$50 for 2008 challenge

[AleroB888]

Originally Posted by Whiteboy572ci

Get the snow meth setup too, dont buy the maf kit get the boost reference/generic kit. ..............................

You don't need it if you're properly intercooled....

[Shock24Z]

Originally Posted by AleroB888

You don't need it if you're properly intercooled....

and you don't need an intercooler if you're running low enough boost.

[AleroB888]

Originally Posted by Shock24Z

and you don't need an intercooler if you're running low enough boost.

You will to run 12's, this thread is about going for it all.....

[Shock24Z]

Originally Posted by AleroB888

You will to run 12's, this thread is about going for it all.....

touché

[Whiteboy572ci]

Originally Posted by AleroB888

You don't need it if you're properly intercooled....

Eh, yeh who needs extra hp???

[AleroB888]

Originally Posted by Whiteboy572ci

Eh, yeh who needs extra hp???

A whole 10 hp, huh? Show a dyno chart proving that....and how it actually does at the track is another story.

The only way ALC injection would increase HP with an existing intercooled system is if the engine had KR before you added it, otherwise a lower psi loss IC would do better. By the time you lowered the intake temp enough with ALC to match a proper intercooler, the ALC would have blocked enough airflow to negate the effect.

[Shock24Z]

Originally Posted by AleroB888

A whole 10 hp, huh? Show a dyno chart proving that....and how it actually does at the track is another story.

The only way ALC injection would increase HP with an existing intercooled system is if the engine had KR before you added it, otherwise a lower psi loss IC would do better. By the time you lowered the intake temp enough with ALC to match a proper intercooler, the ALC would have blocked enough airflow to negate the effect.

Soooo whats the problem with running both and thus being able to run more boost/timing?

Maybe I'm missing something here.

[Whiteboy572ci]

Originally Posted by Shock24Z

Soooo whats the problem with running both and thus being able to run more boost/timing?

Maybe I'm missing something here.

He's

You will get more timing out of it and make more power. IC will lower intake temps a lot and make the charger cooler but the methanol will make the combustion temperature even lower allowing more timing, with out over working your fuel pump.

Please go visit my cardomain i have a dyno there, i made 308whp w/o meth and 322whp with it so it actually helped 14whp.

I beat a 12.8x Z28, but this forum will not let me give details on the story...

[Whiteboy572ci]

Originally Posted by AleroB888

A whole 10 hp, huh? Show a dyno chart proving that....and how it actually does at the track is another story.

The only way ALC injection would increase HP with an existing intercooled system is if the engine had KR before you added it, otherwise a lower psi loss IC would do better. By the time you lowered the intake temp enough with ALC to match a proper intercooler, the ALC would have blocked enough airflow to negate the effect.

I would like to see your dyno also, not a link to a time slip. I have 10 sec time slips i could claim as my own also

[AleroB888]

Originally Posted by Whiteboy572ci

................

You will get more timing out of it and make more power. IC will lower intake temps a lot and make the charger cooler but the methanol will make the combustion temperature even lower allowing more timing, with out over working your fuel pump.

Please go visit my cardomain i have a dyno there, i made 308whp w/o meth and 322whp with it so it actually helped 14whp. .........
I beat a 12.8x Z28, but this forum will not let me give details on the story... .....l

Oh, so now it's 14 WHP, not 10.....I only see one chart at your site. I don't see the chart with 308 WHP there -- post a link to it. How many pulls total did you do that day?

Overworking the fuel pump? Your Walbro? I don't think so. If you had the stocker in there, then yes, ALC injection probably would have made a difference.

You are not even giving the details of your dyno session telling what you changed from each pull to the next, how much KR you got versus the timing and AFR for each...... and how much HP was gained for each change.

[AleroB888]

Originally Posted by Whiteboy572ci

I would like to see your dyno also, not a link to a time slip. I have 10 sec time slips i could claim as my own also

I am not the one claiming an inflated power rating for my car...I do know that the dynos from different shops can yield different results, and some people go to the ones where they get rated better.

This is what you claim on your site:

" Vehicle Info
2002 Pontiac Grand Am
Bragging Rights
1/4 Mile 12.7 sec @ 108 mph
Top Speed 159 mph
HP 322
Weight 3540 lbs "

That's a heavy GrandAm.


Are you saying my timeslips are fake? Want to put some money on it?

[AleroB888]

Originally Posted by Shock24Z

Soooo whats the problem with running both and thus being able to run more boost/timing?

Maybe I'm missing something here.

Consider this:

The intercooler, if it's a good one, will keep the IAT temp in the UIM to a modest rise, say 15-20 degrees max by the end of a 1/4 mile run.

At the beginning of the run, if the UIM air temp is at ambient, 70 degrees or so, the ALC vaporization would be OK, and if your boost rise is quick, the ALC system would already kick in -- remember Whiteboy said "boost-referenced".

By the 1/8 mile, if the IC air output temp has only risen 5-8 degrees (@12 lb. boost), like with my intercooler, and the ALC already dropped the UIM temp into the 40 degree range, there would very little vaporization, but the ALC would still be activated because it's boost-referenced, and would pool in the intake, at a lower temp, to be sure, but also restricting air.

Distribution to the cylinders is also a concern, the UIM being designed for air, not fuel. Of course, the hotter the UIM, the better the ALC injection works, but usually track runs for time are made after a cool-down.

Also, the fuel from the fuel injectors lowers the charge temp as well, and that effect would be less dramatic, and their atomization might be affected.

This does not mean it's impossible to pull off, but the amount of variables goes up by an order of magnitude, as does the difficulty in tuning.

Next, figure the actual amount of ALC added to the charge as a percent of the total fuel consumed in the run. I'm guessing that per cent would not justify higher octane as a major benefit.

But if you have KR using your intercooler, and don't want to upgrade it, or your fuel injectors are maxing out, it's worth trying.

[Shock24Z]

Originally Posted by AleroB888

But if you have KR using your intercooler, and don't want to upgrade it, or your fuel injectors are maxing out, it's worth trying.

Right... you said it best, all theory aside, "it's worth trying."

run up the timing/boost until you get some KR and then run alky. Bam, more power.

Or just run alky first and skip the whole KR thing.

[Whiteboy572ci]

Originally Posted by AleroB888

Consider this:

The intercooler, if it's a good one, will keep the IAT temp in the UIM to a modest rise, say 15-20 degrees max by the end of a 1/4 mile run.

At the beginning of the run, if the UIM air temp is at ambient, 70 degrees or so, the ALC vaporization would be OK, and if your boost rise is quick, the ALC system would already kick in -- remember Whiteboy said "boost-referenced".

By the 1/8 mile, if the IC air output temp has only risen 5-8 degrees (@12 lb. boost), like with my intercooler, and the ALC already dropped the UIM temp into the 40 degree range, there would very little vaporization, but the ALC would still be activated because it's boost-referenced, and would pool in the intake, at a lower temp, to be sure, but also restricting air.

Distribution to the cylinders is also a concern, the UIM being designed for air, not fuel. Of course, the hotter the UIM, the better the ALC injection works, but usually track runs for time are made after a cool-down.

Also, the fuel from the fuel injectors lowers the charge temp as well, and that effect would be less dramatic, and their atomization might be affected.

This does not mean it's impossible to pull off, but the amount of variables goes up by an order of magnitude, as does the difficulty in tuning.

Next, figure the actual amount of ALC added to the charge as a percent of the total fuel consumed in the run. I'm guessing that per cent would not justify higher octane as a major benefit.

But if you have KR using your intercooler, and don't want to upgrade it, or your fuel injectors are maxing out, it's worth trying.

UIM is not ambient at the line cause of heat soak.. I had a stock fuel pump thats why i ran meth.. Meth is used to keep cylinder temp down more than IAT.. And your jealous my grand am was faster than yours..

Still want to see your dyno.. I post my 10sec passes up i ran also..

[AleroB888]

Originally Posted by Whiteboy572ci

Ok, well my other post was deleted.. Shorthand You are retarded.. UIM is not ambient at the line cause of heat soak.. I had a stock fuel pump thats why i ran meth..
..... And your jealous my grand am was faster than yours..

Still want to see your dyno.. I post my 10sec passes up i ran also..

The temp change in the UIM is what I spoke of, and in cold weather after a cool-down, or with a liquid-to-air IC (iced) like I have, it can be very close to or at ambient.

In fact, with ALC injection after a good burnout, UIM temp can be below ambient.

Originally Posted by Whiteboy572ci

Meth is used to keep cylinder temp down more than IAT

Then just run 20% E85, if that's true.

Now I remember, you are that guy that thinks "backpressure" is a downward force on the rear wheels........

I am guessing that you are back posting for one reason.....to sell worn-out parts.

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by AleroB888

A whole 10 hp, huh? Show a dyno chart proving that....and how it actually does at the track is another story.

The only way ALC injection would increase HP with an existing intercooled system is if the engine had KR before you added it, otherwise a lower psi loss IC would do better. By the time you lowered the intake temp enough with ALC to match a proper intercooler, the ALC would have blocked enough airflow to negate the effect.

Sorry, but I gotta disagree with you there. Your statement doesn't match what I've read or seen and whats been tested. Air to air intercoolers aren't that efficient and get heat soaked easily and don't work well unless they have a lot of air flow. Not good for drag racing at all. Air to water are more complicated and heavier, but transfer heat more efficiently so they will cool the air charge better. Even then, the only way an A/W intercooler can match the cooling capability of alcohol injection is if you have a reservoir that you can add ice to to chill the water.

Alcohol injection gets that cold or colder all on it's own, because of the cooling effect of the change in state from a liquid to a gas that releases heat energy and chills the air, just like nitrous injection. Schweppe23 used to have alky injection on his magnacharger before he went turbo, and his UIM would be ice cold and have water condensation on it at the end of a run! And he holds the record for a E/M equiped car don't forget. Plus there is the fact that the alcohol adds octane to the fuel. Between that and the lower temps, you can add a lot of ignition timing which equals power.

Bottom line is, an alky kit is cheaper, easier to install, and weighs less than an intercooler setup for a magnacharger equipped car. It takes up less room too which at a premium with that kit. If you have it setup properly, so the kit kicks in at a set boost level and you have your tuning set to advance timing at that point, you will make more power for less money with an alky kit period!

[AleroB888]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

Sorry, but I gotta disagree with you there. Your statement doesn't match what I've read or seen and whats been tested. Air to air intercoolers aren't that efficient and get heat soaked easily and don't work well unless they have a lot of air flow. Not good for drag racing at all. Air to water are more complicated and heavier, but transfer heat more efficiently so they will cool the air charge better. Even then, the only way an A/W intercooler can match the cooling capability of alcohol injection is if you have a reservoir that you can add ice to to chill the water.

Alcohol injection gets that cold or colder all on it's own, because of the cooling effect of the change in state from a liquid to a gas that releases heat energy and chills the air, just like nitrous injection. Schweppe23 used to have alky injection on his magnacharger before he went turbo, and his UIM would be ice cold and have water condensation on it at the end of a run! And he holds the record for a E/M equiped car don't forget. ........................

We were talking about the special case of adding an ALC injection to an existing IC system, not ALC injection alone vs. Intercooler alone, which is a much different scenario....

N2OLDS tried a Snow Performance setup on his 2001 Alero but wound up running better times changing to the IC system I now use, and later sold it....
there is more to it than just having an ice-cold intake, been there, too.

I may not have access to Schweppe23's best timeslip (edit: with an E/M), but on the site I found:

The Best of Boost

SC/N20


King of the Hill
1.
Schweppe23 - 13.525 @ 102.64 MPH
Magncharged BUILT 3400 / BUILT Tranny

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by AleroB888

We were talking about the special case of adding an ALC injection to an existing IC system, not ALC injection alone vs. Intercooler alone, which is a much different scenario....

N2OLDS tried a Snow Performance setup on his 2001 Alero but wound up running better times changing to the IC system I now use, and later sold it....
there is more to it than just having an ice-cold intake, been there, too.

I may not have access to Schweppe23's best timeslip (edit: with an E/M), but on the site I found:

The Best of Boost

SC/N20


King of the Hill
1.
Schweppe23 - 13.525 @ 102.64 MPH
Magncharged BUILT 3400 / BUILT Tranny

Didn't know you had run a better time. I thought Schweppe's record still stood. I know he could have run a better time even then though, because he was having problems with the tuning and didn't have it dialed in for the alky. I'll bet N2OLDS didn't have it dialed in either. I've seen it done on other cars and seen the results, and I haven't seen anyone on this site yet that has been boosted with an alky kit and had the tuning set up properly.

[AleroB888]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

Didn't know you had run a better time. I thought Schweppe's record still stood. I know he could have run a better time even then though, because he was having problems with the tuning and didn't have it dialed in for the alky. I'll bet N2OLDS didn't have it dialed in either. I've seen it done on other cars and seen the results, and I haven't seen anyone on this site yet that has been boosted with an alky kit and had the tuning set up properly.

I think Schweppe23 also ran a 13.36 (E/M), but I can't find it. I thought he used nitrous with the E/M on those runs, though.

You are right, those systems were not totally dialed in, and I have been tweaking my setup for a couple years...

[AaronGTR]

Naw, he never had nitrous on his setup. Just the alky injection.

I had nitrous on mine for a while, and SPAZ did before me. I took it off eventually though because at the time there were no tuners available and I couldn't keep my AFR level across the rpm range at WOT, so it was impossible for me to jet the nitrous properly. It would either be way to rich at low rpm or too lean at high rpm, and it would just sputter and backfire the whole way down the track and run the same ET's as on straight boost.

Now that I have a tuner, I've thought about putting the N2O back on, or maybe selling the kit and using the money to get an alky kit and try doing it right and see what the results are. Haven't decided. I need to finish tuning it on straight boost first and see what it does on the dyno, then decide how much more I think the stock internals will take.