Mfuller what do ya think.....

[Sorry_Officer]

Heads are getting done and this is what they are doing...

5 angle valve job, full P&P, the bowl, and...........they are matching the exhaust ports to open up to the same diameter as the header gasket:D I just have to wait for the header to show up and they can finish up the heads. Everything has been gasket matched.

Also that Fel-Pro number you gave me for the head set included everything you need from the heads up except head bolts. It only cost $29.99 at autozone. Just thought I would share that.

[mfuller]

Hmm.....gasket matching is all well and good, but I'd stop short of re-shaping the exhaust ports on the heads to match the round header primaries. Also, you want the exhaust port on the head to be a bit smaller than the header primary to eliminate possible blow-back of the exhaust gases. Everything else sounds great.

[bszopi]

Matt brought up several good points. First of all, the D-shape port in the heads actually causes better airflow out of the head, so you don't want to try to port it to a round opening. Secondly, you want the head ports to be slightly smaller (like Matt mentioned) so that you don't have returning waves getting into the head.

Just as a frame of reference.. how much is this costing you? I just want to (once again) prove the point that local head work can be significantly cheaper than other certain companies. And the nice thing about having it done locally, you know exactly what is being done to the heads. None of this Stage 2 vs Stage 3 crap. Are you having the heads decked at all? I'm sure the shop is doing it to ensure a flat mating surface, but you might want to make sure just in case.

[Sorry_Officer]

I bought the heads used for $150.00 and the work with a 5 angle valve job, full port and polish, bowl work, and gasket matching is probably going to run me around $650 for the heads and $175 for both the upper and lower intake manifolds also ported out.....

No down time on my car except for the switching of the parts when they are finished. All in all probably looking at Under $1000.00 for all the parts done right. Tack on another $750 for full install with my headers. So whats that, $1750.00 at the MOST for my whole upper engine done with headers and INSTALLED. Add $725.00 for the headers.

SA parts may be good, may be proven (well not completely), but still remain overpriced.

[GTManiac]

I know I'm going to totally sound like a :tool: /noob asking thiese questions, but what is the 5 angle valve job and bowl polishing? I'm just asking to know more cause this is a mod happening in the winter for me, so I figure the more I know, the better.

[bszopi]

A 5-angle valve job is when they take a milling machine (can't remember which one right now) and basically smooth out the valve seat. The 5-angle version is when they mill the seat at 5 different angles to get a smoother transition into the head. There are also 3-angle valve jobs (what I have had done on 2 sets of heads before). This one only does 3 angles, so the transition is not as smooth, but still better than stock. As far as bowl work, that is the area right behind the valve. Bowl work normally means working on the casting flaws of the heads, again to provide a better path for air to flow into the combustion chamber.

Thanks for the price breakdown. I didn't want it that detailed, but it actually works better that way for people to compare what you are doing. Those prices are about the same that I have seen at the 2 different shops(one in KS, other in OK) I have had work done at, so basically proves that costs are pretty universal across the nation.

Sounds like you have a pretty good setup coming along. Be sure to take pictures of the process to show everyone what is going on. I would share all my pics, but pics of a Beretta don't really help out GAGT owners...

[Vegeta]

A 5 angle valve job is 4 angles on the seat. I dont remember if the 5th angle is on the valve itself or how they came up with the term 5 angle valve job. Ill see if I can find out again. I got my information from the shop in Phoenix, AZ that did the work on my 3.1.

[Sorry_Officer]

Quick question........for some reason a junk yard told me that their computer said the lower intake manifold from a 2000 Alero is different than a 1999 Grand Am GT. Is this true?? Just wondering......

[mfuller]

Originally posted by Sorry_Officer
Quick question........for some reason a junk yard told me that their computer said the lower intake manifold from a 2000 Alero is different than a 1999 Grand Am GT. Is this true?? Just wondering......
The lowers are the same; the uppers are different from 1999 to 2000 (different EGR).

[Sorry_Officer]

What are the differences visually with the upper from 1999 to 2000.

[mfuller]

Originally posted by Sorry_Officer
What are the differences visually with the upper from 1999 to 2000.
You can only tell by looking at the EGR mount. Here is a pic of the underside of a 3400 upper intake manifold:
http://www.streetarsenal.com/images/3400upperintake.gif
The EGR valve mounts to that appendage on the lower right hand corner. A 2000+ upper doesn't have that appendage; the EGR has a more "direct" mount (sorry, but I can't find a good pic of a 2000+ upper).

[bszopi]

Ok, showing my GAGT lack of knowledge here.... does the 99 GAGT you mention have a 3100 or 3400? If its a 3100, then there are differences between the upper and lower manifolds. The 3100s went to the 3400 design in 2000, so the 99 and 00 3100s are different. An easy way to tell is the amount of bolts holding the upper plenum to the lower manifold. The old style 3100 uses 12 bolts total (2 around each port) whereas the new style 3100 and all the 3400s only have 6 bolts (1 at each port). You can actually see that in Matt's (terrible) pic. There are a couple other differences also: port size is larger for the 3400 style, and the connection method for the heater hose connector by the thermostat is different. On the old style, it is a threaded connection, whereas on the newer style it is a pressure fit connection.

Hope this helps out...

[mfuller]

Originally posted by bszopi
.... does the 99 GAGT you mention have a 3100 or 3400? If its a 3100, then there are differences between the upper and lower manifolds. The 3100s went to the 3400 design in 2000, so the 99 and 00 3100s are different. An easy way to tell is the amount of bolts holding the upper plenum to the lower manifold. The old style 3100 uses 12 bolts total (2 around each port) whereas the new style 3100 and all the 3400s only have 6 bolts (1 at each port).
Brad,
All current generation Grand Am's and Alero's only use the 3400 for the V6 option; only the Malibu comes with a 3100 for a V6. The pic that I posted above is of a 1999 3400 upper manifold. But all 99 and up 3400's use the identical lower manifold.
Slightly off subject, how's the re-ground cam from Crower? (I'm assuming you have been able to tune the motor for it, to some extent anyway.)

[bszopi]

Hmm.. I understand that all 3400s use the same design. What I was wondering though was... he mentioned the difference between a 2000 Alero and 99 GAGT. I thought the GAGTs still came with a 3100 in 99. If not, then my post was just info for other people out there....


As far as how is the cam working? Well, in all honesty, it sucks right now. The old ECM project (utilizing a 3.1 MPFI ECM) didn't work out cause we were having problems figuring out the tuning. So I got a stand-alone ECM from Perfect Power. Well, for the most part, it uses no GM sensors, so I have to figure out how to get signals to it. I was making pretty good progress on it, but then I had a major malfunction with my crank pulley attached timing wheel. And then school started back up. So, between 15hrs of college classes and 40hrs of work a week, I just don't have time right now. Hopefully I can get everything figured out so that when school finishes, I can get it all hooked up and running well. The stock ECM just doesn't take too well to the changes made to the cam. It does idle like a SBC in a hot rod right now though, so that's pretty sweet!! :thumbs:

[AaronGTR]

Just for clarification, all '99 and up GAGT's, some '99 up SE's, and alero GLS etc., came with the 3400 engine. Only the upper intake manifold changed from '99 to 2000 (simplified EGR mount).

Oh, and the machine typically used to grind valve seats is called a verdi valve grinder. It's like a drill press that lines everything up and uses different angled bits to grind the seats. Also, according to my book on engine blue printing, all the angles (typically 3 or 5) are on the head. The work on the valves themselves are called something else. It also says that flow can be greatly improved with good porting, valve seat, and work on the vlave stems. So make sure they do your valve stems.;) :)

[Sorry_Officer]

They are doing everything.........this gfuy has a awesome rep in the area. He is just short of the god of head work.

With all this work......heads, upper intake, lower intake, headers, and etc. do you guys think I will have a problem with the computer at all?? As far air fuel mixtures??

That is going to move a hell of alot more air through the system and I was just wondering if the computer will automatically compensate for that........

Thanks for all the help guys...........

[mfuller]

The only thing I'll say is you may want to watch your A/F ratios.....John has commented to me that his A/F readings after he installed the headers were very high - like 15:1. :eek:
ASE has fatterned up my fuel curve a bit, so I might be okay...we'll see. A FPR may be needed as a band-aid, though.

[Sorry_Officer]

Wasn't that because of his O2 sensor being in the wrong spot??

Also found this on the web, digital LED A/F guage, I wouldn't know how to read it but maybe you do.....

http://www.gadgetseller.com/gauges/index.htm

then click on digital gauges......let me know if this is any good because I was thinking about getting it........