrooge at the end of the story, where he's going around doing good deeds, and trying to make up for past sins? you come to an epiphany lately? whats the deal yo? where dat old fabs at?

New memebers. Trying to keep them around. Its not a bad idea as these cars get older and members stop coming around because there is newer and better things

[ChaosweaveR]
01-02-2013, 06:40 PM
2.25" pipe + glasspack in place of stock resonator + Flowmaster 80 = best sounding exhaust

kzulfic
01-02-2013, 07:44 PM
I just have 2.25 with resonator, glasspack in place of muffler. I love the sound of it, its low, and no rasp.

DrFabulous
01-03-2013, 10:31 AM
Fabs, no hate, but why is it that everytime you post now, you sound like ebenezer scrooge at the end of the story, where he's going around doing good deeds, and trying to make up for past sins? you come to an epiphany lately? whats the deal yo? where dat old fabs at?

If they seem like they're halfway intelligent and could be valuable to the community, I at least TRY to be nice to them. For a while.

And haven't you only been here for 2 years? How do you know about "dat old fabs"?

MilzyZ34
01-15-2013, 05:16 PM
you should check out the intake we sell. it's a little different than the others becuase we don't use aluminum tubing, which means it doesn't get heat-soaked. here's the link ...

http://www.milzymotorsports.com/mms-cold-air-intake/

kzulfic
01-15-2013, 05:36 PM
you should check out the intake we sell. it's a little different than the others becuase we don't use aluminum tubing, which means it doesn't get heat-soaked. here's the link ...

http://www.milzymotorsports.com/mms-cold-air-intake/

But.....but, It's not shiny. lol

MilzyZ34
01-15-2013, 08:23 PM
But.....but, It's not shiny. lol

I know you're joking, but you're absolutely right. I bet if it were shiney we'd sell more of them, but for me it's all about how well a part performs. Our cai doesn't look bad, it's just not shiney. I thought about making a ceramic coated aluminum intake tube but I don't see people paying that much for an intake like that.

kzulfic
01-15-2013, 08:40 PM
I know you're joking, but you're absolutely right. I bet if it were shiney we'd sell more of them, but for me it's all about how well a part performs. Our cai doesn't look bad, it's just not shiney. I thought about making a ceramic coated aluminum intake tube but I don't see people paying that much for an intake like that.

Ya, a ceramic coated one would sell more for the looks, and would perform well. It would pricy though. With all the eBay ones people can't even sell the nicer ones for what they're asking. I'm one to talk though, I just made my own bracket to mount where the factory air box was to make a short ram intake. I'm getting tired how loud it is though. It was cool when I did it, but it got old. I'll probably make CAI one of these days to quiet it up a bit.

[ChaosweaveR]
01-15-2013, 10:22 PM
$140 for a tube and a cone filter?

nope.avi

MilzyZ34
01-15-2013, 10:54 PM
;1200418']$140 for a tube and a cone filter?

nope.avi

the tubing isn't cheap, about $15/ft. the cai kit comes with tubing, a $30 reducing coupler, 3 stainless Breeze clamps, 2 custom-made aluminum sleeves to clamp the tube on to, and a K&N filter.

Smithkid21
01-15-2013, 11:07 PM
And yet it still probably performs just as well as the eBay CAI. I have nothing against your company, Mike. As I think it's sweet that you do such amazing work for this community, but at the end of the day, pipe is pipe. There really is no big difference in it to be worth spending the extra $110 for "specialty" tubing.

My .02

[ChaosweaveR]
01-15-2013, 11:50 PM
^ bingo. The eBay CAIs and chromeintakes CAI all do the same exact thing for way less. I bought my chromeintakes CAI used off another member from GAOC for $30 shipped, that had to be four years ago, it's holding up fine with almost 100,000 miles on the intake, plus whatever mileage the previous owner used it for.

MilzyZ34
01-16-2013, 12:47 AM
And yet it still probably performs just as well as the eBay CAI. I have nothing against your company, Mike. As I think it's sweet that you do such amazon work for this community, but at the end of the day, pipe is pipe. There really is no big difference in it to be worth spending the extra $110 for "specialty" tubing.

My .02

a few differences ...

the ebay ones leak because of their grommets. a leak after the MAF means unmetered air getting in the engine, which causes the engine to run lean.

they use non-reinforced couplers, not a huge deal, but very very cheap. they probably use these because they stretch easier so they don't have to run the right size to get them to fit. The 4-ply couplers we use don't stretch easy.

their clamps are not stainless, or maybe they're cheap stainless ... either way, they rust

our intake is made of insulative materials instead of heat-conducting ones, which means a colder intake charge. may not be a huge difference, but every little bit helps.

our intake uses genuine K&N filter, ebay comes with el cheapo knock-off brand.

look i agree that if someone makes their own cai that's 3.5" in diameter and not made of aluminum, with smooth transitions and a good filter, it will probaby perform exactly as ours does, but if you don't have all these things it may not perform as well. this mindset I have on always going with the better designed part, even if the power difference is slight may play a big part in why myself and those who buy my products hold almost all of the records for these engines. A couple hp here, a couple hp there adds up.

AaronGTR
01-16-2013, 07:33 PM
With the air speed moving through a CAI heat soak really makes no difference because it doesn't have time to transfer much heat to the air. Also it only really happens when sitting at idle. While driving around there is enough air moving around the engine bay and through the intake to keep temps down, plus the tubing wall thickness is so thin and there is so little metal there that it doesn't hold much heat, IE it cools off very quickly. I've observed this myself.

So if you aren't sitting still heat soak is not an issue. Maybe your tubing keeps the air half a degree cooler. Maybe more... who knows? I'd have to see some comparison testing to tell. Your tubing is convoluted and flexible though, so it may introduce a tiny bit more turbulence in the air stream. Or it may not... again testing would be needed.


So do I think there is any real difference between your intake or an aluminum CAI? Nope, not really. I think picking the right size tubing, having a good filter that is large enough to reduce restriction, and pulling cold air from the fender are probably the most important factors. So basically buy from who you like, or from someone with good customer service, or who has the price you can afford. Whichever is most important to you.

03black
01-16-2013, 07:38 PM
honestly, mike has good customer service. i have contacted him many times about random **** and he replies very fast with a in detail response. but right now i have a short ram from ebay until i can afford something better. I have big plans for this car. just right now, "baller on a budget" would fit me. (from ihatestickers.com)

MilzyZ34
01-16-2013, 09:07 PM
it doesn't hurt my feelings if you'd rather get a cheap intake on ebay instead of mine when the ebay one is so much cheaper. times are tough, money is tight, i get it. Is the MMS intake better? in my opinion, definately. How much of a power difference? probably not a big difference, but i still think there is one. i would venture to say my intake would stay cooler in situations where the aluminum would get heat-soaked, like stop and go driving, and stop-light to stop-light racing. I'm also curious what the cfm rating of the ebay filter is, the ones i've seen look restrictive though.

What if you bought the ebay intake, but fixed all the cheap parts?

ebay cai - ~$30?
K&N filter - $40
decent couplers x 4 - 2 straight, 2 reducers - $42
decent stainless clamps x 9 - $20
so that's about $132 so far, remember also no shipping costs in these prices, now only one more thing to fix, the leaking grommets ...
MMS threaded IAT kit - $35
threaded bung for pcv tube, brass fitting - $10
pay someone to TIG weld IAT bung, pcv bung in intake tube - $10
so by the time you fix all this, you've spent $187 plus shipping on everything, and the intake is still made of aluminum.

maybe I'm just being picky, but i just can't stand the quality of the chinese junk that has saturated the performance industry. i'd probably make more money if i sold cheap products like that, but it just feels wrong.

unless you've seen the tubing we use in person, don't make assumptions on how the inside is just because the outside is obviously corrugated, it's actually very smooth.

no hard feelings, just having a spirited debate. in the end, get whatever works best for your needs, budget, and quality expectations.

kzulfic
01-16-2013, 09:23 PM
it doesn't hurt my feelings if you'd rather get a cheap intake on ebay instead of mine when the ebay one is so much cheaper. times are tough, money is tight, i get it. Is the MMS intake better? in my opinion, definately. How much of a power difference? probably not a big difference, but i still think there is one. i would venture to say my intake would stay cooler in situations where the aluminum would get heat-soaked, like stop and go driving, and stop-light to stop-light racing. I'm also curious what the cfm rating of the ebay filter is, the ones i've seen look restrictive though.

What if you bought the ebay intake, but fixed all the cheap parts?

ebay cai - ~$30?
K&N filter - $40
decent couplers x 4 - 2 straight, 2 reducers - $42
decent stainless clamps x 9 - $20
so that's about $132 so far, remember also no shipping costs in these prices, now only one more thing to fix, the leaking grommets ...
MMS threaded IAT kit - $35
threaded bung for pcv tube, brass fitting - $10
pay someone to TIG weld IAT bung, pcv bung in intake tube - $10
so by the time you fix all this, you've spent $187 plus shipping on everything, and the intake is still made of aluminum.

maybe I'm just being picky, but i just can't stand the quality of the chinese junk that has saturated the performance industry. i'd oprobably make more money if i sold cheap products like that, but it just feels wrong.

unless you've seen the tubing we use in person, don't make assumptions on how the inside is just because the outside is obviously corrugated, it's actually very smooth.

no hard feelings, just having a spirited debate. in the end, get whatever works best for your needs, budget, and quality expectations.

I prefer your opinion over most. You do have the fasted FWD LA1 GA, and you have your owns shop, and a store dedicated to GM V6.

Hopefully someday we can get people to realize you get what you pay for. My work has slowed down over time. Our product is the most expensive on the market, but it offers the best quality, and security, even though I still don't approve of some of the weld the let slide by, it is still much better than others.

MilzyZ34
01-16-2013, 10:28 PM
I prefer your opinion over most. You do have the fasted FWD LA1 GA, and you have your owns shop, and a store dedicated to GM V6.

Hopefully someday we can get people to realize you get what you pay for. My work has slowed down over time. Our product is the most expensive on the market, but it offers the best quality, and security, even though I still don't approve of some of the weld the let slide by, it is still much better than others.

I appreciate that.

We can always hope people will eventually learn that you get what you pay for, hopefully someday that will happen. In the import world, (which I am exposed to because my fabricator is into 240's and other cars like that, and all his customers drive ****-burners) I've noticed that they finally have realized that the $150 turbo manifolds on ebay will only last about a month before they crack, and that maybe it's worth buying something of better quality, even if it is quite a bit more ... mostly because my fabricator Jon holds no insults back as he explains over and over "No I won't fix your p.o.s. OBX header, it will just break again, you can pay me to build a new one, or go somewhere else" After a few years of this and other mechanics across the country saying the same thing, I think they finally are getting the message. Hopefully the people of this community can realize that maybe there is some truth to the saying you get what you pay for without having to spend a fortune buying ebay parts over and over and over. We can always hope.

I'm not saying you have to always buy the most expensive option. just do some research and find the products that have the features you want. for instance, make sure quality control and fitment (*cough* pacesetter *cough*) are things the company takes into account before making a big purchase.

bricooper78
01-16-2013, 10:34 PM
I literally JUST got my chrome intakes ebay'er today, that replaces me home made plastic chrome piping I got from o'reilly and built myself.

I feel so ashamed right now Mike... I'm sorry lol I like the looks of yours, looks all military grade, is cool! However, in my application, the CAI is the only thing I've changed for any "perfomance mod" (hate the term mod anyways), and so I doubt my motor could tell much of a difference.

Now, something like that monster you built, or some of the 3500 hybrids, I could see that maybe that little extra makes more difference. I see both sides of the argument.

kzulfic
01-16-2013, 10:37 PM
I appreciate that.

We can always hope people will eventually learn that you get what you pay for, hopefully someday that will happen. In the import world, (which I am exposed to because my fabricator is into 240's and other cars like that, and all his customers drive ****-burners) I've noticed that they finally have realized that the $150 turbo manifolds on ebay will only last about a month before they crack, and that maybe it's worth buying something of better quality, even if it is quite a bit more ... mostly because my fabricator Jon holds no insults back as he explains over and over "No I won't fix your p.o.s. OBX header, it will just break again, you can pay me to build a new one, or go somewhere else" After a few years of this and other mechanics across the country saying the same thing, I think they finally are getting the message. Hopefully the people of this community can realize that maybe there is some truth to the saying you get what you pay for without having to spend a fortune buying ebay parts over and over and over. We can always hope.

I'm not saying you have to always buy the most expensive option. just do some research and find the products that have the features you want. for instance, make sure quality control and fitment (*cough* pacesetter *cough*) are things the company takes into account before making a big purchase.

Totally agree. Haha, its funny you mention pacesetter, those headers they got don't even look close to quality, mid you I have only seen pictures. I would hate to see them in person. The biggest thing I couldn't get over is the crossover, why wouldn't they just make a long tube design.

kzulfic
01-16-2013, 10:45 PM
I literally JUST got my chrome intakes ebay'er today, that replaces me home made plastic chrome piping I got from o'reilly and built myself.

I feel so ashamed right now Mike... I'm sorry lol I like the looks of yours, looks all military grade, is cool! However, in my application, the CAI is the only thing I've changed for any "perfomance mod" (hate the term mod anyways), and so I doubt my motor could tell much of a difference.


Now, something like that monster you built, or some of the 3500 hybrids, I could see that maybe that little extra makes more difference. I see both sides of the argument.

Cooper you should feel ashamed, take that POS you got, and return it, with your ninjabread buddies, and kick some China ass. lol

In all seriousness though, in your situation won't affect much, you'll just be taking food out of Mikes childens mouths. Now is the time to feel bad.

Ok, guess I can't be serious ATM, but you get the point.

MilzyZ34
01-16-2013, 10:55 PM
Totally agree. Haha, its funny you mention pacesetter, those headers they got don't even look close to quality, mid you I have only seen pictures. I would hate to see them in person. The biggest thing I couldn't get over is the crossover, why wouldn't they just make a long tube design.

pace setter tried the same double slip-fit collector design on grand prix headers about 5 years ago, and they sucked then, always failing. How don't they realize the major flaw in that design, and then 4 years later, make their grand am headers the same exact way.

I honestly don't remember seeing the crossover on the pace-setter headers. i don't think i got past staring at how bad the headers hit the trans on that prototype set. That's where my attention was focused. I mean here I am making our headers, I've got the engine and 4t45e in a mock-up car, I'e got another engine and 4t65e on a table, and a couple other transmissions like 4t60e, F40, 4 speed muncie and other laying around for test-fitting any trans you could possibly have in the car. I'm re-installing parts on the mock-up car to make sure everything fits like radiator hoses, heater hoses, transmission brackets, dipsticks on the 4t65e trans that the car didn't even come with, all the different mount setups we offer for each transmission, etc ... and here pacesetter can't even make the header not hit the transmission bigger than s***. How did they miss that? did they solely build them on a lone engine just sitting on the ground, and had no idea that bellhousing flange actually attached to something?

bricooper78
01-16-2013, 10:58 PM
Well, I like the looks of theirs.. it does have the military, or dark knight kinda stuff, and i loves me some batman lol
Aside of a tune, and eventually exhaust, my car will never see internal work, and that really is the reason i don't see me ponying up. But that thing looks really sweet....

On Topic (for once lol) like I say, I see both sides of this, me, and the just little differences just for the sake of being a little different, vs the powerhouse 'squeeze every tenth out' crowd, the crowd that might see more gains with Milzy intake. I have NO clue, and don't claim to, just based off what I read in this thread, if I personally was going for maximum grunt, I'd pony up for the Milzy. But I have a quick enough cruise around towner, I don't see my car noticing much of a difference either way.

For the record, I ordered the ebay one due to the fact that the one I built has some nasty habit of popping open at the bend lol I have NO ENGINEERING in me apparently, I have to have help in designing anything in my car!

MilzyZ34
01-16-2013, 11:00 PM
Cooper you should feel ashamed, take that POS you got, and return it, with your ninjabread buddies, and kick some China ass. lol

In all seriousness though, in your situation won't affect much, you'll just be taking food out of Mikes childens mouths. Now is the time to feel bad.

Ok, guess I can't be serious ATM, but you get the point.


yeah, me and my 3 year old son WERE going to order some Pizza Hut this weekend, but now we'll have to settle for Ramen noodles again. Thanks a lot Cooper. haha just kidding.

no harm done. i can't really blame you guys for being tempted by an intake kit that is that cheap. it'd be nice if they made a nicer version with better parts.

bricooper78
01-16-2013, 11:09 PM
Oh, I have a laundry list of parts to get, You'll get money from me sooner or later lol

I'll end up getting a program from you at least. I've always wondered what sort of kick that would give them... if I have the cash, may order another new intake and a program!

MilzyZ34
01-16-2013, 11:09 PM
honestly, when i first came out with this intake, it was for 3800 grand prix's. i couldn't see why they were willing to fork out $200-250 for a hot air intake with a box built around it. When I came across this tubing, I found an affordable way to have complex bends without paying big bucks to have aluminum one-piece mandrel bent, (less couplers = less clamps = less cost and less places to leak), so i marketed that 3800 w-body cai for about 150 back then with a pcm tray since the stock pcm sits in the airbox. so back then, mine was the cheap alternative, now that china has come to power though, you can buy a shipping container full of cold air intakes hand-made my hong kong's 7 year olds for probably around $10 each probably less, and then throw them up on ebay and make a killing. There's a good chance they make more selling those $30 ones on ebay than I make on mine as sad as that is.

kzulfic
01-16-2013, 11:21 PM
pace setter tried the same double slip-fit collector design on grand prix headers about 5 years ago, and they sucked then, always failing. How don't they realize the major flaw in that design, and then 4 years later, make their grand am headers the same exact way.

I honestly don't remember seeing the crossover on the pace-setter headers. i don't think i got past staring at how bad the headers hit the trans on that prototype set. That's where my attention was focused. I mean here I am making our headers, I've got the engine and 4t45e in a mock-up car, I'e got another engine and 4t65e on a table, and a couple other transmissions like 4t60e, F40, 4 speed muncie and other laying around for test-fitting any trans you could possibly have in the car. I'm re-installing parts on the mock-up car to make sure everything fits like radiator hoses, heater hoses, transmission brackets, dipsticks on the 4t65e trans that the car didn't even come with, all the different mount setups we offer for each transmission, etc ... and here pacesetter can't even make the header not hit the transmission bigger than s***. How did they miss that? did they solely build them on a lone engine just sitting on the ground, and had no idea that bellhousing flange actually attached to something?

I'm confused, a 4 speed muncie? Elaborate please.

[ChaosweaveR]
01-16-2013, 11:23 PM
I for one, am all for quality parts.

However, these cars aren't exactly performance monsters, most of the kids buying them now don't escalate past doing a CAI and exhaust. A tune is a stretch. When I bought my CAI, I already had a K&N cone filter from my short ram setup.

My point? Sure, you have the fancy tubing and couplers, quality things...but for what, 2, maybe 3HP at best with a tune? That $140 just isn't worth spending for such a tiny gain, especially on a car that's just probably going to be a daily driver and see light modifications.

MilzyZ34
01-16-2013, 11:26 PM
I'm confused, a 4 speed muncie? Elaborate please.

1st gen fiero 2.8L optional trans. same bellhousing as 3400.

i bought a fiero a while back, ws thinking of doing a Grassroots Motorsports car, ended up selling it when I had too many projects. I bought it running and driving for $500, sold the engine for $375 sold the fuel pump assembly for $200 or something crazy, and then sold the car for $500 and kept the tranny. Not sure what to do with the tranny, so I use it mostly for test-fitting. I was going to use it behind an L67 when I was thinking of doing the Grassroots build.

MilzyZ34
01-16-2013, 11:29 PM
;1200581']I for one, am all for quality parts.

However, these cars aren't exactly performance monsters, most of the kids buying them now don't escalate past doing a CAI and exhaust. A tune is a stretch. When I bought my CAI, I already had a K&N cone filter from my short ram setup.

My point? Sure, you have the fancy tubing and couplers, quality things...but for what, 2, maybe 3HP at best with a tune? That $140 just isn't worth spending for such a tiny gain, especially on a car that's just probably going to be a daily driver and see light modifications.

It's not a real high hp mod, i would hope mine would yield more hp than that, but it's definately not a lot. I think for most people, they're just happy with the sound more than anything. as for power, it's hard to beat the gain/$ you get from a good pcm tune.

[ChaosweaveR]
01-16-2013, 11:34 PM
It's not a real high hp mod, i would hope mine would yield more hp than that, but it's definately not a lot. I think for most people, they're just happy with the sound more than anything. as for power, it's hard to beat the gain/$ you get from a good pcm tune.

To me, you need to have the three basic bolt ons before stepping up to a PCM tune:

Headers
Exhaust
Intake

With all that in place, you'll need to mess with the fuel mapping, AFR, etc to maximize the most out of the increased airflow coming in and exiting the engine.

kzulfic
01-16-2013, 11:38 PM
Hmmm... Has one ever been put into a GA, and how hard are they to come buy? Also would it be worth it, or just shoot for the F40?

Do you have an idea of the PCM tune gain on a stock motor with exhaust, and intake. Just curious what one could expect. Also how many degrees advanced is the timming in your PCM tune?

MilzyZ34
01-16-2013, 11:56 PM
;1200586']To me, you need to have the three basic bolt ons before stepping up to a PCM tune:

Headers
Exhaust
Intake

With all that in place, you'll need to mess with the fuel mapping, AFR, etc to maximize the most out of the increased airflow coming in and exiting the engine.

The MAF meter measures the increase in airflow, and adds fuel accordingly. I'll agree that any car, even stock ones for that matter can see a gain in both efficiency and power from doing an air-fuel tune, but we only pretty much do this on a dyno though because it's just too risky to send out pcm's to people without having all the facts on how the car is running currently. Atmospheric conditions, fuel composition (which varies region to region and also season to season), the condition of the engine and its sensors, and other factors all contribute to a vehicle's afr. Without having wideband data on the car, it would be impossible to predict the car's actual current afr, so we pretty much only do this type of tuning in house on a dyno or do a wideband street tune, or we can also do tuning over the internet if the customer is at the dyno and has hptuners. So that being said, yes a dynotune would be beneficial for everyone, but our standard pcm tune can also yield very good results without even touching afr. I've written pcm's for 3400's for about 8 years now, and have really dialed in the tune we do for these cars. We advertize a gain of about 10-15whp with our pcm tune. Generally speaking in terms of 3100 and 3400 cars, the older the car, the more conservative the tune, and the more power to be gained. Some cars like say the early malibu's have extremely conservative settings, and we can really wake them up. No matter what vehicle you have, there is always gain to be had in tuning the pcm, even if it is completey stock. there are settings in the pcm of most 3400's where torque output is limited to 208 ft-lbs, and if you go over it, it starts reducing timing to limit engine output. The more you go over this amount, the harsher the torque reducing punishment. Before we knew about this problem, back in 2005 when we had just started making cams and utting them in cars, we found that some of the 200+ whp cars would run into an issue, and would lose amost 100whp when this kicked in. For $100, we add atleast 10-15hp by adjusting the timing, we tighten up all the shifting, make the downshifts more aggressive, raise up-shift speeds to around 6000rpm, change fan settings to keep the engine running cooler in conjunction with a 180 t-stat, change ac settings to disengage the compressor when you drive more aggressviely, freeing up hp, remove some of the abuse settings which limit power from a dead-start, etc. The end result is a much more responsive car that honestly should have came that way from the factory.

MilzyZ34
01-16-2013, 11:59 PM
Hmmm... Has one ever been put into a GA, and how hard are they to come buy? Also would it be worth it, or just shoot for the F40?

Do you have an idea of the PCM tune gain on a stock motor with exhaust, and intake. Just curious what one could expect. Also how many degrees advanced is the timming in your PCM tune?

timing advance increase depends on the year, model, etc. it's also a whole table, so it's not real easy to generalize, but at wot, getting into the meat of the hp powerband, it's around +3 degrees for your car. older cars and malibus may see 5+ degrees more than stock

[ChaosweaveR]
01-17-2013, 12:02 AM
A PCM tune does make a world of a difference, especially considering how conservative these cars are programmed from GM. Honestly, I sometimes wish I had the cash and slapped down for some S&S headers and a cam. Hell, a tune with a cam is a nice bump in HP and torque, makes it feel like a different car. But I just couldn't justify paying +$750 on used headers and redoing my entire exhaust to get the most out of the headers. That's just me, though.

kzulfic
01-17-2013, 12:27 AM
;1200599']A PCM tune does make a world of a difference, especially considering how conservative these cars are programmed from GM. Honestly, I sometimes wish I had the cash and slapped down for some S&S headers and a cam. Hell, a tune with a cam is a nice bump in HP and torque, makes it feel like a different car. But I just couldn't justify paying +$750 on used headers and redoing my entire exhaust to get the most out of the headers. That's just me, though.

Don't forget heads, you might as well not do the cam if you're going to skimp on the head work.

Mike, sorry I did mean WOT.

MilzyZ34
01-17-2013, 12:30 AM
Don't forget heads, you might as well not do the cam if you're going to skimp on the head work.

Mike, sorry I did mean WOT.

amen

kzulfic
01-17-2013, 12:36 AM
So, what would the price be for a dyno tune if I drove down to you?

MilzyZ34
01-17-2013, 01:21 AM
So, what would the price be for a dyno tune if I drove down to you?

We charge $500 for the dynotune, which includes a custom pcm tune, and gets you 2 hrs of dyno time with wideband air-fuel tuning. it's basically paying for a custom pcm, renting the dyno for $100/hr, and paying me $75/hr to tune it.

kzulfic
01-17-2013, 01:30 AM
Thats not bad for everything you're offering. If possible I would like to learn somthing about tuning, so if I can closely watch, and ask a few questions that would be great.

I can fix, repair, remove, and install anything, but when it comes to tuning I am a beginner. I have been reading alot, but untill i get some hands on time, in my eyes I know nothing.

MilzyZ34
01-17-2013, 01:39 AM
Thats not bad for everything you're offering. If possible I would like to learn somthing about tuning, so if I can closely watch, and ask a few questions that would be great.

I can fix, repair, remove, and install anything, but when it comes to tuning I am a beginner. I have been reading alot, but untill i get some hands on time, in my eyes I know nothing.

that's fine with me.

kzulfic
01-17-2013, 01:42 AM
that's fine with me.

Haha, exciting. I'm shooting for late spring, I don't want to spend the money on a tune, and then add something, and do it all over again. Though it would be more learnig experince, just an expensive one.

MercenaryX2
01-17-2013, 03:24 AM
I've been tuning imports, primarily Mitsu's and Scubies, for a few years now and I can personally say a tune on a stock ECU/PCM is a great benefit. The AFR maps are so poorly mapped and dump too much fuel in to prevent knocking. You can tune it to get better fuel mileage by just doing a mild tune.

Nevertheless, this is off topic. As for a CAI, the one drawback I've found is that there is no spot on the Egay kit, atleast for mine, for the crankcase vent and IAT sensor. It only came with pre-MAF piping, mounting kit and a filter that will probably give my motor AIDS. So I'd have to fab up a pipe between the MAF and TB to hold my IAT and crankcase vent pipe. So I understand what Mike is talking about because I understand how much a misreading on a MAF can do to the fueling, especially when it comes to forced induction.

So for now, I have to settle with the stock rubber piping between the TB and MAF.

@Mike, I have a question about your CAI. If I'm reading it right, the outside is rigid for flexibility but the inside is smooth like metal piping, correct?

locoman99
01-17-2013, 04:05 AM
Something else you dont get with your cheap ebay parts chris is personal customer service.just last year i screwed up an order from milzy and had it being sent to the wrong address Mike caught it and fixed the order while keeping in touch the whole time.
Milzy is a quality operation...u get what u pay for, that includes customer service.

On another note...i seen some good pics of the f40 swap you did for sleepyalero...all i can say is wow. I want a set of your mounts! Beautiful work.

sleepyalero
01-17-2013, 04:35 AM
Something else you dont get with your cheap ebay parts chris is personal customer service.just last year i screwed up an order from milzy and had it being sent to the wrong address Mike caught it and fixed the order while keeping in touch the whole time.
Milzy is a quality operation...u get what u pay for, that includes customer service.

On another note...i seen some good pics of the f40 swap you did for sleepyalero...all i can say is wow. I want a set of your mounts! Beautiful work.

It sure is fun to drive. :) 2nd Alero out there with the F40. Only 2 out there so far. Mfuller has the first.

[ChaosweaveR]
01-17-2013, 06:13 AM
Something else you dont get with your cheap ebay parts chris is personal customer service.just last year i screwed up an order from milzy and had it being sent to the wrong address Mike caught it and fixed the order while keeping in touch the whole time.
Milzy is a quality operation...u get what u pay for, that includes customer service.

On another note...i seen some good pics of the f40 swap you did for sleepyalero...all i can say is wow. I want a set of your mounts! Beautiful work.

If you actually payed attention to what I posted, I bought it used from somebody off of GAOC. I never bought it from eBay.

sleepyalero
01-17-2013, 06:15 AM
I need to get me some popcorn for this.

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad58/natesalero/9f58fa31d3d30b92c11d76f3db1ed6c5.jpg

MilzyZ34
01-17-2013, 12:35 PM
I've been tuning imports, primarily Mitsu's and Scubies, for a few years now and I can personally say a tune on a stock ECU/PCM is a great benefit. The AFR maps are so poorly mapped and dump too much fuel in to prevent knocking. You can tune it to get better fuel mileage by just doing a mild tune.

Nevertheless, this is off topic. As for a CAI, the one drawback I've found is that there is no spot on the Egay kit, atleast for mine, for the crankcase vent and IAT sensor. It only came with pre-MAF piping, mounting kit and a filter that will probably give my motor AIDS. So I'd have to fab up a pipe between the MAF and TB to hold my IAT and crankcase vent pipe. So I understand what Mike is talking about because I understand how much a misreading on a MAF can do to the fueling, especially when it comes to forced induction.

So for now, I have to settle with the stock rubber piping between the TB and MAF.

@Mike, I have a question about your CAI. If I'm reading it right, the outside is rigid for flexibility but the inside is smooth like metal piping, correct?

yeah, the tube has a steel helix as it's skeleton (think big thin spring), which keeps it pretty rigid, but very flexible without binding, the inside is very smooth, and corrugation is barely noticeable inside.

I should say that our cold air intake for the grand am also attaches to the MAF, and does not replace the tubing between the MAF and throttle body. why do we do this? a few reasons ... 1) it's not really much of a restriction 2) to add ports for the IAT and pcv tube properly with our setup would mean getting a custom coupler made like the ones we do for the 3800 that have an IAT port built in. These couplers cost about $50 or so though, so this would only add more expense to the cai we offer for the grand am. with the extra tubing, clamps, custom coupler, etc, probably going to cost atleast $200, and I don't see that being a product that would sell well. 3) ideally the MAF should be in a 2-3 ft section of straight pipe, right in the middle, so that flow is consitent in the MAF tube, but in the stock setup, it's attached right to the airbox and followed by a curved tube about 6-8 inches long. What this means is that the flow through the MAF is not consistent, therefor to match the tune in the pcm, the MAF has to be clocked at a certain angle. This is probably hard to understand, so think about it this way ... ideally with the MAF in the long straight pipe, the peak of the airflow would be right in the center of the tube, but in a curved tube, this peak is not in the center, it's offset along the axis of the curve, between center and the outside edge of the tube. If you had a constant airflow through the length of the tube, and twisted the MAF, you would see the flow numbers go up and down as you twist it, eventhough the actual flow rate hasn't changed. So to avoid issues with the MAF being slightly misaligned, we leave the tube in place, which is keyed for the MAF and for the throttle body, locking their relative position.

AleroB888
01-17-2013, 02:45 PM
yeah, the tube has a steel helix as it's skeleton (think big thin spring), which keeps it pretty rigid, but very flexible without binding, the inside is very smooth, and corrugation is barely noticeable inside.

I should say that our cold air intake for the grand am also attaches to the MAF, and does not replace the tubing between the MAF and throttle body. why do we do this? a few reasons ... 1) it's not really much of a restriction


I have found that to be correct as well, it's not that much of a bend, and much of it is smooth anyway. Of course, it would not do as well for a blow-through situation.


If you had a constant airflow through the length of the tube, and twisted the MAF, you would see the flow numbers go up and down as you twist it, even though the actual flow rate hasn't changed.

I don't follow you there, are the "flow numbers" measured external and independent of the PCM? What are those parameters, if they are not the flow rate -- pressure change?

MilzyZ34
01-17-2013, 03:38 PM
I have found that to be correct as well, it's not that much of a bend, and much of it is smooth anyway. Of course, it would not do as well for a blow-through situation.



I don't follow you there, are the "flow numbers" measured external and independent of the PCM? What are those parameters, if they are not the flow rate -- pressure change?

for arguments sake, lets say you are flowing exactly 50 lb/min through the curved intake tube. the maf measures flow by the vibration of the sensor inside of it, which spits it out as a frequency (Hz). The pcm then assigns lb/min value of air based off the MAF freq vs MAF flow table. When you rotate the sensor in the tube, it will only read 50 lb/min at one position, any other way you clock it, it will either read high or low.

locoman99
01-17-2013, 04:43 PM
Bernoulli Principle

AaronGTR
01-17-2013, 05:51 PM
@Mike, I have a question about your CAI. If I'm reading it right, the outside is rigid for flexibility but the inside is smooth like metal piping, correct?

yeah, the tube has a steel helix as it's skeleton (think big thin spring), which keeps it pretty rigid, but very flexible without binding, the inside is very smooth, and corrugation is barely noticeable inside.


It doesn't matter how smooth the inside is. If it's normally straight pipe but is corrugated (however this is accomplished) and able to be flexed, then it will no longer be a perfectly smooth surface inside once it is bent. In order to achieve the bend one side has to be shorter than the other. It's simple geometry. The fact that the material has to zig zag inside to take up a shorter distance is going to create breaks in the surface, and no matter how small they are they will cause turbulence by the laminar air flow detaching from the surface at break points. This is a standard principle of fluid dynamics.

The difference may not be very much depending on the severity and the peak air speed/volume we see, and you'd have to do some pretty detail flow testing to quantify the difference... but based on known air flow principles a hard pipe that is mandrel bent into the correct shape will always have smoother flow than a flexible pipe. How much this matters is a different question though.


....What this means is that the flow through the MAF is not consistent, therefor to match the tune in the pcm, the MAF has to be clocked at a certain angle. This is probably hard to understand, so think about it this way ... ideally with the MAF in the long straight pipe, the peak of the airflow would be right in the center of the tube, but in a curved tube, this peak is not in the center, it's offset along the axis of the curve, between center and the outside edge of the tube. If you had a constant airflow through the length of the tube, and twisted the MAF, you would see the flow numbers go up and down as you twist it, eventhough the actual flow rate hasn't changed. So to avoid issues with the MAF being slightly misaligned, we leave the tube in place, which is keyed for the MAF and for the throttle body, locking their relative position.

for arguments sake, lets say you are flowing exactly 50 lb/min through the curved intake tube. the maf measures flow by the vibration of the sensor inside of it, which spits it out as a frequency (Hz). The pcm then assigns lb/min value of air based off the MAF freq vs MAF flow table. When you rotate the sensor in the tube, it will only read 50 lb/min at one position, any other way you clock it, it will either read high or low.


Um, I think you are a little off on function of the MAF. That doesn't match anything I've ever read about it. Here's a quick link with an explanation similar to others I've seen. http://www.sensorland.com/HowPage060.html

The MAF does not function on vibration. It is a hot wire sensor like any other MAF, and is basically a thermistor, and it converts voltage to a digital Hz signal for the PCM. It is true that having the MAF in the straightest air flow possible is optimal, and putting it in an extreme curve could possibly affect the reading, but they also put that screen there on the front for a reason. It straightens the air flow and mitigates some of the effects of air turbulence. Putting it in front of or behind a gradual curve isn't going to affect it much, if at all. Also GM doesn't use lb/min as a unit of flow measurement in their PCM's. They've gone metric like everyone else. It's grams/second. ;)

GM also used that MAF on a bunch of different cars with different engines and different air boxes. The MAF was probably calibrated in a lab with a piece of straight pipe, then the fueling tables were probably tweak in individual cars it was installed in. If you change the intake and change the position/orientation of the MAF, you can tune for changes (if any) with a tuner the same way.

MilzyZ34
01-17-2013, 07:24 PM
It doesn't matter how smooth the inside is. If it's normally straight pipe but is corrugated (however this is accomplished) and able to be flexed, then it will no longer be a perfectly smooth surface inside once it is bent. In order to achieve the bend one side has to be shorter than the other. It's simple geometry. The fact that the material has to zig zag inside to take up a shorter distance is going to create breaks in the surface, and no matter how small they are they will cause turbulence by the laminar air flow detaching from the surface at break points. This is a standard principle of fluid dynamics.

The difference may not be very much depending on the severity and the peak air speed/volume we see, and you'd have to do some pretty detail flow testing to quantify the difference... but based on known air flow principles a hard pipe that is mandrel bent into the correct shape will always have smoother flow than a flexible pipe. How much this matters is a different question though.


Um, I think you are a little off on function of the MAF. That doesn't match anything I've ever read about it. Here's a quick link with an explanation similar to others I've seen. http://www.sensorland.com/HowPage060.html

The MAF does not function on vibration. It is a hot wire sensor like any other MAF, and is basically a thermistor, and it converts voltage to a digital Hz signal for the PCM. It is true that having the MAF in the straightest air flow possible is optimal, and putting it in an extreme curve could possibly affect the reading, but they also put that screen there on the front for a reason. It straightens the air flow and mitigates some of the effects of air turbulence. Putting it in front of or behind a gradual curve isn't going to affect it much, if at all. Also GM doesn't use lb/min as a unit of flow measurement in their PCM's. They've gone metric like everyone else. It's grams/second. ;)

GM also used that MAF on a bunch of different cars with different engines and different air boxes. The MAF was probably calibrated in a lab with a piece of straight pipe, then the fueling tables were probably tweak in individual cars it was installed in. If you change the intake and change the position/orientation of the MAF, you can tune for changes (if any) with a tuner the same way.


I could be wrong about how the frequency signal is generated, but the rest of what i said still stands. I think what you're trying to say is the corrugations would cause a boundary layer to form. even if it did, this boundary layer would have to be over 1/4" thick for it to cause any loss of flow compared to the 3" pipe.

the screen is there to provide a more consistant signal, but it can't physically move the point of peak flow back to center just by having a screen there.

i agree you can tune out any difference you create by twisting the maf, but are you going to re-tune the whole MAF table every time you remove and replace your cold air intake, assuming that you don't mark exactly where it was and put it right back? All I'm saying to you guys is if you go through all the effort of doing a dynotune or other wideband tune, either always make sure the MAF is always in the exact same clocking, or put it right in the middle of a 3ft section of straight pipe so orientation doesn't matter.

in HPTuners, I'm pretty sure the MAF flow vs freq table is entered in lb/min. Since I don't directly read the serial data off the pcm, I guess I refer to the data I deal with in HPTuners. I couldn't tell you which one the pcm itself uses, my guess is both.


the MAF itself is probably calibrated to have the proper frequency output at a given flow rate in a straight piece of pipe, but i bet you the maf flow vs freq table is actually dialed in on a vehicle with a curved intake tube.

I know about fluid dynamics, it was a requirement to get my mechanical engineering degree.

AaronGTR
01-17-2013, 09:51 PM
I think what you're trying to say is the corrugations would cause a boundary layer to form. even if it did, this boundary layer would have to be over 1/4" thick for it to cause any loss of flow compared to the 3" pipe.

No I'm not taking about boundary layers. There is always a boundary layer with moving air. Air has viscosity and has a tendency for some of it to stick to the surface it's against just like water. The boundary layer (the laminar layer) moves slowly and allows the inner layers to move smoothly and faster. But air, like anything else with momentum, also wants to keep moving in the same direction. If you change it's direction smoothly and gradually it sticks to the wall and moves smoothly. If you change direction to drastically or with a sudden angle (or a bunch of small sudden angles like in a corrugated tube) the air wants to pull away from the surface and tumble. At a certain point you move from laminar flow to turbulent flow which isn't as good for velocity, or for MAF readings.


the screen is there to provide a more consistant signal, but it can't physically move the point of peak flow back to center just by having a screen there.

i agree you can tune out any difference you create by twisting the maf, but are you going to re-tune the whole MAF table every time you remove and replace your cold air intake, assuming that you don't mark exactly where it was and put it right back? All I'm saying to you guys is if you go through all the effort of doing a dynotune or other wideband tune, either always make sure the MAF is always in the exact same clocking, or put it right in the middle of a 3ft section of straight pipe so orientation doesn't matter.

Seriously? It's not that hard to put a MAF back in the same place. If you mod the engine and get your setup finish and have a good intake and get it tuned as is, it would be a piece of cake to do maintenance on the car and put the MAF back the same way every time. Or at least close enough that it's not going to make any difference. Also you'd hardly need a 3 ft section of pipe. Air velocity would normalize (or get darn close) after a much shorter distance than that.

Also proper design of the intake can negate some of the affect of velocity difference across a bend. As an example, my SC setup requires me to use a large bend from the TB to reach the fender. I used a 3" large radius 180, cut off at around 160 degrees to get the right angle. That connects to a 3" to 3.5" reducing coupler on the back of an LS1 MAF. In front of the MAF though is a 3" long 3.5" diameter coupler hooked to a 3.5" large radius 45 degree bend with a 3.5" opening K&N filter on the end. I used a large filter and large diameter pipe with a smaller angle to reduce the velocity and turbulence in front of the MAF. The difference in velocity between the inner and outer curves increases with a greater angle and smaller radius, and it also is affected by total velocity. Lower total velocity equals a smaller differential.


in HPTuners, I'm pretty sure the MAF flow vs freq table is entered in lb/min. Since I don't directly read the serial data off the pcm, I guess I refer to the data I deal with in HPTuners. I couldn't tell you which one the pcm itself uses, my guess is both.


the MAF itself is probably calibrated to have the proper frequency output at a given flow rate in a straight piece of pipe, but i bet you the maf flow vs freq table is actually dialed in on a vehicle with a curved intake tube.

In DHP it's in grams per second. The injector table is metric too. It's msec/gram. Charles was a GM software engineer at one point, so I'd imagine he'd use the same measurements in his tuning software that he used in his job. Pretty much every major company that sells anything internationally has gone to metric these days. HP probably converts to standard because it's what people in the U.S. are used to.

And about the MAF calibration, I'm almost positive you are wrong about that. They had a whole bunch of MAF files on the tuning forum and they were all for specific engines, ie LA1, LS1, LQ4, etc. Those engines were used in multiple cars with different intakes and the MAF file was always specified by engine, not by car. They probably did any fine tuning for specific cars in the VE file for that car.

MilzyZ34
01-17-2013, 10:28 PM
dude, you're typing makes my head hurt.

air does not always move through a pipe all at the same rate, and just because air doesn't stick to the walls as it moves like you said, that doesn't make it turbulent throughout the tube. air will always find the best line through the pipe called a streamline, just like a race car driver will choose a similar path to take a turn. he starts our wide, hits the apex and then carries the speed out wide again. this is the fastest way to take the turn, and air flows the same way. the presence of this affect does not keep it from being laminar.

as for what i said about MAF tables, I meant the maf tables are designed "in a car" meaning on an engine, with exhaust, intake box, etc, which would be the opposite of in a lab on a straight piece of pipe like you said.

as for units, I'm pretty sure the pcm does in fact have both sets of units as outputs, but in the end, who cares what one company uses or another company uses. it's all the same thing, one unit is the same as another unit times a coefficient and vice versa. HP Tuners is setup for both. I prefer imperial. I'm not the only one, or it wouldn't be on there. If you like metric, great. It really makes no difference in the end.

MercenaryX2
01-18-2013, 02:57 AM
One thing I know about changing anything intake related is that once you do that, your MAF scalings are thrown off. It may not be a huge difference but there is still a difference. I saw it all the time when I went through a few different intakes on my DSM.

AaronGTR
01-18-2013, 06:00 PM
dude, you're typing makes my head hurt.

air does not always move through a pipe all at the same rate, and just because air doesn't stick to the walls as it moves like you said, that doesn't make it turbulent throughout the tube. air will always find the best line through the pipe called a streamline, just like a race car driver will choose a similar path to take a turn. he starts our wide, hits the apex and then carries the speed out wide again. this is the fastest way to take the turn, and air flows the same way. the presence of this affect does not keep it from being laminar.

My typing makes your head hurt? Look who's talking. You are putting words in my mouth now. I never said air moves through a pipe at the same rate. Any idiot who has read anything about fluid dynamics knows how laminar flow works. It's layers of air (or liquid) that slide along next to each other smoothly, and the velocity increases from the outside towards the inside (or the path of least resistance) with the highest speed normally being in the center of a straight pipe.

I also didn't say air not sticking by the wall made a flow turbulent. I said if there are breaks along the wall it can make the air tumble, and if there is a drastic enough change in direction and enough tumble added the flow will change from laminar to turbulent. Since you are a mechanical engineer and studied fluid dynamics you should know what I'm talking about. It's called the dimensionless reynolds number. It varies by specific geometry of the tube and substance that is flowing through it, and it's sensitive to introduction of turbulence and imperfections in the system... but once you reach that threshold flow changes over to turbulent. So my reasoning based on that theory is you should try to avoid introducing any unnecessary turbulence if possible.

as for what i said about MAF tables, I meant the maf tables are designed "in a car" meaning on an engine, with exhaust, intake box, etc, which would be the opposite of in a lab on a straight piece of pipe like you said.

Yeah, I understood what you said before :rolleyes: and I'm saying you are wrong about that because different cars that use the same engine and MAF sensor but different intakes and exhausts have THE SAME MAF table. I thought I said this already?

as for units, I'm pretty sure the pcm does in fact have both sets of units as outputs, but in the end, who cares what one company uses or another company uses. it's all the same thing, one unit is the same as another unit times a coefficient and vice versa. HP Tuners is setup for both. I prefer imperial. I'm not the only one, or it wouldn't be on there. If you like metric, great. It really makes no difference in the end.

Why on earth would GM make the PCM output two different values for MAF signals? It would be completely unnecessary for them. You are right that it doesn't matter which tuning company uses which output. I'm just saying that's not how GM measures it. Any company can take the output though and do a calculation in their software to convert it to any measurement they want.

AaronGTR
01-18-2013, 06:03 PM
One thing I know about changing anything intake related is that once you do that, your MAF scalings are thrown off. It may not be a huge difference but there is still a difference. I saw it all the time when I went through a few different intakes on my DSM.


This can be true to a degree... but a lot of it depends on the specific car and the kind of MAF sensor it uses, and the design of it's intake. I've read a lot of magazine articles where they dyno tested intakes on a lot of different cars, and some made power with no tuning necessary. Others such as turbo Subaru's like the WRX were so sensitive to intake changes they would either run lean or actually lose power unless they were re-tuned with the new intake and then they would gain power. :)

MilzyZ34
01-22-2013, 08:58 PM
remember when I said "I'm pretty sure the pcm does in fact have both sets of units as outputs..."

well the pcm obviously has one unit of measurement measured by the MAF, which would be an INPUT to the pcm. What I said is that both are outputs. You can monitor both standard and metric units with any scanner, not just HPT, which is why i said what i said. the pcm actually outputs multiple readings for maf numbers, not just two.

as for the peak flow being right in the center of the pipe, this is only true if the pipe is perfectly straight, otherwise this max flow will occur at the position of the main stream-line I mentioned in my previous post, the position of which is continually changing as the air moves through the intake tube from one bend to another.

AaronGTR
01-22-2013, 09:57 PM
remember when I said "I'm pretty sure the pcm does in fact have both sets of units as outputs..."

well the pcm obviously has one unit of measurement measured by the MAF, which would be an INPUT to the pcm. What I said is that both are outputs. You can monitor both standard and metric units with any scanner, not just HPT, which is why i said what i said. the pcm actually outputs multiple readings for maf numbers, not just two.

No, the pcm only receives and outputs one signal for MAF reading. It only needs one to do it's calculations. Why would it use more than one? It's the scanner doing the converting to different readings. Not the PCM. I can do this in the scanner on DHP. I can open a gauge and click on properties and modify the equation to make it read in any scale or unit I want. That's how I set up my analog input to show the reading from my wideband.

as for the peak flow being right in the center of the pipe, this is only true if the pipe is perfectly straight, otherwise this max flow will occur at the position of the main stream-line I mentioned in my previous post, the position of which is continually changing as the air moves through the intake tube from one bend to another.

uh, duh.... that's why I said the same exact friggin' thing you just said. Laminar flow increases velocity from the outside to the inside of a pipe until it is at the center or the path of least resistance... AKA the path through the tube where the most flow occurs. I guess you didn't both to actually read what I said?

MilzyZ34
01-22-2013, 10:37 PM
No, the pcm only receives and outputs one signal for MAF reading. It only needs one to do it's calculations. Why would it use more than one? It's the scanner doing the converting to different readings. Not the PCM. I can do this in the scanner on DHP. I can open a gauge and click on properties and modify the equation to make it read in any scale or unit I want. That's how I set up my analog input to show the reading from my wideband

I agree there is one input from the maf to the pcm. i disagree about the outputs. You know what, think whatever you want, I dont care. The world is flat, the moon is made of cheese, and you are always right.

AaronGTR
01-23-2013, 04:44 PM
I agree there is one input from the maf to the pcm. i disagree about the outputs. You know what, think whatever you want, I dont care. The world is flat, the moon is made of cheese, and you are always right.


Now you are just being ridiculous. Show me ONE credible source showing that the PCM outputs more than one value for the MAF reading. Anything believable that's not nonsense. Please...


There is absolutely NO reason why GM would need it to do that. Given the limited computing power of the PCM, and the fact that the more signals you add to sample while scanning slows down the refresh rate through the OBD port, that would be a stupid thing to do. It makes more sense to let the scanner do that work, since it has more resources available.

sleepyalero
01-23-2013, 05:39 PM
Jesus Christ this is still going on. lol