Hybirds Don't Really Save You Money $$$

[cardude007617]

wow im amazed no one has brought up the use of desiel fuel...... from what iv heard, europe has many many desiel powered cars out there and they product 50+mpg..... is there a freakin reason why they cant be sold here?

[gaowners32]

Originally Posted by AMRAAM4

nice English skills :

I was just about to say that. Until I scrolled down.

[Panacea]

What's funny is that the comparison didn't factor in replacing the battery packs... There's another $5k out the door.

[cardude007617]

anyone seen this:


"Who Killed The Electric Car?"

[notsoaveragej0e]

Guess there is no question now that I'll be getting the regular Escalade instead of the hybrid one.

[PhantomLover007]

Do the evironmentally smart thing though and get one... It might not help your wallet no, but it'll help you children's children's children x infinity, after all the ice caps have melted, the seas have risen, and the apocolypse has came...

[Mike Jung]

Wow, check this out !!!

Real world usage in a Canadian environment of Toronto.

Note: TTC = Toronto Transit Commission

TTC going diesel again after hybrid bus glitch

October 18, 2008 4:30 AM EDT
Tess Kalinowski
Transportation reporter
TheStar.com


The TTC is going back to buying diesel buses because the batteries on its newer hybrid diesel-electric models are proving too "hit and miss."

An existing order for 130 hybrids next year will go ahead, but next week TTC staff will recommend the commission approve a $61 million order for "clean diesel" buses in 2010.

The remaining 2009 hybrids will be delivered with Chrysler's new lithium-ion batteries rather than the lead-acid cells already in use on the TTC fleet. The TTC wants to test the newer batteries but isn't prepared to commit to that technology, said spokesperson Brad Ross, who didn't rule out the possibility of trying hybrids again after the 2010 order.

Much of the financing for the new buses came from Ottawa, which gave the TTC $303.5 million last March – enough to buy almost 700 of the new hybrids. Heavily touted at the time were the reputed environmental benefits – 37 per cent fewer greenhouse gas emissions, 30-50 per cent fewer emissions of harmful particulates, nitrous oxide emissions cut by 30 to 50 per cent and 20 to 30 per cent less fuel. There will be 564 hybrids on Toronto streets by the end of the year, about one-third of the TTC's 1,700-vehicle fleet.

"We have to have a bus that we can rely on,". said Ross. "The batteries are dying much sooner than they ought to."

Batteries that should be lasting five years are surviving only about 18 months, which affects service because those buses have to come off the road for repairs, he said.

The hybrids have also failed to live up to projected fuel savings because the technology is most beneficial in stop-and-go downtown traffic and there are a limited number of such routes, Ross said. Many TTC routes operate in less busy residential neighbourhoods.

It was hoped the hybrid buses would save 20 to 30 per cent on fuel but they are achieving only about a 10 per cent saving, he said.

The TTC will save about $24 million by ordering diesel rather than hybrid because diesel buses cost about $200,000 less than the $700,000 hybrid models, he added.

The hybrid buses entered service here last December, making the TTC the first Canadian transit service to embrace the new technology in a big way. While BC Transit, Edmonton and Ottawa have a few units in service, the TTC said at the time of the roll-out that it believed it was the first transit company in Canada undertaking to create hybrids in its fleet.

The buses now on the road were built by Daimler-owned Orion Bus. The integrated chassis/body structure of each bus is assembled at Orion's Mississauga factory, then shipped to the Oriskany, N.Y., plant, where seating, engines, transmissions, axles, electrical, heating and air conditioning is added.

[lone_wolf025]

Take that hybrids!

[BlackAttackGA]

I'm a senior at Ohio State majoring in Environmental Science & Natural Resources and hybrids are definitely the way to go. Prices for hybrids are going down, it's just like every new technology (starts out expensive and goes down over time). While it might be more expensive for some people, it drastically helps out the environment. While I'm no "tree-hugger" and probably won't get a hybrid for some time (especially since I'm a typical college student), it is the cleanest car technology on the market. Hydrogen research is on the rise as an alternative to hybrids so we'll see where that goes. Most scientists would prefer Hydrogen but it would be very difficult to market. It'll be interesting to see where all this is headed.

[PhantomLover007]

If the batteries are dying so quick, why don't they install the solar chargers to maintain them?

[crazypontiac03]

They won't get enough Charge out of the Solar Panels. Diesel is the way to go. Look at Europe. Yes its more Money however if there was more Production of Diesel car's i think the price would drop. After all diesel is the Crap they take off the top.

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by BlackAttackGA

I'm a senior at Ohio State majoring in Environmental Science & Natural Resources and hybrids are definitely the way to go. Prices for hybrids are going down, it's just like every new technology (starts out expensive and goes down over time). While it might be more expensive for some people, it drastically helps out the environment. While I'm no "tree-hugger" and probably won't get a hybrid for some time (especially since I'm a typical college student), it is the cleanest car technology on the market. Hydrogen research is on the rise as an alternative to hybrids so we'll see where that goes. Most scientists would prefer Hydrogen but it would be very difficult to market. It'll be interesting to see where all this is headed.

cleanest car technology on the market? Didn't you ever read the article about what it takes to make a prius? They produce more pollution making a prius than you put out driving an F150 on the road for 5 years. They are a nice idea, but they are over-hyped. They are marketed to civic minded people who "want to do the right thing for the environment" and who want to save money on gas, but are too busy to do any actual research into the products they buy, regardless of the actual benefits or lack of. What we need are real solutions. Not marketing and media hype.

(edit: the problem is, being environmentally friendly has become PC and trendy and the thing to do, so now everyone wants to jump on the band wagon even if they aren't doing it the right way)

[AMRAAM4]

Originally Posted by BlackAttackGA

I'm a senior at Ohio State majoring in Environmental Science & Natural Resources and hybrids are definitely the way to go. Prices for hybrids are going down, it's just like every new technology (starts out expensive and goes down over time). While it might be more expensive for some people, it drastically helps out the environment. While I'm no "tree-hugger" and probably won't get a hybrid for some time (especially since I'm a typical college student), it is the cleanest car technology on the market. Hydrogen research is on the rise as an alternative to hybrids so we'll see where that goes. Most scientists would prefer Hydrogen but it would be very difficult to market. It'll be interesting to see where all this is headed.

So since you are "educated" on this, did the know-it-all professors at OSU ever give a REALISTIC explanation to the following question (and by realistic explanation I mean, with statistics and evidence):


The most explosive, dramatic, climate and geological transformations happened on this planet well before man was ever in existence (uhmmm, yeah, were talking complete migration of land masses, total global temp. change to sub zero, etc., and these weren't all caused by the Chicxulub meteor). How did those revolutionary transformations/catastrophes occur without mankind driving cars and using manufacturing plants? Were stromatolites really people from "Honey I Shrunk The Kids" that were driving billions of microscopic vehicles?

[99GTCoupe]

If you want a real gas saver, go get a early 90s Civic with the VTEC-E engine. Focking thing is rated at 47/56 mpg O.o

[Mike Jung]

Well, I guess that is one way to get Daimler Buses North America Ltd to fix the hybrids.
Put on hold on a $61 million order until they do

TTC puts brakes on $61M bus order
New deal for 120 diesel Daimler buses delayed until problems with hybrid 'lemons' resolved

October 24, 2008
TESS KALINOWSKI
TRANSPORTATION REPORTER
TheStar.com

The Toronto Transit Commission plans to delay ordering $61 million worth of diesel buses from a company whose previously purchased hybrid diesel-electrics have turned out to be lemons.

The TTC has already ordered 130 more hybrids for next year from Daimler Buses North America Ltd.

But the batteries on the Daimler hybrids already on Toronto streets are lasting about 18 months, far short of the anticipated five years, and the fuel savings have been only one-third what was projected.

Regrets about the decision to go hybrid have prompted the TTC to return to buying "clean" diesel buses in 2010.

But yesterday, councillors on the transit commission decided to delay placing a new order for 120 diesels from Daimler until the battery issue is resolved. The TTC wants to see whether the standing hybrid order could be replaced with diesels.

TTC staff got the go-ahead to consider ordering diesels from another company, possibly New Flyer, second bidder on the original 2004 contract.

Long-standing problems with the current hybrids have come to the point where the TTC is having trouble putting enough of them on the road, said chief general manager Gary Webster.

Neither Daimler nor the TTC know why the batteries are failing. Most problems occur while the buses are off-road, but there have been battery failures on the street.

"We have had many more failures than that, and we work through the night to replace cells on the battery pack to meet service the following day," Webster said.

Buying diesel buses in 2010 will make the fleet more reliable and save about $24 million initially because each hybrid costs about $200,000 more than a diesel.

But it's not clear what the switch might cost, because one-third of the funding comes from the federal government, which stipulated hybrids. That condition will apply until 2010, so the TTC may have to forgo the federal money for next year.

TTC chair Adam Giambrone said the hybrids continue to travel Toronto streets. "It's not that they're not working, they're not working up to our levels," he said.

If the TTC hadn't complied with the federal stipulation to order hybrids, it wouldn't have had the money to renew its aging fleet.

"I think the technology is probably there; it's just not coming to the table as fast as we want them to," said commissioner and councillor Bill Sandercook.

At the time the hybrids were purchased, the TTC relied mainly on the experience of New York City. As it turns out, New York buses experience more stop-and-go traffic, in which hybrids are most fuel-efficient.

The TTC still wants to experiment with Daimler's new lithium-ion batteries to see if they function better than the lead-acid models. Toronto will have five of the lithium-ion buses for testing by the end of the year, Webster said.