$50 for 2008 challenge

[tejohnson]

I'd need to see a compression map for the setup to even form an opinion... Then I'd have to calculate based on the engine specs and IC setup. To lazy to even search. But if you show the range on the turbo map in the efficiency area, then I would have a bit of a clue

[Shock24Z]

Supposedly good for 600+ hp. DSM guys love them.

[AMRAAM4]

nothing like a test data sheet from December of 1993........

[tejohnson]

Originally Posted by Shock24Z

Supposedly good for 600+ hp. DSM guys love them.

So plot out 1.58 by 24.48 (if we are talking about a 3400). I tried to use some realistic numbers:

http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossa...orDutyCycle=85

[Shock24Z]

He's running closer to 9 psi right now (~1.8) and MAF readings tell me he's flowing more like 26-28lb/min with his current turbo.

bigger turbine and eventually a boost cam and the point moves right ... More boost? and the point moves up and right... we'll see....

ricer math aside, I don't think this turbo will be a limiting factor...

[tejohnson]

More boost? You would have to go above 12psi to make it effective. The cam may help with VE. That takes a bit of work and homework, unless you don't care what happens to your pistons and transmission. Going above 12psi on stock internals is not a good idea. This is not "ricer math", it is mandatory to have at least a slight understanding of components you are bolting to your car, or, see the effect referred to above. As another quick tip, anything above 7 PSI creates quite a bit of valve float with stock springs.

Pat (Schweppe23) has the best turbo for the 3400, hands down. My approach was to move forward with a T70-like turbo, which I have, but will be leaving my garage in the near future...

[Shock24Z]

Originally Posted by tejohnson

More boost? You would have to go above 12psi to make it effective.

I don't see what your saying.

Originally Posted by tejohnson

The cam may help with VE. That takes a bit of work and homework, unless you don't care what happens to your pistons and transmission.

It will help... more air at an equivilant psi. If we get this turbo on before camming I'll be able to tell you just how much more...The tranny will be built when funds are available.

Originally Posted by tejohnson

Going above 12psi on stock internals is not a good idea.

Why not? Without knock present I see no reason not to. I've never heard from anyone on here whats supposed to give way first anyways. If its uncharted territory, why not be the first one to explore it?

Originally Posted by tejohnson

This is not "ricer math", it is mandatory to have at least a slight understanding of components you are bolting to your car, or, see the effect referred to above.

Yea, I was joking. I did a lot of research on holsets including looking at that compressor map before suggesting a holset to him.

Originally Posted by tejohnson

As another quick tip, anything above 7 PSI creates quite a bit of valve float with stock springs.

I've seen otherwise... for over a year. Springs after camming I would say is necessary though.

Originally Posted by tejohnson

Pat (Schweppe23) has the best turbo for the 3400, hands down.

What is this turbo? Depending on the application that is still arguable.

Originally Posted by tejohnson

My approach was to move forward with a T70-like turbo, which I have, but will be leaving my garage in the near future...

Did you plan to run 10's?

Its not my car but I'm thinking 12's is his goal and 11's is a very real possibility in the future with this turbo and more mods... so he'll be just fine with what he's got.

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by Shock24Z

I don't see what your saying.

I think what he's trying to say is running too low boost on that turbo will move it below it's best efficiency range?

Why not? Without knock present I see no reason not to. I've never heard from anyone on here whats supposed to give way first anyways. If its uncharted territory, why not be the first one to explore it?

It's not uncharted territory, and if you haven't seen what gives way first on this engine, you need to do some more searching here and on 60degreev6. It's the pistons. They are the weakest link, followed by the timing chain of course, and the rods. You can do a good mild build with forged pistons and shot peened/cryo treated stock rods, but for a high power build billet SBC rods are a good idea.

Anyway, with good tuning and no knock, yes you can run more than 12psi. It's still not a good idea though. It's not the psi but the power level thats really the important thing. It's impossible to say "this is what HP you will break the stock pistons" because of variations in materials and machining in factory parts, however most people agree that once you start approaching 400 CHP your chances of breaking a piston go way up.

I've seen otherwise... for over a year. Springs after camming I would say is necessary though.

I've also seen otherwise, on my own engine and others, with dyno testing to confirm. Add to that I've also talked personally with a GM engineer responsible for working on the grand am and he said the stock 3400 valve springs are barely adequate and can float even on stock engines with high miles. Obviously for a cam you have to use stiffer springs. Even without a cam though if you are running boost and/or a raised rev limit, you should go to AT LEAST LS1 springs.

[tejohnson]

As in that turbo would require more boost to effectively be on the map. It may not spool fast enough to make you happy. You would effectively need 105% VE @ 3400 RPM to spool. Hope I am way wrong...

Pat bought a GT35R .82 ar. He also purchased a cam back in the day from cammotion, which yes, I know it helps.

As for the valve float, perhaps I don't know what I am talking about, and I am simply clueless when it comes to the 3400... Then again, I might just have a little bit of experience. See:

http://groomlakelabs.com/index.php?q...&g2_itemId=977

This was before my rebuild. There is a dyno chart, the winpep file, a scan of the pull, and a video. Now, for multiple choice, tell me what caused my fall off:

A. A gerbil stuck in the intercooler piping.
B. The blue powdercoat on the UIM.
C. Valve float.

Even though it has been over two years, and times that Pat and I have yet to be beaten by any other 3400 on an N-Body. It's not that I don't want to see it happen, I do. I am practically giving some things away to help some folks achieve that goal. My original goal was 13's when most folks were running14's. I simply no longer have an interest, and wish you, or your friend, all the luck in the world. You will need it if you are too closed minded to not consider advice from others.

[angrysk8r]

You call us close minded but you seem to be the ones who refuse to back down, whats wrong with trying to make one of the fastest grand ams with mostly stock internals (and for less than $3k)? I would think most people would like to cheer us on instead of make little jabs, if i really wanted some advice you'd see some threads from me

I'm really starting to tire from this, but what did I expect? It's the internet after all, and it is of course damn serious business

[tejohnson]

Originally Posted by angrysk8r

You call us close minded but you seem to be the ones who refuse to back down, whats wrong with trying to make one of the fastest grand ams with mostly stock internals (and for less than $3k)?

Luke,

I didn't realize this was some kind of "battle" that I was to back away from. I'm not applying pressure at all. As to making one of the fastest Grand Am's for under $3K, I did. Then I just decided to take it further. Sorry if you feel I over-engineer, but I tend to do that when I trust my life with a piece of machinery. If providing facts behind my claims when I post bothers you or your friend, then you are better off to ignore my posts.

Originally Posted by angrysk8r

I would think most people would like to cheer us on instead of make little jabs, if i really wanted some advice you'd see some threads from me

I'm really starting to tire from this, but what did I expect? It's the internet after all, and it is of course damn serious business

I feel that the thing that set me off was the inappropriate reference of "ricer" math with no apologies your friend made, yet refer to it as a "joke". You on the other hand, I made no reference to. I really wish you all the luck in the world.

Oh, and "I won't back down".

[angrysk8r]

hmm how appropriate

at any rate, honestly, i don't think you over engineer, i just feel that this community could benefit from seeing a budget build and actually getting somewhere with it instead of another built 3400 with all forged internals and a boat load of money behind it, not to say that i would have done the same if i had the cash...

[gectek]

this one is better....


and as long as it is ANY 12...ill throw my hat in with a little...alotta..bit of juice, alot of gear, and one hell of a sponsor
I was aiming for the 13 sec club, but now im aiming a little lower...figuratively, by trying to break into the 12s with all engine.
If i break this one...ill have another one waiting in the wings anyway

[angrysk8r]

Originally Posted by angrysk8r

at any rate, honestly, i don't think you over engineer

don't take that the wrong way either, i meant it as in you're doing what i would do in the same situation

[tejohnson]

, dude, there is no reason to explain yourself. I am not that over-sensitive, and I don't read into things.

Just get finished and put down some numbers already. Summer is almost over and I want to see someone get the $. Hopefully Ben has enabled the PayPal "Money Market" on the account for the challenge in order to have the prize grow a little.

Keep in mind folks, this was a 2008 challenge ya know. I'd hate to see a mod have to change the thread title.

[Nick-G]

Yeah I really would like to see someone get the cash too. I'm working on putting down some numbers myself with the new long block but right now I have a built engine with no trans to hold the power and a non existent turbo setup so i'm not exactly going to be getting anywhere anytime soon

[Shock24Z]

Originally Posted by tejohnson

As in that turbo would require more boost to effectively be on the map. It may not spool fast enough to make you happy. You would effectively need 105% VE @ 3400 RPM to spool. Hope I am way wrong...

Pat bought a GT35R .82 ar. He also purchased a cam back in the day from cammotion, which yes, I know it helps.

As for the valve float, perhaps I don't know what I am talking about, and I am simply clueless when it comes to the 3400... Then again, I might just have a little bit of experience. See:

http://groomlakelabs.com/index.php?q...&g2_itemId=977

This was before my rebuild. There is a dyno chart, the winpep file, a scan of the pull, and a video. Now, for multiple choice, tell me what caused my fall off:

A. A gerbil stuck in the intercooler piping.
B. The blue powdercoat on the UIM.
C. Valve float.

Believe me I don't doubt your knowledge of 3400's... I've probably learned more from your posts, pictures and whatnot than anyone else's. However, I do believe that I'm at a point where I no longer take what other people say for granted... this is not to say I don't believe you or allow it to go out the other ear. I'm at a point where I don't need to here what someone else has to say about running x psi... I'll more than likely be with luke scanning and making sure it doesn't blow up and learning from the entire experience.

Also, originally a 60-1... similar to the gt35 with a .82 a/r was the ideal turbo but the holset was a deal and fits in with the whole budget scheme of things.

In regards to the HX40...we'll be able to get back to you with numbers hopefully soon enough, and I'm not worried about how it will perform, especially compared to the turbo he has now.

edit: aaron I've tried to look into limiting factors within the engine before but never really came up with anything solid. If theres something out there I can find with another search then you've caught me though.

[tejohnson]

Originally Posted by Nick-G

Yeah I really would like to see someone get the cash too. I'm working on putting down some numbers myself with the new long block but right now I have a built engine with no trans to hold the power and a non existent turbo setup so i'm not exactly going to be getting anywhere anytime soon

I think you need to toss that engine in NOW and get the smallest pulley you can use on that blower Of course, you may want to exchange that FFP UD pulley with a stock harmonic balancer

[BlackJack]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

It's not uncharted territory, and if you haven't seen what gives way first on this engine, you need to do some more searching here and on 60degreev6. It's the pistons..........most people agree that once you start approaching 400 CHP your chances of breaking a piston go way up.

Originally Posted by Shock24Z

aaron I've tried to look into limiting factors within the engine before but never really came up with anything solid. If theres something out there I can find with another search then you've caught me though.

Allow me to back up aaron's point with a few pics of my recent incident, that way you'll know it isn't just unfounded speculation........

Three factors that attributed:
1) Tune was good before heading to the track, however, altitude variance from where it was tuned (4700MSL) to the track where this happened (3200MSL) caused a lean condition. I added more fuel, but.....(see point 2)
2) fuel pump was not enough to keep up. That piston is the number 6, which gets the least amount of cooling (last cylinder on the cooling path) and is also last on the fuel rail.
3) stock pistons are crap for anything over 12psi, you can tune it perfectly, however you like, but whether you get detonation or not, the combustion pressures at that level are still going to weaken it over time.
3)

[tejohnson]

Originally Posted by Shock24Z

edit: aaron I've tried to look into limiting factors within the engine before but never really came up with anything solid. If theres something out there I can find with another search then you've caught me though.

http://www.aleromod.com/forums/showt...ghlight=piston
Think I blew my 3400
http://www.grandamgt.com/forum/showp...6&postcount=12

Those are a few that came to mind. Haven't heard from Blight in a while.

Ya know, Pontiac Nationals begins... Today! Is Mike (Milzy) going? Did he get that beast he put on a tailor and brought up back in 2006 finished yet? How long do ya need man?

EDIT: D'oh! Mike, you beat me to it