i made it halfway before giving up. good points tho.

DEE DEE DEE :hammer:

wtf?

Funky Pup > *

i'm sorry, but there is no way that boston makes a better sounding woofer than the W7. having heard 90% of their products, i can assure you that it is impossible. the fact that you are still arguing that the wrong companies were invited indicates to me that you haven't been into car audio for that long, because if you were, you would KNOW that all the drivers on that list (with the exception of the solo x) are big time sql drivers. not just really loud, not just sounding clean, but both. i tried to explain to you previously that none of the companies you mentioned have any driver that is on the level of those tested, but that post clearly went over your head. i'm glad pioneer got an spl record with 10+kw of power and 18 subs (or however many they used) but that does NOT mean that they make a decent sql driver. winning an spl competition is very different from getting loud AND sounding good. now to say alpine is overrated is a bit of a farce if you ask me. the type R's are probly the best budget sub on the market. alpine has amongst the best, if not the best, HU's (although the AVIC's are better in terms of in-dash dvd players) so i don't see where that accusation comes from.

if you're buying a W7 for $1000, you're getting screwed. the W7 will still beat your beloved g5's because it has way more excursion and more linear displacement. the double cone area of the 2 g5's in your example is defeated by the W7's higher power handling and excursion. 130's for 1 W7? i think if you're hitting less than 140 with a 10W7 or larger, you've screwed up.

i'm sorry, but you simply are not going to be able to convince anyone who knows anything that a W7 is not a superior driver. your original post did not ever mention price, so i'm not going to include that, although i will say i would rather get an xbl^2 tech driver for less than shell out the money for a W7. but barring that, the W7 is the next on the list because it is that good and that's all there is to it.

I love these threads. No one's opinion ever changes.

Listen to as many subwoofers you can yourself, and make up your own mind about what is the "best," because "best" is insanely objective.

Take me for example. I personally think nothing is better than the W7, even looking at cost to performance. JL went above and beyond EVERYTHING. I've lost track of how many patents they have on the driver. It has impressed me with everything it does, whether that be SPL or SQ. It really is an amazing driver.

Next, I hate the Brahma / XXX. IMO, they sound like poop no matter what enclosure you toss them in.

Arguing about something like this is arguing about who's penis is bigger. Why? Because we all know mine is the biggest ;)

just out of curiosity, how long have you been in the car audio scene?

Edit: and if you get your head out of your ass and reread metallman's last post you would realise that he is saying two bostons are better than one w7 when it comes to price. you get basically the same bang and quality out of the two as the one w7 and save alot more money in the process. thank you, and have a good day. :clueless:

admittedly, only about 3 years. but i have heard a LOT of different drivers, hence where the strong opinion comes in. heh

yeah, my last post was a little strong minded. it's all opinion.

exactly, if you notice my edit you will see that metallman had an entirely different point than you interpreted.

did you read what i put about the W7 not being $1000 and that it will be louder and sound just as good if not better?

he is right about the price, a 12w7 retails for $799. they must have come down on it sence i was looking into them about a year ago. they used to be a grand. any way there is no way that 1 w7 could take 2 g5s. have you ever heard a g5? alot of people havent. i am not saying that the w7 is better than a g5! i am saying that a g5 is one hell of a better value. ported the w7 got up to 144.3 db, and sealed 140.7db. acording to this test. sealed boxes are the way to go for sound quality. any woofer sounds like crap at high volume in a ported box when listening to music. i said music not rap. again the bostons would get probley mid 140s sealed. i have no doubt about that. i have heard the w7 and g5 back to back and to be 100% honest the boston sounds cleaner, and crisper. you dont have to be a car audio genuis to pick up on that. my girlfriend who hates car audio even picked up on it. i dont know the excursion is for a w7 but i know the g5 is 3". that means theres 6" of travel for the cone. thats the size of a dollar. now but that dollar next to anthor and you have a foot. between the 2 woofers they can move upto a foot of air. i am positive the w7 comes no where near that. boston makes a better sounding woofer jl makes a louder woofer. i am really getting sick of this damn argument. neither of us are gaining traction. lets just agree to disagree.
i have never heard a good sounding alpine anything. ever.

the g5 is 3" peak to peak excursion. there actual xmax is 15.5 mm, while the 12W7 is 29 mm. and not all ported boxes sound like crap at high volume.

i'm done discussing this

ok you we can drop it but i need to know have you ever heard a g5 and w7 next to each other? answer this and there will be no more discussion.

not side by side, but yes, i have heard both woofers

thankyou

don't see how that has any real reference one way or the other, but ok!

I had 2 12" Image Dynamics powered by a 600W PhoenixGold Amp... seen here and LOVED it

http://www.phoenixgold.com/2004/imag...rs/ti600.2.jpg

IDQ's?

And Two IDv3's are half the price of one boston, so now why don't we get 8 ID's instead of 2 bostons? They will massacre the bostons in sq and spl, and are still cheaper, so why don't we get them? Oh, but wait, 2 inifinty refs are less than 1 idv3, and we can get 16 of them for less than the idv3 and be louder and sound better... See where this is going? You can never get an adequate price/performance ratio cuz everyones budget/opinion is different. But a bunch of blind tests about performance and sound quality gives you a good idea about how they perform in relation to each other. Pair that with the fact that the prices are easy to find, and you have everything needed for someone to make up their OWN decision. I mean here it is, you start the thread about best sub ever, and now you're talking about how cost effective a sub is??? That thread gave excellent subjective and objective data on a level that is far beyond what has been in this thread. Sure the subs in there might not be someones favorite, and there are no guarantees that the ones in there are the best, but they are some of THE best in the audio scene. Punkorama is right about the level/type of woofers being tested. And I don't know what you read, but I didn't see where in that thread they stated "best sub ever".

Also, if someone thinks having the best stuff gives them the basis to talk like they are gods gift, then they have some bigger issues than car audio.

On a side point, you need to get more familiar with distortion. By the time your sub starts to pop, you are into some major distortion...probably at least 20%. There is a test I know of that will help you quantify your ability to detect distortion. If you test yourself regularly then it will also help you improve your ability to detect it. I'll try to find it and post it up later.

You should delete this post, cuz shows how very little you know about audio.

noticeable distortion (like what the hell was that distortion) is generally once the driver is reaching 15% more excursion than it's rated xmax (the driver is no longer considered linear). if it's popping, you are really screwing it.

on a side note, thank god someone else knows what they're talking about, lol.

I know what you mean. lol

Here is the klippel listening test:
http://www.klippel.de/aura/default.html

Take the test several times and you'll get an idea of what you really can hear. IIRC, the first time I took it I got down to -24db, and I was able to pull it off a good 25% of the time, but my average is -18db.

too bad all he can do is edit posts, shows how much you know about this forum. seriously, unless you design and manufacture these items yourselves, i doubt anybody (not just you aaron) has the most knowledge of these items. :teacher:

I would have editted out of my post. I know plenty about this forum, and have been on it many years.

And I'm not saying I know everything about audio. My only issue is all of the completly 100% false information he is pawning off. Like boston is good sound, jl is loud...and ported boxes don't have any sq and are only good for rap.

werd. i could care less what company's woofer you prefer, but if you're going to argue that one company's woofer is better than another's, you had best have some knowledgeable info to back it up, and there has been nothing but misinformation in some of the posts.

Awesome post!!!! :rockon:

holy hell. let me respond to all at once, or let me try i will probley leave alot of crap out but here goes.
yeah thats a great idea lets put 16 infinitys in a grand am or almost any midsized car, thats a hell of a great idea. no trunk room, no back seat, probley no passenger seat. good call. practicallity is huge. sure 2 subs would take up alot more room than one, but you can still put stuff in it. i see your piont but really who can put 8 or 16 subs in anything no bigger than a truck or van?
on distortion good call. i will be honest i dont know alot of %s or any of that crap, but i do know that the "poping" sound generally means that the speaker is overpowerd. really overpowerd to the piont of blowing. theres where the distortion really comes in. we have all heard blown speakers and know how awful they sound. but regular distortion does not sound like a poping, that was my bad i should have been more specific.
are you going to argue that boston doesnt sound good, jl isnt loud, and ported boxes really are not good for sq? so i guess bostons sound like crap, jl isnt loud, and ported boxes sound great for all types of music, not just a bassline put in by a cpu. ok. fine by me. now i am sure that basslines are not put in by a cpu and theres going to be a whole nother backlashing about that but i think you get the piont. a sealed box will take the sq away from a ported box any day, and the ported will be louder any day. its what your into to determine what box is right for you.
misinformation punkorama? "the g5 is 3" peak to peak excursion. there actual xmax is 15.5 mm, while the 12W7 is 29 mm. and not all ported boxes sound like crap at high volume. i'm done discussing this" xmax is max excursion either in or out. if the w7s is 29mm that must means it can travel 58mm. how many inches is that? i forgot you guys were on the metric system up there. please tell us how much 58mm is in inches. you can even round up. oh and its a good thing your done discussing this.
you 2 must think i hate jl and are on there payroll. or just die hard jl fans. either way I DONT HATE JL!! they make good stuff. as i said i wanted a jl about a year ago. i decided to go wtih boston b/c they were cheaper and, i thought, sounded cleaner and clearer. that was after listening to them back to back. not only once but atleast 5 times. i dont care if you hate boston or love them or hate jl or love them i really dont. it doesnt matter.
now its time to double team me write 20 posts before i can respond to the first, tell me i dont know what i am talking about, tell me to delete my forums, and all the good. stuff. so feel free. what ever you want to say say it. dont correct each other or anything let me do that. but hey you have to admit this forum is raising some good pionts from everyone, which is exactly what i wanted.
oh one last thing. if anyone can find a test between any w7 and the pioneer spl5000, i would love to see it. please post it.
thanks guys your the best!:flag:

you said that it has six inches of peak to peak excursion, which is wrong. and the 3" of excursion they list is non-linear, meaning that at that level of excursion, the driver is suffering from distortion. btw, it's not just that i use the metric system, it is standard in the audio industry to list xmax in mm. and 58 mm is roughly 2.25", but remember that is linear excursion. regardless of the bold type they put on their ads "OVER 3"s OF EXCURSION!!!", the xmax (the most excursion while remaining linear) is the term that matters, and the W7 is just short of double the xmax as the g5. that is why i said you're providing misinformation, because you are :D
i think you missed the 489728907 times before that i said THE SPL5000 IS AN SPL DRIVER AND IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO MAKE A COMPARISON BETWEEN AN SPL DRIVER AND AN SQL DRIVER!!! maybe the SPL5000 will score higher in the measured output test, but it will easily lose in any listening competition.

well then you had better sue boston for some false advertising especially if you can find bold print where they say over 3". sounds like you know more about the woofer than the people that made it.
you know what screw it. this isnt going anywhere. i could make a few more pionts but i am going to save everyones time. if you noticed that this all started from a unfair comparision of woofers. all i wanted was to see how more woofer would do. but god forbid, because this was a perfect test but on by god himself. i mean why make a test better than it is? why make anything better than it is? like a car sterio. but who am i to judge? no one or nothing could ever be better than a jl woofer. so this is just pointless. i now see that jl is the best choice for car audio, and any other type of listening experiance. i will trade everything in for jl because they are the best. and if anybody ever disagrees i will take up arms and do what i can to stop such an evil. my eyes are now open to the beautiful jl audio, and it is heaven on earth.
i dont care what you say about the jl VS the pioneer i want to see a test between the 2. lets just put them together and see what happens. cant hurt, hell i will even let someone barrow my spl5000 for the test.

fock nukes, sarcasm is the weapon of the future!

it says right on there website that it has 3" of excursion. i'm not arguing that it doesn't, i'm arguing that the excursion they list doesn't matter because in the real world, xmax matters. conveniently, in their owner's manuals they do not ever mention 3" of excursion, they only mention the 15.5 mm of xmax. sounds like a good advertising ploy to me, does it not? it clearly convinced you previously, guess it works.

i never maintained that JL audio is the best in the world, just made an attempt to prove to you why it is not so terrible that it should be dismissed just because it's a more expensive driver.

if you would like to do the test, go right ahead. i wouldn't waste my own time with it because i can assure you of the general results already, but all the power to ya!

here in the states there's something called false advertising. from your post it seems you are inferring that they are saying 3" excursion as a marketing ploy. if you moved to the USA you could make alot of money off of suing them for false advertising. i would highly recommend this, you might be able to afford more bacon.

last time i checked metallman never said it was "terrible" he only said it was overpriced for what you are getting, and that there are other similar options out there for a lower price.

btw, you sunk alot of your own arguments on that last comment.

We we can argue the price/performance ratio all damn day long....and what will it determine about woofer performance?....nothing. The point is, compare one sub to one sub if you are trying to get hard data about sub performance.

Before I get into the xmax issue let me add that false advertising is rampant in the car audio industry. I got into car audio in the early 90's, and it was already an issue back then. I'm sure you have already known of this though, as everyone has heard of amps that don't put out nearly as much as they claim/underrated. It's hear to stay, so we need to be educated about our purchases to get around it. The reason nobody sues is cuz it just ain't worth it. Their cashflow can afford a much better legal team than you can afford. All you would do is waste a bunch of money to prove what everyone already knows, and it still wouldn't stop it from occuring.

With that said, boston is a very reputable manuf. and we know they are not going to lie. Now onto the xmax/xmech issue. *edit/rewording* Not everyone calculates xmax and xmech the same way.*edit* One trick the cheaper companies will do is list xmech instead. So lets define the two.

Xmax is the measure of linear cone motion. There are several ways of detemining xmax, and most are theoretical. For example, Eminence lists their xmax as the voicecoil overhang. So all they do is take the voicecoil length, subtract the thickness of the top plate, and divide by to. Notice how they divided by two, which shows us that their xmax figures represents a one-way measurement.

Xmech is typically refered to as the maximum physical motion of the cone, which means we are at the physical extremes of cone movement. Not all subs have the motor strength to reach this number, which means they may or may not be able to displace this much volume. For example the pop you hear when turning a sub up to far is caused by the voicecoil hitting the back plate. At that moment, the sub is at its maximum rear travel, which is physically limited due to the cone hitting the backplate. To contiue with the Eminence example, they determine Xmech by taking the lowest of 4 different measurements and multiply by 2. Those measurements are the distant required to have the spider hit the top plate, the coil leaving the gap coming out of the core magnetic field, the voicecoil hitting the backplate, or the suspension limited movement of the cone. Notice that they multiplied this measurement by two, which represents total motion of the cone. As you can see, if you are pushing the sub to these limits, it isn't sounding good and you are pretty much destroying the driver.

As I had mentioned earlier, these are theoretical methods of measuring driver displacement. A physical example of measuring it would be DUMAX. I mention this cuz boston owns one of these very expensive machines. I know this cuz the inventor of the dumax is a member of a local audio club that I belong to. He also employs Tom Nousaine, who you should recognize from Mobile Electronics, who is also a member of the club. Check out the inventors description of the dumax. http://www.dlcdesignaudio.com/services/dumax.htm

So when we see boston claim 3"(76.2mm) of peak to peak excursion, we know they are talking about the physical limit of the cone, and not the linear motion of the cone which is 30mm (15mm Xmax x 2). Since metal was comparing to the w7, lets check out it's specs again. Xmax is 29mm, so 58mm linear. So as we can see, the w7 has about the same linear displacement as 2 g5's. And from bs'ing with Manville Smith of JL, he mentioned about 4" peak to peak. Even in the icix review posted earlier they state,
That even reenforces Manville's comments. And since BA owns a DUMAX, I'm gonna guess their numbers are dumax verified, like the w7.

So there we go, displacement in a handbasket. I hope it was informative.

just one little nit-picky thing thats off topic, but about your post. you mentioned how a lawsuit is basically pointless cause these companies can afford better legal teams. false advertising is one of the easiest things to prove, and in the long run, no legal team can defend what is on paper and what is that rockhard. why else do people get away with lawsuits against mcdonalds and other huge corporations? if your proof is better than their fancy words, its an easy win. thats all i gotta say.

Ya, but what do you do when the amp can produce 1600watts into a 1ohm load, even though it is 80% distortion and blows 2 seconds later? It is still a 1600 watt amp at that point. This is why cae-2006 is so crucial.

wow, a pi$$ing contest. ive been known to join with these.

my view on the best woofer ever takes several criteria into consideration:
1) purchase price
2) efficiency (output/watt)
3) honest ratings
4) dependability
5) flexability (ie: can be used for lots of bass and has good SQ)
6) something that ive test extensively

several subs come to mind that would compete:
- Eclipse 88-series aluminum subs froma few years ago (i havnt tested the newer ones)
- Crystal CMP
- JL audio w6v2 series
- Aura Force (discontinued several years ago)
- Image dynamics IDQ

my top pick is the Aura Force 12. it retailed at $150, was rated to take 250 watts RMS, and was the cleanest SQ sub ive heard ( the crystal came close). with only 200 watts RMS it was almost as loud as my 2 10w6v2s. It had an aluminum cone, and it looked really nice.
http://www.particles.de/paradocs/r11...ce_10_12_b.jpg

while it is crucial that amps are rated with a certain standard, cae-2006 is still not quite what i wish it was. they require things be rated at 14.4 volts, when (imo) everything should be rated at no more than 13.8. you'll find that most of the best companies rate their amps at either 12.6 or 13.8, which is very refreshing to see when some companies have actually gotten their ratings from measurements made at 18 v, lol.
and ajaxus, welcome to car audio. it's not always so much that they are blatantly doing false advertising, it's more that they are misleading. it seems that reading comprehension has owned you so far, so i will simply quote what i said previously and hopefully after reading it a second time, you'll understand:
unfortunately, metallman started a thread titled "what is the best woofer ever?" rather than a thread titled "what woofer has the best price vs. performance?" and at many times has said that the W7 is overrated, which unfortunately for him, it is not. overpriced, perhaps, but overrated, no.

and if you would care to explain how i "sunk a lot of my own arguments", i'd be happy to go over it again, lol.

There are things about cae-2006 that I dont like as well, but as long as there is one standard for comparing so the general public can see what brands are reputable, I'm all for it.

wow this is turnig into a war. miaaron thanks for clearing that up for all of us. it seems as though confussion was set in by differnt ways of measering excursion. you have obviously been into car audio longer than probley me and punkorama compined. again thankyou for clearing things up.
also what you said about amps and outout what did you think about cheater amps a few years back. the ones that were rated 2ohms 1watt and at 1 ohm they would put out a thousand or so. i dont remember the numbers but it was something like that.
punkorama, if you read your post about the bostons 3" excursion you clearly say that boston has, in bold print mind you, MORE THAN 3" OF EXCURSION. that is why i dont you to sue them, because they dont claim more than, they just say 3". guess you didnt get that. its hard to have a good conversation with someone who wont take there head out of there ass long enough to realize when they made a mistake, but when others do it look out! all hell is about to break loose. i never said jl was terible, again i was looking into buying a w7 before the g5 came out. i wanted to give boston a chance because i really like the 12.5 woofer they had before the g5. the closest boston retailer to my house was in ft.wayne which is about a 90minute drive. they had orderd 2 for me, of the g5s, and i was one of the first to get a pair in the state. any way before i bought it, of course i had to hear what it sounded like. although we couldnt push it to hard, because it wasnt broken in yet, i thought it kept up with the w7, and in sq was better. that is why i went with bostons. honestly i do not think the g5 is the best woofer out there. it would probey be in top 10 but it wouldnt take #1. its hard to say what would, and its hard to judge woofers, with the naked ear, without hearing them back to back. so in my opinion i dont know what the best woofer ever is. the kenwood1300dvc sounds great. the solo xs sound good, the w7 isnt bad, its really a toss up.
how can value not have a part to determine the best woofer? if jl made a 12w10 and the thing was louder than the pioneer, and sounded better than the kenwood, but it was 10,000 dollars would it be the best? for a normal american like my self, theres no way it could be. yeah i would respect it but i could never afford it. therefore to compete against it i would have to use perhapes a pair of woofers, but if i could do it and save alot of money doing it than why not? again value is everything. again i like jl, just not enough bang for my buck. also i have explaned why the w7 is overrated, once i am not going to do it again. go back and read it.
i have exahausted my case for the last time. this is truely the last time that i go back and forth with people about the w7. its a great driver blah blah blah, we get it. punkorama can you give me another sub you like that wasnt in the test? perhapes we can agree on that. miaaron what is your fav sub? you been in the biz for a long time, who do you like? these are the things i would like to know. what would you recomend to your friends, if jl and boston were never a company?
again thanks to all for there opinions they are valued more by some than others

"solox sounds good, w7 isn't bad"<--- that statement alone is quite funny.

nonetheless, i would've loved to have seen either a brahma or an XXX in the test, and they were going to be, but both owners of their respective companies declined, most likely related to a disagreement between themselves and ben milne, the owner of eD who conducted the tests.