he had S&S headers, SLP cat-back, cai, etc. we installed our NA2 cam, stage 2 heads, and ported upper and lower intakes. he's still on 56mm tb. he told me that he did not notice qa difference putting the headers on, even though that yields what, a 15-20hp gain for you guys? he said he felt a big difference with the new parts, over the entire powerband, even down low.

the install ... fun stuff. we started saturday about 6pm, and quit around midnight. i had loaned my cherry picker to the shop, and they lost my engine pulling chain, so atleast two of those hours were spent trying to pull the engine like a redneck. the next morning, i bought a new chain, got started around 11:30, and pulled the motor, then we worked on it all day. long story short, it kept giving us hell the whole time, but we got the car started late sunday night. that was the first cam and heads install, so i knew it'd take a while, that and i was anal about every single thing i did.

how will the other years react to the switching of the cam sensors, is the pcm gonna give any problems to those who aren't of the new style?

we've got it covered :)

I'm still not 100% convinced with that... The cam trigger (no matter what sensor you use) will be high 50% of the time and low the other 50% of the time. The previous years, it was either high or low for ~5% of the time and the opposite for the rest of the time. I'm not sure how the PCM is going to react to that. As I stated when I first brought it up a couple days ago, the rising edge of the trigger looks to be in the same place, so as long as it triggers by that, it SHOULD work. But it will only be known when someone with an older motor installs the cam with the new sensor.

If someone has a different theory on why it should work, please feel free to explain...

I am sure we all can agree on this statement!

Congrats on the sponsorship Mike! Really glad to have you aboard, and really glad to have some cams running around too! :)

To explain what the PCM is seeing, I made a diagram.

http://www.60degreev6.com/CAD/cam_triggering.jpg

The 3X crank trigger and 94-99 cam trigger I know are correct because they are out of a GM technical manual. Since the 00-02 trigger is just the inverse of the 94-99 trigger, is should be correct also, although the sensor may actually flip the signal to be the same as the previous by adjusting when the +5V ref is applied. The 03+, no matter what, is going to be sending a different signal to the PCM. As I drew it, it looks as if it will work, but I'm not 100% that is how it operates.

Now everyone has a graphical representation of what I've been trying to say and can go back to ignoring me...

Thanks a lot Brad, that really shed some light on the sensor differences, for me at least. I'll be installing the cam with an '03+ sensor on my car so we'll find out how it works in a '00. I'll bet someone else will have theirs running before me but, maybe not... I should be ready to crank it in a couple weeks.

Man this stuff is intersting. I am an engineer and can relate to that drawing. But I know jack squat about how the cam triggers and such vary throughout the 99-04 models. BUt I can't wait to see what all these installs on that 03 GAGT can do dyno wise!!!!!:)

Hey Jason, PM me... I just graduated from K-State in December...

Here are actual pictures of the different triggers so people can see what I'm talking about.

94-99 Missing Tooth Trigger
http://60degreev6.com/hlperf/Beretta...nt/Image29.jpg

00-02 Single Tooth Trigger
http://60degreev6.com/hlperf/Beretta...+_3x00_cam.jpg

03+ 50/50 Semi Circle Trigger
http://www.60degreev6.com/images/Pus...amtrigger5.jpg

I've read through the schematics for all three types of CMP triggers. It recieves 12 volt reference from the PCM, has a signal output, and a ground (low reference).

All three sensors have these wires in common. Within the CMP sensor there is a hall effect sensor which controls a switch. This switch is normally closed providing a 12V signal back to the PCM.

When the hall effect sensor is tripped by the rotation of the cam (IE the single-tooth, missing tooth, or leading edge in the '03+) the hall effect sensor completes the circuit between 12v reference and low reference, grounding the 12Vs to the PCM. This causes a short voltage spike to the PCM CMP signal circuit which reads a minor part of that spike and sends the rest of the voltage spike through a resistor and back to ground.

The interpretation of the different tooth designs is internal to the cam sensor itself. The output is not changed because there is still a hall effect sensor reading the cam reluctor.

The only change to worry about is swapping two wires when using the '03+ sensor. GM decided to switch the terminal locations within the connector and also removed the pigtail that every '02 and older cam sensor is equipped with. MMS is currently investigating a plug and play solution to allow the '03+ cam sensor to be easily adapted to work with any '02 and earlier model PCMs.

I'll also note that through all three designs the CMP sensor signal, 12v reference and low reference circuits have not changed in the PCM.

Im done with school now :boogie: I guess I know have more work cut out for me.

If you guys havent figured it out yet, I am the designer of Milzy's site. I couldnt let him take all the credit lol My name is Matt, and any of you guys can email me at: matts@milzymotorsports.com if you have any site questions, comments, etc.

the vid of the cam is sweet Mike! I am very impressed.

Forteen3gt, what vid? I wanna see!

Video?

Thats basically what Milzy told me too. Sounds like it should work just fine then as long as you switch those two wires on the harness connector.

Do you happen to know what the positions of the wires are in the '03+ sensor plug? I have a manual for my '00 so I have the wiring diagrams and connector layouts for that. I just need to know which wires to switch. I could have my dad look it up for me in the '03 manual at work tommorrow if you don't have the info handy.

vid is posted under another site..... sure Mike was concerned with bandwidth...

just check out the site for the worlds #1 hated vendor!!! hint hint! :whistle:

How 'bout giving the rest of us a better hint? I know of many vendors considered to be world's most hated....

hahahahaha very funny... I don't know if he wanted to give this out.

another hint....

they do "cookie cutter" PCM's! lol

Good god...just say INTENSE.

www.intense-racing.com

I stopped reading after the second page but how many people if anyone has used the 3x00 cam from here? http://www.milzymotorsports.com/

I must be blind then...'cause I can't find it. Or they took it down already.

wrong site! but close!! lol... this is fun... maybe too much of this!! ------------> :ec:

I think you are reading the schematics wrong... And you obviously don't understand the basics behind ALL hall-effect sensors.

http://www.picotech.com/auto/tutoria...r-signals.html

I'm just wondering how you know the circuitry on the cam sensors. Did you somehow find that on schematics as well? Do we need to get an o-scope out and scope some of these to show that the hall effect sensor does indeed send a square wave (as determined by the size of the notch on the cam) to the PCM and not a spike as you think? So far, I've shown diagrams from official GM tech manuals and you've posted basic info on hall-effect sensors that is wrong. Unless of course, GM for some odd reason redesigned their hall-effect sensors to send out a pulse, but they decide to keep calling them hall-effect sensors to trick everyone.

In short, show me your proof, and then maybe you can attempt to convince me...

Not many yet considering he just got the first batch and shipped them out to us this week. I got mine on monday. Installing it this weekend but won't have the engine in and running for a while since I'm waiting on a custom radiator. xxxblackhillxxx has a stage2 cam and heads that Milzy installed on his car last weekend. I've seen the vid for it and it sounds sweet! He's planning on a custom dyno tune soon. I don't know about everyone else, but the first run of these was a group order (like 8-10 I believe), and they should all have theirs soon if not already.

Link to the vid would make this a whole lot easier. I should have known Tom was going to be the first GA with the cam, he mentioned he had some surprises up his sleeves.

http://www.ez112.com/videos/MVI_0404.AVI


edit

right click, save as

there ya go, beat me to it. that's a friend's site hosting it ... please right click, save as

First. I'm not describing how a hall effect sensor works. I was describing how the CMP sensor works based on the schematics I was given.

Here they are. If you have a different interpretation feel free to speak it.

:drool:

Wow... you got your explanation of off those schematics? Unfortunately, the srceen shots are too small to really read most of what is on there, but you can get some understanding out of it. The switch shown in the sensor will operate as in the link I gave you. IOW, whenever there is change in the distance from the sensor to the ferrous metal (ie, cam) the switch will move positions. Its like putting 2 magnets together with the same polarities facing each other. From a distance, nothing happens. When you bring them together, the weaker will be pushed away by the stronger. This doesn'y happen for just a spike, but for the entire time that the magnets are close together. Therefore, when the cam position sensor is close to the metal, it will give one signal, and when it is further away, it will give another signal. The resistor you see in the diagram is just representative of the internals of a chip inside the PCM. In order for voltage to flow through a wire, you must have a complete path for it to flow. The 12V wire and GND wire going to the sensor provide a reference signal to the sensor. The actual signal is then that 12V, but it also needs a GND of its own. The wire goes back to the PCM and into a chip. How the chip works is really way to indepth for most people to understand, but it is basically just a whole lot of transistors. All transistors will have their own GND to complete any signal coming into them. Therefore, to complete the path of current flow, the signal passes through the transistor and to the chip's GND. The transistor takes the square wave produced by the signal and sends it along to the rest of the system.

Just basic digital circuitry....

:whistle: lol

How come GM changed the design 3 times?

JEEZ tom, that is the coolest thing I've ever heard come out of a GA. what did the whole setup cost you, cam + parts +install?

As far as the change in 2003, here is what GM has to say...

"The 3.1L front camshaft journal has been revised with a new timing pattern. This journal is now machined with 50/50 pattern of raised and lowered semi circles, rather than a single boss or lug. The operating principal for ignition and fuel injection timing has not changed, but the new timing pattern requires a slightly smaller cam sensor and modifications to the fuel injection wiring harness. The new timing pattern was introduced in anticipation of future development."

Cammed GA = the new hotness! MORE VIDS, that was sick.

Is it really any different than this?

http://www.60degreev6.com/hlperf/94Beretta.wmv

Oh, and if whoever is hosting is really worried about bandwidth, change the format. Its sad when a 24sec video is 8+MB. Mine is over 2 1/2 minutes and its only 2.3MB....

Tom you think you can break 14s now? lol How does it feel? Are you going to hit the track soon? Give us some personal opinions.

Didn't I say this a few posts back?

haha I don't think he cares too much.