I was already going to get my stuff at Circuit City and that just convinced me. How much does installation tend to cost? (Sorry to hijack the thread)

As far as I know, installtion is free for anyting over $100... At least I know it is for heads. Not too sure about other stuff. Seems like it should vary based on product.

~Ryan

I would take it to a specaility shop they work off of commision so you can get a cheaper price if you go in knowing what you are talking about.

yes lets buy everything at circut city because of the protection plan. who cares if most of it is all bottem of the line stuff. great plan. the truth is most places warrenty stuff. h*ll most manufactures warrenty stuff for atleast 90 days. and i figure if you dont blow something up in 90 days, your probley not going to blow it up at all. my boston amp came with a one year warrenty. dont be fooled into buying stuff at a place because of a warrenty. have you ever seen tommy boy? if you havent your a poor b*stard, and need to rent it right now. if you have its kinda like what he says about the gaurtee, "all it is a a gaurteed piece of s*it". yeah i know i cant spell. anyway same thing here. if a warrenty is your final factor when buying car audio, you might not want to buy car audio. heres what it comes down to, if you dont take care of your s*it it will break. that goes with anything.

If I don't take care it will break. If I have a wararnty that doesn't matter. ;)

most places don't warranty subs as there are wayyy too many people who use the gain knob like it's a volume knob, thereby clipping the subs and melting voice coils.

if your not a dumba*s a warrenty doesnt matter. just take care of your expensive stuff and it wont break. then your not forced to only buy stuff from cc and bb

Suppose it is just a matter of opinion.

I didn't see this thread when it was posted but I have to say I'm pretty surprised at the level of Sony bashing! Though I didn't read through every post I don't think anyone defended Sony...

While it is true that prior to this year, Sony car audio since around 1999 (the advent of Xplod) has been pretty poor. Prior to that, Sony made excellent car audio products. The truth is there were only really 2 Sony HUs that were of any good quality the past 5 years (the CDX-MP70 and the MEX-HD1) but this year Sony has really turned it around. If you take a look at their 2005 products you'll see they've made significant improvements and have a new "Specialty Series" which is roughly the equivalent of "mobile ES" from years gone.

The new Sony products are quite good, and personally I'd take a HU like the CDX-M7815X over an equivalent Pioneer. I do think that Pioneer makes good HUs, though the new Sony stuff is also very good.

Personally I run all Sony source gear, but Sony stuff from "back in the day". Mobile ES stuff. I have a Sony HU, 2 CD changers, an MD changer and an external EQ/DSP and all of it is great. Believe me, a lot of the Sony fans from back then have been waiting for them to return to making good car audio gear and this year has been the year.

As for speakers, I'd honestly stay away from Pioneer speakers if you can afford it. Sony as well... In fact speakers from a lot of companies aren't all that great, despite them making other good quality gear. Pio and Kenwood are classic examples of this--they make great HUs but their speakers are nothing great. I used to have a set of Pio Premier components up front... Switched to a set of Focal Polyglass comps and the difference was night and day--I'll never go back to Pioneer for speakers. The Premier speakers aren't great. The Rev line is a little better I think but still I'd try a better brand if you can afford it.

Oh and definitely, definitely ditch the rear speakers, especially if you are getting a sub--makes things sound a lot better, a lot easier.

what do you know, we agree!

I just thought I'd say, I'm not wanting to buy stuff from Circuit City because of the warranty. That's just what a friend said. "Blow it up, and bring it back." Which I have zero intentions of doing. I'm an avid bass and guitar player, and I know way too many guys who ride the gain knob on their combos. All a bunch of retards who need their screaming hardcore ESP's louder than reasonable. I am not this kind of person. It's also why I'm easing my way out of playing in my area. I know the difference between the "gain" and "volume" knobs. I also take hella good care of all my gear, no matter how cheap it is. I have no intentions of blowing anything up on purpose. Sure, they would just give me something else to eff around with for free if that happened, but I'm paying the gas money to get there, and waisting MY time on going and getting a new piece of equiptment. Something I hate doing, waisting time.

(Current list: Pioneer "DEH-770MP" Premier head, Boston Accoustics "S95" and "S55" speakers, Alpine Type R subs. I'll be buying the speakers first, I'm afraid if I bought the head first, I'll blow whatever speaker life mine have left in a heartbeat.)

~Ryan

For the first time installer, warranties are well worth it. That is easily the time when the most mistakes, and costly ones at that, are made. There have been many times in my life where even quality products have died, or exhibited a drastic loss in performance. Leaky caps in an amp, and worn out spiders in a speaker are prime examples. Sure they can still work, but that doesn't mean they are functioning properly.

And saying that something is fine if it doesn't die within 90 days is the exact opposite of my experience. I personally have found that the majority of the time an objects failure rate is directly proportional to its age.

I work for Circuit and I buy the warrantees...cuz I know what happens when you don't...your stuff works up until 35 days after the purchase, then it breaks and they can't do **** for you....I never said it's a deciding factor to shop there...go to Best Buy or mom and pop shop for all I care, but all I'm saying is if ur gonna buy it from somewhere that offers warrantees it's well worth it to get it....cuz ur gonna be really pi$$ed when your $1000+ system stops working after 2 months, and no1 can deny that...and don't say it only happens to crappy products cuz it happens with every electronic company, they atleast have a small handful of defective products.

Right now, I'll be buying my subs and my speakers from a place called "High Tech HiFi" located in Merritt Island, Florida (for anyone close to me). I think I'll be ordering my head from www.onlinecarstereo.com, and my amp(s) are still a guess, since I havn't decided 100% on a brand. I am contemplating two MTX though. (4 ch. and 2ch.)

~Ryan

post some model numbers of what you're looking into...

Well, I'm just now looking into the specs of Boston amps, but for a four-way, I'm looking at the GT40, and for a two-way, I'm looking at the GT 28. However, the GT28 looks like it doesn't have alot of watts for the price of it. I was wanting to pump 300+ to two Alpine Type Rs, seeing as the reviews seam to say the more the better. Most said around 500 was good. However, the two-ohm wattage looks like it would work just fine, (around 350 each) So, what's the diference between the Alpine 2 ohm and 4 ohm subs? (I dont know anyting about ohms.) All of the reviews I have found were for the 1242 (12" Type R) not the 1222.

I was also looking into MTX for a cheaper alternative from CC. The models I am looking into are the 5302 two-channel and the 5604 four-channel. The four-channel seems to be the wattage I'm after, but again, the two-channel is looking a little weak at only around 200 (I think, too lazy to pull the site up).

Hope that helps you help me. Right now, I still am kicking around what size speakers to get. I've pretty much decided on Boston, it's just going to take a trip to HighTechHiFi to listen to them, but I'm pretty confident in them right now, more than just you guys are saying that they'r the best for the price range. So, Should I just go with 5.25" and 6"x9", or go with 6.5" all the way aorund??? I'll be doing the install myself, seeing as HTHF is pretty darned expensive (like $100 for a head) when it comes to that stuff. I am good with a cutting wheel, dremel, grinder (hope i wont need it) so I shouldn't have a problem with adapting plates to accomodate a 6.5". Can any of you guys point me in the direction of a tutorial, or send me a quickie walk through, like a cliff note of the instructions and steps of the conversion???

Any help from you guys, is obviously appreciated. You have all helped me so much, and I'm glad I came here for the answers! Otherwise, I'd-parking the equiptment I'm looking at now. Thanks =).

~Ryan

wow punkorama we agree! the end is near.

all i am saying is that a warrenty is one of the last factors in buying electronics. should you get one? absoulutly! all things that are made by man can break. the good thing is most stores and companys stand behind the stuff they sell. i said most, not all. find the speakers or amps or whatever you like, then talk about the warrenty. dont think warrenty before value, or sq. almost everything ever made will not stand up to the test of time. s*it wears out. it happens. nothing is perfect.

hey have you heard any boston or are you just going to get them because we told you to? you might hate them. its possible.

i have a question for you mantagreen.how can a company only put out 2 good hu's in 6 years, and not get bashed? i will also agree with you that pioneer premier is really nothing to great. however i would rather do my whole car in premier than any system i could peice together from best buy or cirut city. and the only reason i have rev 6x9's are because they really hit hard. i got them before my subs so my car was really lacking lows. and they worked just as i wanted them to. but now i am looking to get rid of them and throw in some boston sl95s.

ok ok hold on just one second. how much $$$ are you looking to spend here man? a gt-28 is $1000! and the gt-40 is $500. thats 1500 in amps alone. i have a gt-28 and love the thing. i have it hooked to my 2 g5s. its rated at 350 watts per channel at 12.6 volts. but if you run it at 14.2 volts, which is crusing speed, it puts out 450. thats the rms on the g5s.

as for the 6.5s all the way around. if you want them to fit in the door your going to need a sawzall. atleast i did for my z6s. speakers were to deep, they would have hit the window. so now i had my door panels fiberglassed to fit the d*mn things. as for the back, i have no idea.

Well they put out perhaps more than two good decks but their main problem was build quality/reliability for those years. Sony is an enormous company, considering all the different things they have their "hands in". In certain divisions of their consumer electronics they "cheaped out" and car audio was one of the worst hit. In cheaping out they went too far and the products were by-and-large substandard. It seems, however, they've finally realised they went too far and are offering good products again it seems, and they are even more competitive with pricing. From 1999 to 2004 if you were buying "Xplod" you were almost certainly buying overpriced junk. Now, particularly with the Specialty Series, you're getting a competitive product at a competitive price point--so Sony has certainly learned a lesson at least.

Well having components of all one brand is not really that bad, depending on what you buy. If you take a look at any one company's "all them" show cars you'll see cars which have rather impressive sound systems overall. This points out two rather important points. Product/brand bashing isn't really productive on the whole (and such bashing is usually not allowed on many car audio forums). Secondly, the install is often just as important or even more important than the product.

You mean more 6x9s??? Ugh, really I'm still going to recommend you remove and/or disconnect the rear speakers altogether. Unless you for some reason carry people in the back a lot and care about what they are hearing, I'd advise against rear speakers. I've fooled around with rear fill a lot, even crossing over rear 6x9s to play with 3500Hz low pass (meaning removing all the highs) and it still sounded better with the 6x9s off. In the end I just removed the 6x9s altogether, gave them away to a friend, and never looked back.

i will eventually be going to 5.1 dolby. its kinda hard to have that if i dont have rear speakers.

See, there is a reason for some people to keep the rear speakers. I plan on adding monitors in my head rests, and possible a din 2 or fold out monitor in the future, and would love to be able to hear the movies and or games how they should sound, from anywhere in the car.

~Ryan

Yeah the additional speakers are good for DD/DTS but remember that if you're in the front, the rear speakers aren't going to do much for you when playing back a DD or DTS soundtrack. The surround effects that are supposed to come from directly beside you in a home theatre will not be nearly as effective in a car where the speakers are located far behind you.

Also, for people in the rear, the front L/R channels won't be that effective either because of the location of the speakers (low on the door) and because of the seats in front of them.

But even if you decide to keep the rears to do DD/DTS in the future, at least disconnect them for now!

But that's just it though... The way the speakers are laid out (in a Grand Am at least) you aren't going to hear them as they "should" sound because if you look at any home theatre you'll see you sit well behind a pair of stereo fronts, with a centre channel the same distance away (or slightly closer), and with surround (and surround backs if applicable) to the side of and behind you, with distances that must be shorter than the distance from you to the front speakers. (If you've ever set up a HT receiver and speakers you'll know that you're prohibited for setting rear speaker distances that are further than the front speaker distances, when setting distances in the receivers' menu systems). In other words, the speaker distances you're going to have in a car are not consistent with either Dolby or DTS standards and you won't be hearing the multi-channel soundtracks as they were intended.

So really the rear speakers aren't going to help you out as much as you'd think. Perhaps with multi-channel music material, as in DVD-A or SACD it would be more beneficial (in car) but those are two limited and dying formats that never really caught on...

Well, I'm still going to replace the speakers in the rear, because I won't be buying a subwoofer right away, and I'll need that extra oomphf for awhile... And, no. I won't unplug them when I get the sub(s). That's just how I see it. They're there for a reason, and whether or not they are properly placed, well, I couldn't care less where they are, they're still there, and still getting replaced... Getting replaced with Boston SL95's.

~Ryan

yea, I tried unplugging my rear speakers and it sounded like shyt...even if they don't seem to add much, they give you a lot of your highs and mids still

i totally agree man. i think its good to have rears. sure you cant hear them nearly as well as the fronts but when there not on i can tell a big differnce, just by the way the sound is hitting me. as for dolby most people understand that they are sitting in a car and not in a house. what i mean is its not going to be as good as a home theater, but it shouldnt be too bad. h*ll some of the cheaper home audio recievers say in the directions to but the rears not beside you but behind you. i am not trying to arguee but i just cant really see why you hate rear speakers so d*nmn much.

...Maybe they ate his baby???...

j/k

~Ryan

Some people just like the faithful, true-to-form reproduction. For example, at a concert or a jazz club there isn't people playing behind you. I prefer a front stage without rear fill, but when properly utilized, rears can still sound good. They need to be ran quite a bit lower than the fronts though, otherwise they will skew the soundstage. There isn't really any need for tweets in them either. If you're getting a lot of highs out of your rears, your high end is being ran way to loud. The shape of your ears naturally attenuate high freq's from sources that are behind you. I'll also note that many of the freq's that people think are high are actually in the midrange. You'd be amazed how many people think notes in the 2-5k range are highs. Take a listen to just your tweets sometime and you'll see what I mean. With these considerations, many 3" wideband drivers work great for rear fill. They don't add a lot of volume to your music, but they do fill the car great.

Don't forget though, you can still get a great enveloping soundstage with properly placed fronts. I'm getting too much ambience in the 3-4k range that is pulling the soundstage behind me.

Highs and mids from the rear??? Ugh. That completely does in your soundstage and imaging in most cases. :(

If you have nothing for low end reproduction (i.e. no subwoofers), then yeah you pretty much have to keep the rears. Especially if you have small speakers up front and/or your doors are not sound deadened. That's simply because otherwise you'll be getting no response at all below perhaps 200Hz or so...

But even if you run rears, I'd recommend trying to cut the highs out of them. The factory rear speakers didn't really produce much high end frequencies (well in the 96-98 they didn't).

Also I don't know exactly how the speakers go into the trunk in the 5th gen cars but in mine, the 6x9s just go right into the trunk. No enclosure, nothing. Which is fine because they are running IB and that is good. However when you add a subwoofer into the trunk the air moved by the sub will interfere with the 6x9s. This is pretty easy to see if you just turn off the 6x9s and then turn up the volume to a moderate-to-high level and put your hand on the 6x9 and feel the cone bounce around, lol. Removing the 6x9s will also allow a little more sub output to enter the cabin in the case when you have the rear seat up.

Oh it's fine, I'm not trying to argue either. Just a friendly discussion :) I dunno it just sounds way better up front without the 6x9s running--you get robbed of imaging and staging with the speakers in the rear. And I've tried (as I mentioned) removing highs from 3000Hz and up and it still sounds bad. In fact, my DSP has time-alignment as well, and even with it aligned for the front I was surprised that not even the DSP time-alignment did much for me. In the end removing the rear speakers just sounded way better.

Given if you're sitting in the back you get gyped pretty good, but it isn't often that anyone is sitting in the back in my car, and really I don't care what they [aren't] hearing haha.

Believe me though when I was your guys age (and nothing against your age or anything, I'm just saying when I was younger...) I had the exact same attitude. I did everything possible to keep my 6x9s going one way or another. But it never sounded very good--my last effort was having them as above, separately amped, time-aligned, and highs cut and I realised it was pointless and just ruining things for me up front.

That said, I'd agree with MIAaron in that you can have a good/effective rear fill--to me it is just more trouble than it's worth.

Just my $0.02 though, I mean run it however you feel it sounds best to you--to me though it just makes no sense. :shrug:

Well, I still plan on buying new 6"x9"s for the rear. I carry passengers back there occasionally, and since I'm planning on monitors dedicated to rear passengers, I think it's in the best interest I purchase new ones. However, you guys have spakred a little intrigue into me. Methinks I'll be trying out the rear and front fader switch when I get my subs in the future. I just want to say, I'm not doubting you guys at all, and yes, we're young, we know it all lol. j/k.


~Ryan

yea, highs and mids from the rear...and I don't have factory speakers, I have aftermarket Kicker 2-way 6x9's, so yes, they do indeed produce a good amount of highs and mids...I tried cutting them out completely and it sounds horrible + even if you're trying to create concert sound, it doesn't really help that the bass is coming from behind you, in fact it sounds kinda stupid <---that's in the least argumentative way possible, if you like it that's your thing man, you have to listen to it, not me

is anyone familiar with absolute phasing of soundwaves? if you were, you wouldn't argue that 6x9's in the rear is correct ;)

your issue that it sounded crappy without 6x9's may be related to the fact that you were using the crappy speakers up front. but anyone who confuses more sound for better sound would call that stupid i guess.

By a huge margin, bass is the hardest to localize. Especially if you have strong midbass up front.

Absolute phase is great, but very hard in the car enviroment. Without a PC based measurement system and a strong pro audio EQ, you are hard pressed in the car enviroment. Luckily, these are becoming more common and affordable.

absolute phasing is a lot easier in car audio than it used to be since more high end HU's now have DTC.

i said absolute phasing when perhaps i should've also mentioned destructive interference.

if i took my 6x9s out you guys are saying that my car will sound better? i dont have crappy speakers up front witch both punkorama and miaaron agree with. so if it doesnt sound better to me should i still take them out?

also what if i built a box around the rear 6x9s in the trunk. would they still be affected by the subs on just vibration alone? i would imagine they still would considering i can get my back panel to lift up a couple of inches when my subs are on. thats just a guess but i can really launch quarters and other things off it. but will it make it any better?

Why don't you guys just put a 3 way component set up front if all you want is a front sound stage. Rear speakers are not necessary, they're only there for rear fill. They provide more of a concert sound, somewhat delayed. If you wanna do a 5.1 setup, the best way to do it would be a rear 6 1/2 inch component set in a fiberglass pod for more detailed bass. That would be the best way to protect your speakers from being effected from sound pressure created by your subwoofers. Same goes for 6x9's if you don't want to upgrade to a component set.

Okay, coming home from work tonight, I did a little science experiment. With Sevendust's "Seasons" album in my head, and the fade switch between my finegrs, I began working away. So I found out that the rear 6x9s pretty much just add a slight bit of bass, but overall just make your system louder. However, with the just the fronts on, I would have to crank the volume up substantially more to get a decent volume level. Which, could prove different with gear other than OEM. I also found that the rear 6x9"s put out quite a bit of mids and highs, more that I ever would've expected. I actually think that they put out more of those two than bass. (My car is also a former rental car, and had a previous owner on top of that, so my speakers must've seen some abusive sh*t before. I'm sure this may not go for all OEM setups.)

So, to conclude, I have found that, no, you don't need rear 6x9s, however, they do add a more fuller sound with a stock OEM setup. I imagine that with the proprerly placed 6.5" component set up front and a subwoofer in the back, you wouldn't need rear speakers "for the bass." However, I will be purchasing my gear in the order of "speakers, head, sub, sub amp, speaker amp." So, I will be buying new 6x9"s, just perhaps not the expensive ones I previously thought. I may just go for a cheaper type for now, and see what I like down the road with the sub.

~Ryan

Punkorama,
I try to avoid DTC(Digital Time Correction) as much as possible. Many people use it to patch a crappy install, which it doesn't. All it does is help with PLD(Path Length Differences), which doesn't apply to the whole audible freq spectrum. I can touch on IID(Interaural Intensity Difference), ITD(Interaural Time Difference), and HRTF(Head Related Transfer Fucntion) to explain it out further if you like.


Metallman,
I'm apologize if I'm coming off as rear speakers are never good. If you don't have a good image and freq response to start with, it won't do a whole lot. I'll go over the whole point of it though. The majority of cd's are in stereo, which is 2 channels(L & R) of signal. Having multiple point sources playing the same signal will produce more reflections, nodes/antinodes, as well as diffuse the focus of the stage. Stereo was never meant to be played from more than two speakers. D'appolitio style mtm's, line arrays, etc are not exceptions, as they are specifically designed to maintain the same point source location.

Don't bother taking your 6x9's out, just turn them off. It's easy to see the effects on the image. Ideally you would have some cd's with image mapping descriptions. If not, just grab your best recorded cd's and pay attention to where the singers voice and other instuments are coming from. Now turn on your 6x9's and locate the same information. Different cd's and songs will have a greater effect, so play around with it for a bit.

If you are using the stock door locations for your mids, this might not make much of a difference though. One of the most common issues with 2way sets in a car door is that the midbass and midrange will be out of phase. So if you have your speakers in phase for the midrange, your midbass will be weak. And if your speakers are in phase for the midbass, your midrange will be weak and diffussed. That's not to say you can't get good sound from a 2-way set in the doors. The rear deck generally doesn't suffer from this issue.


Mendoza,
I am running a 3 way front stage, but I'm running active and using DIY home drivers.


Hallows,
Having a front stage that has ability to cover the majority of the freq bandwidth helps out a lot. I understand why people are saying it sounds better with the rears, cuz it does have a more full sound when you don't have a properly implemented front stage. If I was just doing a quick 6.5 coax in the doors I would run rear fill also.

Speaker placement also makes a huge difference. With the stock locations, vocals are very low, and you can pinpoint the vocals to each speaker. Even my crappy qforms get a stage that is just lower than eye level, a little bit past the windshield, and a little bit wider than the pillars. They have a horrible center image though, and a major phase issue in the 3-5khz range. When the majority of the muscial energy is in the 3-5k range, the soundstage goes from just past the windsheild to the front of the rear deck. I could seriously make money at a carnival betting people that I had speakers back there.

This is why I'm glad my car has a 7-band equalizer. I get to pinpoint what I want more and less of. None of my friends believe it's a stock head either, lol.

~Ryan

Aaron i am intrested in seeing your front sound stage setup. Do you by any chance have any pictures? I am still debating on how i am going to mount my rear speakers for 5.1 setup. If you have any suggestion i would love to hear them.