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sleepyalero
09-26-2013, 11:17 PM
okay so i got a HPT pro. was toying around with it today running some diags... and came across something interesting..

when i hook the tuner up to the car, with it in the ON position, i press the pedal down, tps % reads 50%. now lets back up here.... if i EASE into the pedal to the floor it will read 50%, if i smash the pedal down quick, it says 0.

i went driving to test it, sometimes it wouldnt read when floored, if i eased into in in say second gear... after doing a few pulls, the max i could get the tps % was 84.

im confused what the problem is here... i looked at the dtc codes through the tuner, sure enough two came up for the tps. P0122 and P0111 or P0121, something like that, low voltage (premmature) and some other things, i forget, but thats the jist of it...

put the tuner in fisdads alero, tested his tps. weather i punch the gas fast, or ease into it, it goes up to 100%.

i dont know whats wrong here.... dont know where to look... or how to fix this atm... im curious on if this is causing my high idle issues at recent start ups after WOT.

i plan to pop the hood in a second and check the connections, the tps is literally a month old. i did the TPS relearn with no luck...... any help would be great.

sleepyalero
09-26-2013, 11:27 PM
well, just looked, all wiring and connections to it look fine.

the sensors are from autozone, could it just be there sensors are just junk? thinking about going to napa, replacing the tps with one of theres, and see if it works?

stewartfn18
09-26-2013, 11:41 PM
sounds like the tps isnt sending the right signals to the pcm. id recommend replacement with an acdelco one

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 12:06 AM
Hmmm. Thats an idea. But where could i get one other then dealer? Or by ordering?

MAC the KNIFE
09-27-2013, 06:04 AM
my obd2 scanner shows the same number i think at wot. 84% at WOT instead of 100. (on the g8)

AaronGTR
09-27-2013, 08:18 AM
Hmmm. Thats an idea. But where could i get one other then dealer? Or by ordering?

Could check on rock auto. They usually carry a bunch of brands including AC delco and Delphi. I was gonna suggest the TPS relearn procedure, but you said you already did that so... it's got to be either an issue with the wiring, or the sensor itself. If the throttle plate is opening all the way, it should read close to 100%, and if you've done the relearn procedure it should know what the lower and upper voltage limits are and scale appropriately.

my obd2 scanner shows the same number i think at wot. 84% at WOT instead of 100. (on the g8)

have you tried doing the TPS relearn procedure Mac?

MAC the KNIFE
09-27-2013, 09:39 AM
have you tried doing the TPS relearn procedure Mac?

nah. it's fast enough with only 84% throttle lol

stewartfn18
09-27-2013, 09:59 AM
id say rockauto is going to be the cheapest and easiest to get a acdelco one. mac you also have dbw. those never see true 0 percent and 100 percent

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 10:04 AM
well whats weird is fisdads car showed 100% no problem, i plan on probably going to car quest today and getting a AC DELCO TPS from car quest to see what happens there.

im pretty sure the throttle plate does open all the way.

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 01:13 PM
well i just got a new TPS from car quest. 44$ + tax. installed and plugged the tuner in. did a TPS relearn before i actually ran a scan. car now goes up to 100% TPS. but it still shows im throwing DTC's.

before changing sensor i got.... i believe same as last night.. as follows what it says in HPT.

[] P0122 - Throttle position (TP) sensor circuit low voltage (immature)

[] P1122 - throttle position (TP) sensor circuit intermittent low voltage (history) (immature)


and now im getting as of 5 mins ago... (after TPS was replaced)

[] P1122 throttle position (TP) sensor circuit intermittent low voltage (pending) (history) (immature)

HenryM
09-27-2013, 02:14 PM
You may have a bad connector, Napa sells the pigtail, get one splice it on, do the relearn procedure again. Usually what happens is the wire inside the insulation begins to break, so gradual that you won't notice till something like this happens. Seen this prob across the board will all makes and models in the shop.

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 02:22 PM
Thats a possibility... But it seems a little unlikely for the pigtail to be bad?

HenryM
09-27-2013, 02:28 PM
Happens more often than you would think.

HenryM
09-27-2013, 02:31 PM
Napa sells them quite often to the local techs here, part number is EC89, you can see if that part number crosses over to another brand the your FLAPS carries. But Echlin has a stellar rep.

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 03:52 PM
alright cool, thanks for that. ill probably look into it if nothing else solves it.

im about to do another scan.. see if the code cleared after a little bit of driving.


but where the eff is aaron!!! usually hes the guru on the site.... SHOW YOUR SELF.

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 04:52 PM
just did another scan, cleared codes from last initial scan, the tps code has not come back as of the most recent scan (3 mins ago) and i checked the iac position at idle, it sat at 13, and would sometimes go up to 14, but would hold a pretty steady 13. the tps still goes to 100% as well so thats good there...

stewartfn18
09-27-2013, 05:30 PM
sounds like your problem is solved

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 06:51 PM
Nope. Codes are back....

Right as i floored it the same 2 codes above came back

geldartb
09-27-2013, 06:56 PM
i'd say you got a wiring problem then.. stop spending money on sensors and diagnose the wiring.. nothing pisses me off more than electrical problems but tracking them down sure beats throwing money at sensors.

i've had my top end off the engine more times than you wash your car when i first put the engine together.(troubleshooting ****) and the wiring harness has been moved around more than i care to remember and i never had a problem..

i'd look into the wires going to the TPS..do you have a multimeter you could measure the plug end with..

the only thing i have a problem with is MAP sensors and given that they were all junkyard pulls i'm not really holding anything against the sensor .that was because i decided to go with the 3500 style sensor which is also found on J-body 4cly's.finally got an ac delco oem replacement.

AaronGTR
09-27-2013, 08:34 PM
alright cool, thanks for that. ill probably look into it if nothing else solves it.

im about to do another scan.. see if the code cleared after a little bit of driving.


but where the eff is aaron!!! usually hes the guru on the site.... SHOW YOUR SELF.

Aaron is doing homework. ;) Anyway I agree with Henry. If you've already replaced the sensor and the new one is reading good, but you are getting voltage codes, then it is more likely a loose connector or frayed wiring. They can get bad from the wire flexing over and over. Best to just replace it. only other possibility would be a bad PCM.

HOYS
09-27-2013, 08:54 PM
First, is your floor mat interfering with your gas pedal? Have a buddy press the pedal to WOT and see if you can move the linkage on the TB to see if it opens more.

Past that: The sensor or signal wire to the TPS is the center wire (iirc, double check me on that) and you will have a low voltage reading of around .4 volts coming out with key on and 0% throttle. WOT will be around 4.9v (you can do this test with key on and engine not running)

Check to see both of those values are what you get from the signal wire.

If there is some problem, make sure you are getting 5V through the other wiring.

If that checks out then pulse or tap the pedal and then slowly increase from 0% to 100% to check out the voltages and see if they correlate to the actual throttle position.

If the signal coming out of the TPS (aka all of these checks) are good then you are looking at faulty wiring to the PCM or a bad PCM.

Next step would be to check the signal wire at the PCM (I can't tell you the pinout as I don't have SI in front of me ATM).

Thats the jist of it... sorry not so great at typing at the moment :)

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 08:54 PM
dang.... well i went on a drive.. again, could only get the tps up to 84 percent at wot. when pedal was still to the floor once the tps went to 84% it just dropped to zero while i was still WOT. 84 was highest i could get it, other times it would reach 78.


what about a bad crank position sensor?



heres when i floored it, went to 78% then dropped while pedal was still down.

HOYS
09-27-2013, 08:58 PM
dang.... well i went on a drive.. again, could only get the tps up to 84 percent at wot. when pedal was still to the floor once the tps went to 84% it just dropped to zero while i was still WOT. 84 was highest i could get it, other times it would reach 78.


what about a bad crank position sensor?

TPS is based on the voltage coming out of the TPS sensor. Thats it n' thats all. I do think HP tuners can log the voltage PID that the PCM sees from the TPS as well.

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 08:59 PM
above post edited, with picture..

true, but i have had some wacky idle/random high rpm where it wont come down. everytime i have the damn tuner plugged into the car scanning i can never get it to do high idle.

HOYS
09-27-2013, 09:00 PM
above post edited, with picture..

true, but i have had some wacky idle/random high rpm where it wont come down. everytime i have the damn tuner plugged into the car scanning i can never get it to do high idle.

Do you have any other scan tools or gauges hooked up to the data line when you are using HPT?

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 09:02 PM
Do you have any other scan tools or gauges hooked up to the data line when you are using HPT?

nope.

HOYS
09-27-2013, 09:25 PM
nope.

Any of your VCM controls enabled like IAC PW or Target Idle?

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 09:26 PM
First, is your floor mat interfering with your gas pedal? Have a buddy press the pedal to WOT and see if you can move the linkage on the TB to see if it opens more.

Past that: The sensor or signal wire to the TPS is the center wire (iirc, double check me on that) and you will have a low voltage reading of around .4 volts coming out with key on and 0% throttle. WOT will be around 4.9v (you can do this test with key on and engine not running)

Check to see both of those values are what you get from the signal wire.

If there is some problem, make sure you are getting 5V through the other wiring.

If that checks out then pulse or tap the pedal and then slowly increase from 0% to 100% to check out the voltages and see if they correlate to the actual throttle position.

If the signal coming out of the TPS (aka all of these checks) are good then you are looking at faulty wiring to the PCM or a bad PCM.

Next step would be to check the signal wire at the PCM (I can't tell you the pinout as I don't have SI in front of me ATM).

Thats the jist of it... sorry not so great at typing at the moment :)


throttle doesnt move anymore when pedal is to the floor.

i dont have a digital multi meter, cant really figure out how to use one either, just watched a video and im like wut. but i tried all different ways in the sensor plug and the needle didnt move at WOT with the key in the ON position. (analog multi meter)

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 09:27 PM
Any of your VCM controls enabled like IAC PW or Target Idle?

please elaborate. im new to this lol.

HOYS
09-27-2013, 09:44 PM
throttle doesnt move anymore when pedal is to the floor.

i dont have a digital multi meter, cant really figure out how to use one either, just watched a video and im like wut. but i tried all different ways in the sensor plug and the needle didnt move at WOT with the key in the ON position. (analog multi meter)

Get one at Harbor Freight for cheap. Its a must have. I have 4 (all in different states of repair).

You can get piercing probes that will tap into the wire where ever you want. Be careful as they might cause corrosion as the wire is now uncoated where you pierce them with those probes. Simple way is to take a paper clip, un fold it, stick it into the weather seal on the pin you are trying to probe. Clip onto this with an alligator clip and there is your tap into that connection.

please elaborate. im new to this lol.

http://www.hptuners.com/help/gfx/vcm_scanner_vcmcontrols.jpg

This is what the VCM Controls menu looks like...ish.

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 09:52 PM
Ill will come back in a sec for that post above. Going to do a quick scan run and get tbell.

But found out i can read voltage through hpt on the tps.

Key ON 0% throttle. - .69/.71

Key ON 100% throttle. - 4.59/4.61

It keeps hopping between those numbers.

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 09:55 PM
This is what shows, some i cant even click.

Sorry cell pic

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad58/natesalero/A14D85F4-5805-4B26-AB47-E283DF12CD5F-202-0000000962DF1D97_zps383290f3.jpg

HOYS
09-27-2013, 10:08 PM
I think the IAC stuff and idle control is either under special or fuel and spark iirc.

You don't have an exhaust brake or variable manifold....etc...so that s why you can't click some ;)

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 10:22 PM
okay just got back, i will look at that in a sec hoys. the throttle is now reading back to 50% at full throttle when car is in ON position.

when floored driving the highest the TPS voltage went to was 3.28 at WOT once it reached that it went to 0.00 when i was still going WOT.

highest while driving % wise was 80. but i just got back to fisdads shut car off and put pedal to floor, it only reads 50% again... wtf.

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 10:28 PM
screen shot of special

HOYS
09-27-2013, 10:37 PM
Wow they really haven't fleshed out the Alero .bin files at all! I always see GAs having IAC control.

Either way you need to check the voltage AT the sensor, not just what the PCM reports. If you feel fancy and have HP tuners pro you could wire the splice from the signal wire into one of the analog inputs on HPT and make it as just a 0-5v input, log it versus what the PCM reports as voltage ;)

PhantomLover007
09-27-2013, 10:40 PM
How is it using the HTP scanner Nathan? Is it pretty easy?

I remember that you couldn't do certain thing like you could w/ the other tuner. Is it still true?

I've been sitting on the fence about getting one because of this...

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 10:42 PM
idk if i want to do that! lol

guess ill have to obtain a volt meter, aside from that, anything else i can do? maybe i can call milzy sometime soon, see what he says as well.

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 10:43 PM
How is it using the HTP scanner Nathan? Is it pretty easy?

I remember that you couldn't do certain thing like you could w/ the other tuner. Is it still true?

I've been sitting on the fence about getting one because of this...

well i dont know the difference between hpt and the "other" tuner, but im new to hpt but it seems like you can do quite a bit, milzy uses it in his shop so i assume its a good program to use.

PhantomLover007
09-27-2013, 10:47 PM
Ok cool. Too bad you and Aaron aren't near each other or you guys could compare them

HOYS
09-27-2013, 10:53 PM
Ok cool. Too bad you and Aaron aren't near each other or you guys could compare them

HP Tuners is pretty nice. I believe between the two they both have the same tables available. HP Tuners uses proprietary .hpt files instead of .bin files so you can't open them up with open source editors that are out there (not really important but it is something)

HP Tuner is still under constant development so improvements are always on the way...and you can use it on a lot of vehicles!

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 10:55 PM
okay this is weird, look at the table on the left. the TPS reads 90% thottle but notice the voltage is 0.00. now look to the right... it says its in the 40% area for tps. WTF??

sleepyalero
09-27-2013, 10:58 PM
Ok cool. Too bad you and Aaron aren't near each other or you guys could compare them

yeah haha.

HOYS
09-27-2013, 11:08 PM
okay this is weird, look at the table on the left. the TPS reads 90% thottle but notice the voltage is 0.00. now look to the right... it says its in the 40% area for tps. WTF??

That looks like a part where you let off and the ECU read 90% throttle previously, but 0v and hadn't registered the change yet. Ooooor...you could have a borked PCM. It might also be something of a limp mode because of your 6spd swap and the car thinks the trans fluid is at -38 degrees F :P

Honestly with the 6 spd swap, who knows.

HOYS
09-27-2013, 11:13 PM
That looks like a part where you let off and the ECU read 90% throttle previously, but 0v and hadn't registered the change yet. Ooooor...you could have a borked PCM. It might also be something of a limp mode because of your 6spd swap and the car thinks the trans fluid is at -38 degrees F :P

Honestly with the 6 spd swap, who knows.

Also, I'm 100% sure Milzy just turned off the CELs for all the transmission problems...but you can't disable the logic that creates limp modes. This could be an issue.

sleepyalero
09-28-2013, 12:07 AM
Yeah im not sure what it is.... I need to see what milzy says.

Starglow
09-28-2013, 12:17 AM
HP Tuners is pretty nice. I believe between the two they both have the same tables available. HP Tuners uses proprietary .hpt files instead of .bin files so you can't open them up with open source editors that are out there (not really important but it is something)

HP Tuner is still under constant development so improvements are always on the way...and you can use it on a lot of vehicles!

You guys might want to check out Tiny Tuner...

http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=5105245&p=8&tmode=1&smode=1&cookieCheck=837311520

HOYS
09-28-2013, 12:26 AM
You guys might want to check out Tiny Tuner...

http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=5105245&p=8&tmode=1&smode=1&cookieCheck=837311520

Tiny Tuner was what I was referencing as an open source tuner.

Tiny Tuner has no PCM write capabilities, all it can do it edit .bin files. Its nice because it is directed at GM FWD V6 applications so a lot of parameters are defined (more so than HP Tuners which did FWD junk as an after thought, was initially geared towards V8 guys).

Tiny Tuner is actually a program we don't really need as there are other open source "open" .bin editors that are FAR more powerful and robust but they come as a blank slate, no definitions at all.

Tl:dr: Tiny tuners can edit files, not flash them, so you still need HPT or some other cable based tuner.

Starglow
09-28-2013, 12:43 AM
BTW....do you know if Mike locks the PCM after he does a tune?

AleroB888
09-28-2013, 01:35 AM
Like's been said, change the TPS plug if you haven't already.

I just went through that with a MAF sensor plug, that's no fun at all.....

At least you can see what's happening now, ha

sleepyalero
09-28-2013, 03:36 AM
BTW....do you know if Mike locks the PCM after he does a tune?

i dont think he does. atleast not on mine, im able to change alot of things on my own and re flash my PCM. i dont know exactly yet how i can inch more power out of the car, but soon enough i will change some things.

Like's been said, change the TPS plug if you haven't already.

I just went through that with a MAF sensor plug, that's no fun at all.....

At least you can see what's happening now, ha

yes, im very happy i can now see this, without this tuner i would have never known of this issue, no engine codes ever popped a light. so no light, i dont go check engine codes.

how did you connect a new maf sensor plug? solder? wire connectors? please inform.

ps. im glad you finally stopped in here!

That looks like a part where you let off and the ECU read 90% throttle previously, but 0v and hadn't registered the change yet. Ooooor...you could have a borked PCM. It might also be something of a limp mode because of your 6spd swap and the car thinks the trans fluid is at -38 degrees F :P

Honestly with the 6 spd swap, who knows.


okay, now that im actually home and dont have to think on typing and talk to a buddy at the same time....

im pretty positive i was still WOT. like i said when i floor it the TPS % will read to a certain extent (say 78%) then will just suddenly drop to 0% while im still WOT. but the chart on the left of that pic shows i was at 90% throttle. possibly was still gaining then i let out after i saw the TPS % was dropping on the gauges chart.

i will test this again tomorrow night before i decide on replacing the pigtail for the TPS. but i just dont understand why both charts are not reading the same TPS %.

AaronGTR
09-28-2013, 09:35 AM
best way to hook up a new sensor lead is with crimped connections and heat shrink. Solder connections actually increase electrical resistance a tiny bit and can skew the readings.I also agree with Hoys that you really need a digital multimeter. It is essential for diagnosing electrical problems. It's not really that hard to use. The trick with the paperclip and a jumper wire with alligator clips that he mentioned is a good one I've used before.I really think you should get the meter and check the volts at the plug and replace the plug and lead before you start messing around with other stuff. I think there's a good possibility that is the problem.

as for the difference between tuners, I think DHP and HPT have basically the same capabilities now. They just have different file names for things, and go about things in a slightly different way.they both have their plus and minus. HPT is still in business so you still get development and customer support. DHP isn't around anymore, but all cars are open in the latest software version and you can use open source tuners like tiny tuner with more features, so you can tune almost any FWD GM car from 96 to 05. HPT is much more expensive and charges a ton of money for extra car licenses which is the major downside if you want to help other people tune their cars. And they charge extra for the pro version with more features like the analog input, which was pretty much standard on DHP. HPT hasn't put much development into their FWD software since they focus on v8 cars, the plus side being if you had say an fbody or vette and a Grand Am, you could get licenses and tune both with HPT. I would use a DHP though to tune other peoples cars for cheap.

AleroB888
09-28-2013, 11:17 AM
best way to hook up a new sensor lead is with crimped connections and heat shrink. Solder connections actually increase electrical resistance a tiny bit and can skew the readings. ....

A properly done solder connection is going to be better than a crimped-on connection. However, heat shrink insulating over crimped connections should be adequate.

AaronGTR
09-28-2013, 11:22 AM
A properly done solder connection is going to be better than a crimped-on connection. However, heat shrink insulating over crimped connections should be adequate.


It "might" be stronger... but like I said, solder actually increases electrical resistance. ;) A properly done crimp connection is plenty strong and is low resistance, and with a good heat shrink over it, it will be strong and weather tight. They make crimp connectors with heat shrink ends already on them that melt like plastic onto the wire. We used both kinds of crimps at my last job at L3 communications, and they are standard in the electrical industry. If they are good enough for a 1.5 million dollars x-ray machine, they are good enough for his car.

HOYS
09-28-2013, 12:35 PM
sleepy, do you have the pro HP tuners? I would be really cool to data log the voltage at the sensor and what the pcm reports at the same time :)

sleepyalero
09-28-2013, 02:14 PM
Thanks guys, yes i have the pro. I said that in first post! ;) lol

AleroB888
09-28-2013, 02:14 PM
It "might" be stronger... but like I said, solder actually increases electrical resistance. ;) A properly done crimp connection is plenty strong and is low resistance, and with a good heat shrink over it, it will be strong and weather tight. They make crimp connectors with heat shrink ends already on them that melt like plastic onto the wire. We used both kinds of crimps at my last job at L3 communications, and they are standard in the electrical industry. If they are good enough for a 1.5 million dollars x-ray machine, they are good enough for his car.

OK, by exactly how much does the resistance increase over crimped? What percentage of the total circuit resistance is it, after you add in the resistance of the length of wire to the PCM?

And why would NASA use solder connections at all when it would be cheaper just to use all crimped splices?

Check pages 81-86:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/87394.pdf

sleepyalero
09-28-2013, 03:31 PM
Okay i just picked up a new tps pig tail. It came with a blue black and grey wire.

I assume its self explanitory for install?

Blue to blue

Black to black

Grey to i think its... A yellow w/black line in it on stock wires?

That or i could just match where the wires goes into the stock plug and go off what wires go where for the new plug.

sleepyalero
09-28-2013, 06:17 PM
Alright, changed pig tail. Getting 100% throttle with key in on position (not running)

Still reading same voltage through HPT, i know, use a multimeter. lol

Still recieving this...

P1122 throttle position (tp) sensor circuit intermittent low voltage (history) (immature)



Seems i just wasted 22$. Might just have to return it come monday maybe, since so far i havent seen much improvement.

Ill be doing a drive scan later to see if the throttle will reach 100% then. Report back later.

AleroB888
09-28-2013, 07:16 PM
okay this is weird, look at the table on the left. the TPS reads 90% thottle but notice the voltage is 0.00. now look to the right... it says its in the 40% area for tps. WTF??

http://www.grandamgt.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31478&d=1380340488

Uhh, 11 degrees of Knock Retard? Where's that coming from?

HOYS may be on to something about the limp home mode. But when I had an actual TPS failure and the limp mode, the car would barely accelerate the whole time.

This could be a limp mode not caused by the TPS, which commands the TPS to a specific value regardless of the actual gas pedal position.
Yikes, I hope it's just an intermittant wire to the PCM.

Be careful driving it at this point, man.

sleepyalero
09-28-2013, 07:55 PM
Ive read a little about KR. Still processing that. lol i dont know why it went to 11* ill see what happens again here soon because ill be doing another scan.

Ive read that bad gas can cause kr and other things as well.

HOYS
09-28-2013, 08:13 PM
An interesting thing to do would be to splice your coolant temp sensor into your transmission connector for the transmission oil temp. This is just brain storming but I'd make the car think that it has an auto still might go a long way and might get rid of some issues.

sleepyalero
09-28-2013, 09:27 PM
well all tables are 0'd out for the auto trans. i wouldnt even know where to splice in at for trans temp. plus the F40 has like 1 or 2 plugs only for the transmission compared to the stock trans which i think has more.

i tried accelerating again only got to 78% wot before it said i was at 0%... hmmmm then my laptop died. sadly it doesnt hold a charge. :(

AaronGTR
09-28-2013, 09:29 PM
Eh, since you don't have the auto trans anymore, you don't really need the factory pcm either. Just ditch the whole thing and go stand alone ecm. That's what I would do! :) (j/k)

Starglow
09-29-2013, 12:05 AM
i tried accelerating again only got to 78% wot before it said i was at 0%... hmmmm then my laptop died. sadly it doesnt hold a charge. :(

This is why I pay people to do this stuff....then it's their problem. :lol

HOYS
09-29-2013, 02:32 AM
well all tables are 0'd out for the auto trans. i wouldnt even know where to splice in at for trans temp. plus the F40 has like 1 or 2 plugs only for the transmission compared to the stock trans which i think has more.

i tried accelerating again only got to 78% wot before it said i was at 0%... hmmmm then my laptop died. sadly it doesnt hold a charge. :(

Who cares if all of the tables are zero'd. There might still be logic in the PCM that is making it do wonky things.

I'm saying, you still have the big 20 or so pin connector that goes on the front of the 4t45. From that connector wire the trans temp and pressure sensor somehow (i'd have to do a lot of research to help on this) to make it think like the car has an automatic transmission that is healthy, not over heating, and operating at decent pressures. I don't really agree with the method Milzy uses for this but I might be 100% wrong. It really isn't documented what happens when you disable a CEL and tell it not to report. Stuff might be going on that you don't know about.

Eh, since you don't have the auto trans anymore, you don't really need the factory pcm either. Just ditch the whole thing and go stand alone ecm. That's what I would do! :) (j/k)

Hell it sounds like a good idea to me past not having a working cluster, abs, or body functions. Time for RACECAR MODE! lol

rjs_boy
09-29-2013, 02:44 AM
If it were me...I would be reaching out to Milzy at this point. Surely he has done a few manual swaps and encountered some kinks like this. He might have some pointers for you.

sleepyalero
09-29-2013, 03:34 AM
He did the swap you would think he knocked em all out lol

sleepyalero
09-29-2013, 05:59 AM
Who cares if all of the tables are zero'd. There might still be logic in the PCM that is making it do wonky things.

I'm saying, you still have the big 20 or so pin connector that goes on the front of the 4t45. From that connector wire the trans temp and pressure sensor somehow (i'd have to do a lot of research to help on this) to make it think like the car has an automatic transmission that is healthy, not over heating, and operating at decent pressures. I don't really agree with the method Milzy uses for this but I might be 100% wrong. It really isn't documented what happens when you disable a CEL and tell it not to report. Stuff might be going on that you don't know about.

It could possibly be true on that.

What method are you referring to? 0'img out all auto tables? Ill have to get under the car and see what plugs are left for the stock transmission that have been unplugged. Do you know how many plugs go into the 4t45 trans?

I believe in the swap no harnesses were added in for the F40, i blieve you can use a stock plug or two and it just plugs right into the stock harness. Ill have to double check on that soon, but im pretty sure thats how it goes.


If i were to splice wires into a certain harness, how exactly would that work? If im using the stock trans harness, how would i splice a stock plug that has been left unplugged from the auto trans (i know this might get confusing) lol into another stock plug being used for the F40 to make the trans somewhat right and make it read trans temp/pressure and all that.. Does that make sense? Of course i know what im trying to say its a matter of if you know what im trying to say lol

The car runs strong and flawless 90-95% of the time, that other small percent is when i get high idle every once in awhile. (possible limp mode as you said) but at WOT the car feels strong, im not sure why the TPS 0's out at WOT, i remember back when i borrowed HPT from a friend, (i had auto trans at the time) the TPS % always ran 100% at WOT, just not understanding why its not now. Im wondering if this whole high idle issue, and possible "limp mode" is an issue with the TPS reading on the tuner. But like i said, before i even got this tuner i have now, i would have never seen that code for the TPS, it doesnt pop a light on the dash when it reads a DTC, i only know it if i have the tuner hooked up, but it doesnt seem to phase the car at all even though some how its getting a low voltage signal accoring to HPT.


Ill have to see how many connections are un done for the auto trans soon. Just gotta find where they are hiding, i know where one connection for the F40 is , ill get some pics as well of what plug(s) are being used for the F40, and whats not being used.



I appreciate your help HOYS in all of this, along with everyone elses insight!




It would be nice if i could get a hold of tim (i think his name was, who did the first f40 swap in the GA) and see if he still has the tune for his, what problems he had, and if his swap performed any better then mine, i remember i PM'd him a long time ago, and didnt get a repsonse for a few months. I know he parted out the car and everything, i think because of certain issues and he couldnt get it right? I dont remember.....

Sweet i still had his previous PM. But havent talked to him since .

ME:

Hey Tim, my name is nathan. im currently in the process of a 6 speed install my self by MMS.... i know its been since 2009, dont know if you even get on here anymore. but just curious to see what happened with your 6 speed swap GA or if its still running or its gone or what? just looking for some info really.

TIMKA86:


well i haven't visited this site in forever, but when i do i seem to have PM's about the 6 speed. I parted the car out a year after the build. MMS bought all my 6 speed swap stuff. I'm into the Nissan/Infiniti modding world now. RWD ftw.

I'm guessing your 6 speed is up and running? Rattle much?


/end of his reply.



It sucks seeing people put all that work and effort in a car, then just parting it out and letting it go without any care anymore. Just stinks to see projects go to waste, even after they do finish them and get running.

AaronGTR
09-29-2013, 07:32 AM
Hell it sounds like a good idea to me past not having a working cluster, abs, or body functions. Time for RACECAR MODE! lol


ABS and body functions don't work through the PCM. They are in the BCM, so no reason why they shouldn't work. ;) Might have to use a tech2 or some other electronic trickery to disable the security feature, but that's do-able. Or just bypass the BCM and hardwire the fuel pump circuit to a switch. Cluster... you could do all gauges or replace it with a digital display from one of a half dozen companies that would work with a stand alone ECM.

Best thing about a stand alone is it would have many more open functions and easier to dial in and know exactly what is going on. Fuel and ignition map displays. Running completely off a wideband O2 with easy tune for target afr's wherever you set. Ability to run multi-stage injectors and different fuel mapping at flick of a switch, and so on and so on. Yeah it would be a lot of work, but if I was bothering to spend the time and money for a custom turbo setup and manual trans swap, I'd go all the way and get everything I needed to make it run the best. Why do it half ass?

AleroB888
09-29-2013, 12:48 PM
......The car runs strong and flawless 90-95% of the time, that other small percent is when i get high idle every once in awhile. (possible limp mode as you said) but at WOT the car feels strong, im not sure why the TPS 0's out at WOT, i remember back when i borrowed HPT from a friend, (i had auto trans at the time) the TPS % always ran 100% at WOT, just not understanding why its not now. Im wondering if this whole high idle issue, and possible "limp mode" is an issue with the TPS reading on the tuner. ....
Ill have to see how many connections are un done for the auto trans soon. .....


It sucks seeing people put all that work and effort in a car, then just parting it out and letting it go without any care anymore. Just stinks to see projects go to waste, even after they do finish them and get running.

With the high KR, you're still losing 2-4 % of the top end power. IF that is false knock triggered by excess noise, easiest thing to try is packing the knock sensor with Permagum cords. Then the trans temp sensor can be simulated with either an IAT or ECT sensor. You might try placing one on the back of the UIM, for example.

That might tell you if : (KR) + (Trans Temp Sensor fail) = limp mode. If it just helps the KR , that's still a little more power for you.

It seems Tim's project did not go entirely to waste, it may have set the stage for your project.

If you want, you can send your .hpt file, it would save a lot of questions about the scans. I wouldn't reveal anything therein without Mike's permission. (If you go to the HP Tuners' forum and post a question, the first thing they tell you is to post your tune.)

edit: also try scanning for "Delivered Trans Torque" and "AFR Commanded" with the HPT

rjs_boy
09-29-2013, 12:51 PM
He did the swap you would think he knocked em all out lol

Even more reason to reach out to him. Not saying he did something wrong, more that he probably knows just as much about how to fix that KR and TPS reading in combination with all the other work you've had done to your car.

sleepyalero
09-29-2013, 01:47 PM
With the high KR, you're still losing 2-4 % of the top end power. IF that is false knock triggered by excess noise, easiest thing to try is packing the knock sensor with Permagum cords. Then the trans temp sensor can be simulated with either an IAT or ECT sensor. You might try placing one on the back of the UIM, for example.

That might tell you if : (KR) + (Trans Temp Sensor fail) = limp mode. If it just helps the KR , that's still a little more power for you.

It seems Tim's project did not go entirely to waste, it may have set the stage for your project.

If you want, you can send your .hpt file, it would save a lot of questions about the scans. I wouldn't reveal anything therein without Mike's permission. (If you go to the HP Tuners' forum and post a question, the first thing they tell you is to post your tune.)

edit: also try scanning for "Delivered Trans Torque" and "AFR Commanded" with the HPT

Okay ill test a few things are you wanting a copy of my tune or no?

I know im losing power with the high kr. What SHOULD kr be at? I didnr see it go to 11 last night.

Even more reason to reach out to him. Not saying he did something wrong, more that he probably knows just as much about how to fix that KR and TPS reading in combination with all the other work you've had done to your car.

Yeah soon enough.

sleepyalero
09-29-2013, 04:43 PM
Okay i have some pics for you guys on what plugs are being used for the F40 and what plugs are not being used.

Dont mind the wires showing, i pulled off the electrical tape that was covering everything, and the green wire you will see is to my Oil pressure gauge. That will also be cleaned up when i upgrade to AEM oil and volt gauges.



Here are the plugs i have found so far not being used. First pic is on back of trans, second is on top near shift linkage.

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad58/natesalero/181EE3A1-25A7-4A44-9CD4-C26CD4578FA8-1320-00000102161ACFF9_zps931ac53e.jpg
http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad58/natesalero/FF206FAB-132C-4B33-8DC8-5A021CBAE060-1320-000001022CEBD86C_zpse803a0b2.jpg

And it looks like a red and black wire was added into the harness, goes into the fire wall, not 100% sure what its for yet.

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad58/natesalero/BC812F37-8967-4134-9061-213FCD8C1AD1-1320-000001023169C631_zps149c0220.jpg




And heres the plugs being used.

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad58/natesalero/648142DA-1004-4788-B0ED-0448D39C38EF-1320-000001022714C972_zps57d7ae0a.jpg
http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad58/natesalero/AAEA48BF-3DE0-4371-8635-E0F79FF66467-1320-000001021C8C227C_zpsd5ce4d76.jpg




pics seem to be huge, but you can see all connectors very well!

AaronGTR
09-29-2013, 05:51 PM
Okay ill test a few things are you wanting a copy of my tune or no?

I know im losing power with the high kr. What SHOULD kr be at? I didnr see it go to 11 last night.



Yeah soon enough.

Ideally, it should be zero. You don't want kr of any kind. You lose power and it's hard on your engine.

sleepyalero
09-29-2013, 06:17 PM
And how do you exactly eliminate KR

AleroB888
09-29-2013, 07:27 PM
here's a 2000 diagram, not sure if it's the same for '01, though
(courtesy of OnefastV6)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o262/O1gagt/2000GAGT20WayConnector_zpsf715b129.gif

mfuller
09-29-2013, 07:38 PM
And how do you exactly eliminate KR
Eliminatuion of knock retard usually entails several things.
Most commonly, adjustments to fueling and ignition timing, but KR can also be triggered by various mechanical issues.

PhantomLover007
09-29-2013, 08:01 PM
I had a lot of KR when Aaron scanned mine before he moved to lower Canada..

O1GAGT
09-29-2013, 09:14 PM
I would be interested in seeing a copy of the .hpt file as I have both DHP and HPT programs. I am curious to see what happens if we were to change the transmission type to manual via tiny tuner. http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?33669-Manual-Swap-What-is-trans-type-variable

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o262/O1gagt/Transtype_zps082487c0.jpg (http://s122.photobucket.com/user/O1gagt/media/Transtype_zps082487c0.jpg.html)


If you want to give it a try, I can change it and send you back the file.

sleepyalero
09-29-2013, 11:27 PM
I would be interested in seeing a copy of the .hpt file as I have both DHP and HPT programs. I am curious to see what happens if we were to change the transmission type to manual via tiny tuner.


If you want to give it a try, I can change it and send you back the file.

hmmmm.... could quite possibly help out... PM me your email, and ill shoot it over to ya.

thanks man.


i just noticed, you live in indy. lol as do i.

sleepyalero
09-29-2013, 11:28 PM
I had a lot of KR when Aaron scanned mine before he moved to lower Canada..

thanks matt.

phantom, did you ever get that KR sorted out?

HOYS
10-01-2013, 09:47 AM
I would be interested in seeing a copy of the .hpt file as I have both DHP and HPT programs. I am curious to see what happens if we were to change the transmission type to manual via tiny tuner. http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?33669-Manual-Swap-What-is-trans-type-variable

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o262/O1gagt/Transtype_zps082487c0.jpg (http://s122.photobucket.com/user/O1gagt/media/Transtype_zps082487c0.jpg.html)


If you want to give it a try, I can change it and send you back the file.

I don't know if that would do much. From what I've gathered through research the trans type is just a number that switches the solenoid logic between the 45 and 65.

sleepyalero
10-01-2013, 11:06 AM
Well something i did the other day that was interesting. With the hpt hooked up before i did this the trans V read 0 and the temp read -37. I stuck a resistor in the stock 4t45 plug thats not being used in the temp sensor pin "L" and pin "M" and the tuner then gave me a trans reading. 118* constant with a 3.59 V. Rpms seem to be doing better with that.

mfuller
10-01-2013, 12:00 PM
Well something i did the other day that was interesting. With the hpt hooked up before i did this the trans V read 0 and the temp read -37. I stuck a resistor in the stock 4t45 plug thats not being used in the temp sensor pin "L" and pin "M" and the tuner then gave me a trans reading. 118* constant with a 3.59 V. Rpms seem to be doing better with that.
I'm going to try the resistor trick on mine when I get a chance, as mine reads -37 degrees also. It'd be nice to know if the F40 had provisions for a fluid temperature sender. Although it might not - that's one thing I was disappointed to lose when I swapped out the slushbox - the F40 has no provisions to use an external oil cooler, so I lost my 28,000GVWR B&M Racing trans cooler.

sleepyalero
10-01-2013, 12:08 PM
Let me know if you notice a difference matt. I did .

Im sure you could tap into wires that are connected to the f40 to get a real trans temp reading its just a matter of finding what wires are for what.

For now, im happy with the resistor. Telling the pcm the trans is 118* instead of -37 is a good improvement, and the car seems to like it better seeing the trans temp is now "okay" even though its not really the correct temp.

HOYS
10-01-2013, 12:22 PM
Let me know if you notice a difference matt. I did .

Im sure you could tap into wires that are connected to the f40 to get a real trans temp reading its just a matter of finding what wires are for what.

For now, im happy with the resistor. Telling the pcm the trans is 118* instead of -37 is a good improvement, and the car seems to like it better seeing the trans temp is now "okay" even though its not really the correct temp.

This is somewhat confirming my theories. The car does not like having some wonky values show up and is doing something to protect itself.

You should figure out a way to rig the pressure sensor too :)

AaronGTR
10-01-2013, 01:30 PM
I'm sure there is a way to put a temp sensor in the trans if you wanted to. Even if you had to drill and tap a hole and thread in a coolant temp sensor or something similar. It should be just a simple voltage signal that varies with resistance from temp change. There is lubricating oil in the manual trans, so it will have a temp.

I've heard of race teams and people/companies who plumb in coolers with an electric pump to cool manual tranny's as well. Probably wouldn't need it though unless your car saw regular extended track time.

sleepyalero
10-01-2013, 01:40 PM
This is somewhat confirming my theories. The car does not like having some wonky values show up and is doing something to protect itself.

You should figure out a way to rig the pressure sensor too :)

Good idea. I will look into the harness again and see if i could throw a resistor in for that as well possibly.


Aaron, yeah mine doesnt see much track driving. No need to go that far into it, atleast for now.