we definately spent a whole lot of time on your pcm. hours at the dyno, plus lots of time the days before, and the day after, and i am doing some more tweaks tomorrow to get your shifting the way i want it.

you picked up about 32 crank hp, which from a camshaft, cold air, and some pcm tuning alone is not bad. if we spent another few hours on the dyno, we might be able to get 5 or so more out of it, but at 100/hr i doubt you want to.

lol...you're definately right mike. I'm already up to my ears in debt. As I said earlier I was just thinking a bit too far ahead of myself.

Where's his timing at? I would think you could get more out of it with more tuning.

Yeah no doubt, something is a little off with Eric's car. Seeing as how I dynoed NA with all the same mods minus the cam & TOG's and put down 176whp. Can you post the graph? How many miles are on the car? I'm sure that you could squeeze out a little more. Also was this done on a mustang or dynojet?

well the only things i think holding his car back were ... humidity was 100%, temp wasn't too bad for lately ... 80's, and i hate to be negative about someone else's product, but his heads are quite restrictive on the exhaust. i didn't have time to get them flowed, but i know for a fact ours flow a lot more.

the car has 84,000 miles i believe. he's running Mobil 1 oil.

this was done on a dynojet, but one that gets calibrated regularly, so not an Egojet. a Mustang load-bearing dyno would be nice, but the closest one i know of is in detroit.

i have a jpeg of the dynoruns now, can someone host?

3x3 - i'm not going to post our timing table we put in, but i will say that it's 3 degrees over stock.

you can email the dyno runs to me and I'll put them on our ded. server...

iceman@grandamgt.com

you got mail

http://www.ice8420.com/iceman/iceman...ic99gtdyno.jpg

click the link and then the pic for full size

http://www.ice8420.com/displayimage.php?pos=-6917

i know those numbers are a little hard to read in that image, they say ...

181.5, 181.1, 183.7 for power

183.2, 180.8, 185.8 for torque

Can you get the before cam sheet?

owner has that one, i don't have it

I'd be willing to bet if you leaned it out, you'd pick up a good amount power.

we tried some things to lean it out, but it didn't have an effect. as i said, we anticipated about 5 or so hp from leaning it out to a flatline of around 13.0.

ok... assuming those runs were back to back.. you really need to let the engine cool down to normal operating temps.... then you will see the real difference the tuning makes. also the power curve is nice and flat... comparing it to my dyno sheet.

there is alot of power under 4k rpm that is not normally seen. also the power stays consistant all the way to redline.

I think the overall increase in usable power is more important than a apex or spike at one point. This is exactly what I was hoping to see.... also keep in mind that "most" with CAI and exhaust should not be seeing 165 horses. that is 20 WHP from Intake and exhaust??? to get 165-175 you will need headers and other bolt on's... unless you are below sea level and dyno'n in 70 degree weather. :erika: :erika: :erika:

:wave: the torque seems low... i would expect more around 200..... also what gear was it dyno'd in.... I have found that 2nd is more accurate from a torque standpoint. it reflects closer to 205 and 175 crank TQ over HP.

What were you tuning with? Powertuner? ICCU?

Another cheap trick, not the best but would work would be to port the maf and remove the screen.

I'll get that for ya soon. I don't know how much you'll be able to compare though because it was done on a mustang dyno. I plan on heading back to the same place to have it dynoed there as well.

It needs to be leaned out. Your running too rich on the top end and if your running 3 degrees more advance than stock your also missing out on power. Tweak these two and I wouldn't be suprised to see a 15whp gain.

I dynoed 184whp & 194 lbs-tq a couple months back. I have another thread on this but I'm right around 29 advance timing. I do believe there is even more power potential with upping the timing to 34-38. Play with the timing and wideband it to keep the fuel in check and of course look for KR.

if you want one of these.... PM me. just pay for shipping and it is yours!

To inform the public, removing the MAF screen is a bad idea and can cause issues such as misfires and causing your car to run very lean. You don't need to worry about outflowing the stock MAF in any way for an NA car. Sure, you can tune around it but its trading off one thing for another... a little more airflow and running pig rich just to keep the computer happy.

I'm not saying there're people out there who've had no problems with removing the MAF screen, I'm just saying that in a car with many bends in the intake tract its a bad idea. People get away with it in LS1 cars all the time because they tune their car for it and the intake path is dead straight.

cars home. Overall i'm pleased. The low end lacks a bit but I guess that can be expected from a cam. Also whenever i'm in the low rpms it doesn't seem to have any power. Hopefully some tuning can fix this. But when i'm pedal to the floor the thing rocks. Pulls very hard up top.

Yeah, I could have told you you were going to loose low end power. I experienced that with my regrind. And that is going to hurt your track times... You won't have the get up and go off the line, so your 60' times will most likely go down. And by the time the cam kicks in (~3k), you'll have some ground to pick up. You will pick it up, but that start is going to hurt in the end...

This is where a higher stall torque converter comes into play. A 2,800 stall would probably be ideal to get you moving just under the power so you can maintain traction.

Yeah it'd be real easy to over cam these cars NA. Supercharged, well thats a whole other story. I guess we'll see ;). I concur that a convertor and possible a gear change would do wonders.

a lot of your lack of lowend could probably be linked to the small amount of torque management remaining. driving at a small amount of throttle at low speeds is the part i couldn't take out the torque management. glad to hear you like the power gain up top though.

HP Tuners tunershop package (the 97-present gm v6 package)

we actually had a maf in there with removed screen, and Eric told me to buy a new MAF with a screen, so I did, and that's what it ran with on the dyno. i don't think it hurt anything to have the screen intact.

also any suggestions as too getting it to run a bit better on startup? I tried starting it up this morning, and after stalling about 7 times it finally stayed running. It's weird too because I try giving it gas when it's sputtering but it doesn't seem to have an effect.

i had better luck when i held the key on for 1/2 second longer.

I still have troubles starting up. I have to hold the key for 4-6 seconds usually. The idle would jump up and down between 500-1800 and it would stall every now and then. After about 3-4 weeks of driving the idle smoothed out and it hasn't stalled on mine in a while. Everything runs smoothly besides misfires here and there.

This lack of low end is becoming noticable. Earlier on it seemed as if I had gained some ... but now when I take off from a light it seems as if it takes forever to get to 3-3.5k rpms.

Shift points are also a problem. A good shift only occurs if I manu-shift the auto (which is bad) and have it shift at 6700 or 6800. If it shifts any lower the car seems to fall completely on its face in all of 2nd gear.

you have a DHP pcm don't you? have you contacted them about the torque management, b/c this is what could be causing this problem ... basically when your car sees about 208 ft-lbs of torque, it kicks in torque management and increases torque reduction. then another table sees the torque reduction, and applies about 14.9 degrees of KR. this takes your timing advance to about 0 degrees, and you lose a huge amount of power. when i say huge, to give you an idea, we had a couple dyno runs when torque management was still engaging, and the car made between 90-105 whp, so about 1/2 of the power was lost.

your valvetrain in your heads is definately good for much more than 7k rpm, so that's not a big deal, i'm just not sure what the limit is that you can spin the bottom end to. the best way to decide on shift points is to base it off of a dyno run.

i'm not going to deny that a stage 2'd car could benefit from a converter, but if you're having extreme loss of lowend, that sounds more like torque management.

so i'd say get a hold of DHP and see what you can come up with. another option would be buying another stock pcm, and i can flash it with the parameters you need. i'm going to be in detroit this next weekend doing a couple cam installs in some 3100 monte carlos, so if you want to get it done when i'm up there, let me know.

I still have my stock pcm... If we could meet up somewhere to get the pcm flashed, that would be awesome.

i'll give you a call today about it.

oh forgot to mention this in my earlier post, but remember when i talked to you yesterday when you picked your car up ... i said if it does that, and you lift your foot off the gas pedal, and put it back, it should go away. that's what i found while driving it around that last day while scanning.

Torque management is actually extremely easy to remove, however, exercise caution when doing this. You can always increase the Max torque on upshift values. Eliminate the injector shutoff, and richen up the torque abuse A/F. Also remove the torque abuse timing removal.

Again, you Will do siginificant damage to your stock differential if you remove too much of the torque management. It is there for a reason ;) Also, although this should be obvious... Stay far away from WOT with the wheels turned...

This may sound odd, but has anyone removed the MAF from a 3400 and disabled it through the computer so they are only running off the MAP sensor? I know a guy who has done this on a supercharged 4.3L s-10 and he is putting down 400 HP to the wheels while tuning with ls1 edit. I was told this makes tuning easier.

Um, if you still have a stock pcm you aren't shifting at 6800rpm. Stock redline is 6000 and shift point is 5800. My DHP raised rev limiter to 6300 and shift point to 6200 at WOT. With those heads you may be able to spin 7k (and thats questionable) but there's no way you can do that with the stock bottom end and have it last. Also shifting at that kind of rpm with an increased power level, if you remove any torque management you are likely to break the transmission if it's stock as well.

There are folks that are doing this for VE tuning, but not a permanent removal. It would be something to consider, however, I would not want to risk it with only a 1bar map sensor.

Why not? Early 3100s (ie, my old one) ran off of MAP only.

I meant that I still have it, in a box. I never refunded the core. I have DHP currently in the car.

Let me clarify... I would not want to risk it, since I am not N/A, with only a 1bar map sensor. In other words, under boost, the PCM would have no idea the amount of air making it's way into the engine....