Say Farewell to Pontiac

[Panacea]

Originally Posted by PhantomLover007

IIRC, the Aura is an Opel design.

I read a little more on it. I don't know all the details, but I do know the Aura and Malibu are opel designs.

[Ajaxus]

Originally Posted by FastSteve

Our government may ultimately be what KILLS GM!

Because we all know that without the bailout money, GM would have made it on it's own two feet..

Bad business decisions landed them where they are. Now they're being forced to make the decisions necessary to save most of the business. Go ask any Freshman/Sophomore business 101 college class what they think of this. They'll tell you that the owners of GM ****ed up for too long and are paying the price for it now. If they paid more attention in the past, no bailout money would be needed, no Gov't interference would be necessary.

PS,
Just realized this is my 638 post. The same number as the HP rating on the new ZR1-made by GM as we are talking about GM. Little bit interesting if you ask me.

You have too much time on your hands,

[GregFarz78]

Originally Posted by FastSteve

Our government may ultimately be what KILLS GM!

huh? The government didn't tell GM to make horrible business decisions or continue to make gas guzzling trucks/suvs while the rest of the world was working on alternative fuel technology. GM must have thought they were invincable and people would continue to "buy american" too bad this isn't the 60/70s anymore and that mentality doesn't work.

[FastSteve]

Originally Posted by GregFarz78

huh? The government didn't tell GM to make horrible business decisions or continue to make gas guzzling trucks/suvs while the rest of the world was working on alternative fuel technology. GM must have thought they were invincable and people would continue to "buy american" too bad this isn't the 60/70s anymore and that mentality doesn't work.

No the government is just going to force them to build nothing but a bunch of crap cars that their customers dont want. Having vehicles that get good fuel milage IS important but GM needs more then just that. Green car buyers are not the only customers out there.

In fact if you pay atttention to the articles out there, it says Americans are more inclined to buy vehicles like the G8 and Chryslers full size cars like the 300 and Challenger. As for the trucks and SUV's. Well no DU GM built lots of them. Again they building what their customers where wanting and BUYING at the time. It is only with in about the last 18 months or so that truck sales have went way down from what they were. While they can do market research and try to foresee the future, NO company can truly predict the future. They can only try to be ready. And guess what! GM is run by human being that like everyone else can not be right EACH AND EVERYTIME. That is part of life.

[GregFarz78]

More inclinded to buy cars like G8 and challanger? Who did they poll to find out those facts www.tirekickers.com? Its easy to say yeah build more muscle cars but no one is buying them b/c its not practical.

The gov isn't forcing them to build crap cars they can still have the vette, g8, etc but they need to get with the program and build more fuel efficient and more cost effective cars.

[FastSteve]

Originally Posted by GregFarz78

More inclinded to buy cars like G8 and challanger? Who did they poll to find out those facts www.tirekickers.com? Its easy to say yeah build more muscle cars but no one is buying them b/c its not practical.

The gov isn't forcing them to build crap cars they can still have the vette, g8, etc but they need to get with the program and build more fuel efficient and more cost effective cars.

Articles that I have been reading through all of this, saying that Americans are STILL buying these less fuel efficient cars in fairly large numbers.

[Rich]

well, theres a group that wants to buy pontiac. we'll see what happens:

http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?se...uto&id=6790655

MID-MICHIGAN (WJRT) -- (05/01/09) -- A local auto dealer says he's made a purchase offer on the Pontiac brand that he hopes will save Pontiac from its pending demise.
Jim Waldron of Waldron Pontiac, Buick and GMC in Davison is behind the push to save Pontiac.
He made the announcement today during a taping of ABC12's Newsmaker Program. During the interview, Waldron said he has made an official offer to GM company to buy the brand.
Waldron tells us that he and a group of investors, one of them another auto dealer, have been in talks for months when it became clear GM was thinking of eliminating the Pontiac brand.

This week, less than 24 hours after GM make the end of Pontiac official, the investors submitted their purchase offer to buy the brand, a brand that Waldron is convinced is a moneymaker.
"I believe in the brand. I think Pontiac's been a long-term brand. If you look at the recent sales, prior to the fallout of the economy in November, Pontiac brands were coming on real strong; the G-6, the G-5, really gaining market share in many markets, and I think we can still do that."
Waldron would not disclose how much his investor group offered for the Pontiac brand. He did say they would be buying the brand and product licensing only.
They wouldn't be buying the existing plants or taking on the workers in those plants.
They do have a plan for where they would begin manufacturing plants, and Michigan, while near the top of the list, is not at the top unless there were very good incentives.
Waldron says he hopes to hear from GM by next week.

[AMRAAM4]

^^ I highly doubt a couple dealership owners and a few others have the bankroll to buy an entire brand My guess is these are dreamers, trying to make a lowball offer since it's getting axed anyway, and are flying by the seat of their pants with how they would pull off building/supporting the cars in the future.

[FastSteve]

Well I for one hope it works out. I would much rather see Pontiac go on.

[notsoaveragej0e]

Yeah, no one is buying Pontiac... it's just going away.

[FastSteve]

HQuote:
Originally Posted by kylepo
"However, GM VP for North American Communications, Tom Pyden, later told the station that no deal would happen since the brand is not for sale. The latest viability plan put forward by the automaker makes no provision for spinning off Pontiac like it does with Hummer and Saturn"



Pretty much as I figured. GM would NOT allow Pontiac to LIVE ON in any way shape or form if it isnt theirs. Brand NOT FOR SALE. Whyare your killing it off. Why not sell it? Sounds to me like even if these investors did come up with a REAL offer they would still be turned down. You need money and here is someone willing to buy something from you and you say NOT FOR SALE! That is wise thinking.

It seems and sounds to me that once GM decided Pontiac was done, they made up their minds to make sure of that and absolutely refuse to allow Pontiac to go on. They said Pontiac is done so they want to make sure it stays dead. Sorry I am venting a lttle here but it upsets to think it sounds like even if it was a real and reasonable offer GM still wouldnt sell Pontiac and let it live on. They need money and there are quite a few Pontiac people out there that would really like to see the brand live on.
ere is some things that I a few others have been talking about on the F-Body forum. Covers a few points and things some might be worried about.

More

Postes by member Coyle
As the owner of six Firebirds, I am upset at the demise of Pontiac. But, I would rather see Pontiac gone, than come under foreign ownership. Even if it is a group of US dealers is wanting to buy it, I think there is too much risk of it being later sold to foreign owners or that the owners could outsource the work overseas. So, I'm glad that GM is not selling it.

If Firebirds were built in China or India, I wouldn't consider them true Firebirds. I wouldn't consider them to be true if they were built here under the orders of foreign masters. I think alot of Pontiac fans feel the same way. I would worry that such a situation would damage the Pontiac brand and heritage. It could devalue my current fleet.
My Response
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets face it much of what is sold here in America under American names is outsourced already. The engines are built all over the world it seems. The new Camaro along with the last generation are built in Canada. And if you read any of those sales books you pick up at the dealer they all say the parts are sourced from many different areas. Now I am not saying I agree with. And no I wouldnt want to see Pontiac production completely go over to China or India or some other place like that. That would indeed likely damage the heritage of the brand.

To be honest I didnt think this thread would get this much response. I figured a handful of responses or so. I didnt think people would have this much to say on it. Its appearent this is on the minds of many people here.

[pauljs75]

The problem is that the particular audience that would actually buy Pontiac is out of work. Myself included.

(And this is how the job situation goes:
Got anything involving good computer skills? Data entry and the such? I'm a quick reader/learner and can type fast, not to mention I've done it before.
Nope, we moved all that to India.

Got anything relating to my degree?
Nope, you're not experienced enough and the entry level jobs you could do pushing pixels have been moved to SE Asia, Brazil, and SW Europe.

Got any jobs at this big box store?
Nope, you're too old and would catch on to the B.S. we pull on the high school grads.

Got any jobs at this other big box store?
Nope, you're too young and would probably expect more hours or cause morale problems due to boredom.

Got any fast food jobs?
Nope, you'd report us to the health department and would start giving the illegals *ahem* I mean our undocumented workers some notions about what minimum wage and safe work conditions should be.

Awww F***!! So now I'm stuck trying to freelance, but I suck as a pitch man and would rather ply the trade without worrying about the business end of it.) At least I have friends and family that keep me from being homeless, but sometimes I worry that is getting old too.

But if the economy picks up again to where I can get a job paying real wages and afford to replace my car, it's likely GM will be lower on the list now. Ok, the Pontiacs didn't always get the strongest engines or the best fit and finish. But the some of the design, control feel (I'm big on haptics, I hate floaty feelingless steering or soft mush pedals), and handling were quite good. If you didn't want the soft handling from the lot in a Chevy or Saturn, it would take a custom order. I'll probably go to VW, some Japanese make, or Hyundai next time around.

[Y2KGA]

Originally Posted by pauljs75

But if the economy picks up again to where I can get a job paying real wages and afford to replace my car, it's likely GM will be lower on the list now. Ok, the Pontiacs didn't always get the strongest engines or the best fit and finish. But the some of the design, control feel (I'm big on haptics, I hate floaty feelingless steering or soft mush pedals), and handling were quite good. If you didn't want the soft handling from the lot in a Chevy or Saturn, it would take a custom order. I'll probably go to VW, some Japanese make, or Hyundai next time around.

I was thinking the same thing. Once Pontiac is removed, they are going to be exhiling most of their younger demographic.

[notsoaveragej0e]

Originally Posted by FastSteve

HQuote:
Originally Posted by kylepo
"However, GM VP for North American Communications, Tom Pyden, later told the station that no deal would happen since the brand is not for sale. The latest viability plan put forward by the automaker makes no provision for spinning off Pontiac like it does with Hummer and Saturn"



Pretty much as I figured. GM would NOT allow Pontiac to LIVE ON in any way shape or form if it isnt theirs. Brand NOT FOR SALE. Whyare your killing it off. Why not sell it? Sounds to me like even if these investors did come up with a REAL offer they would still be turned down. You need money and here is someone willing to buy something from you and you say NOT FOR SALE! That is wise thinking.

It seems and sounds to me that once GM decided Pontiac was done, they made up their minds to make sure of that and absolutely refuse to allow Pontiac to go on. They said Pontiac is done so they want to make sure it stays dead. Sorry I am venting a lttle here but it upsets to think it sounds like even if it was a real and reasonable offer GM still wouldnt sell Pontiac and let it live on. They need money and there are quite a few Pontiac people out there that would really like to see the brand live on.
ere is some things that I a few others have been talking about on the F-Body forum. Covers a few points and things some might be worried about.

More

Postes by member Coyle
As the owner of six Firebirds, I am upset at the demise of Pontiac. But, I would rather see Pontiac gone, than come under foreign ownership. Even if it is a group of US dealers is wanting to buy it, I think there is too much risk of it being later sold to foreign owners or that the owners could outsource the work overseas. So, I'm glad that GM is not selling it.

If Firebirds were built in China or India, I wouldn't consider them true Firebirds. I wouldn't consider them to be true if they were built here under the orders of foreign masters. I think alot of Pontiac fans feel the same way. I would worry that such a situation would damage the Pontiac brand and heritage. It could devalue my current fleet.
My Response
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets face it much of what is sold here in America under American names is outsourced already. The engines are built all over the world it seems. The new Camaro along with the last generation are built in Canada. And if you read any of those sales books you pick up at the dealer they all say the parts are sourced from many different areas. Now I am not saying I agree with. And no I wouldnt want to see Pontiac production completely go over to China or India or some other place like that. That would indeed likely damage the heritage of the brand.

To be honest I didnt think this thread would get this much response. I figured a handful of responses or so. I didnt think people would have this much to say on it. Its appearent this is on the minds of many people here.

They killed the brand because it was bleeding money, and was the least profitable relative to the other brands. Did they make a few great products? Sure. The sad truth, however, is that they just couldnt sell enough of the "good" to pay for the "bad."

To that note, a "real" offer was never made... those dealers were just trying one last ditch effort to save their own asses. Car dealers are wealthy, but there are none out there that can afford to buy Pontiac- not even a dealer group (with the exception of Penske and one or two others). The whole point of this reorganization is to make GM smaller and more nimble; it's pretty hard to do that when you also have to balance making sure this group of people who have never built cars, only sold them, is taking over one of the brands and still using factories and dealerships GM is trying to shut down.

As far as that member mentioning the depreciation of his "fleet of firebirds," I hate to inform him but its likely very few cars made by Pontiac will hold much value once the brand is gone. The exception here, obviously is cars that are already considered "classic" Like GTO's, old Firebirds, etc. IMO, the only late model cars that will be considered "classic" will be 04-06 GTO's, GXP G8's, and the hardtop Solstice GXP. All of these models were low production and for limited years... Firebirds were built at a much higher number, and the quality was never all that great (IMO).

[CUSTOMGAGT2000SEDAN]

i did not read all the post here. but because gm is in trouble and the pontiac line dies after 2010 does that means besides the limited amount of parts available , does it also mean gm will hike up the price of parts ???

[notsoaveragej0e]

Originally Posted by CUSTOMGAGT2000SEDAN

i did not read all the post here. but because gm is in trouble and the pontiac line dies after 2010 does that means besides the limited amount of parts available , does it also mean gm will hike up the price of parts ???

I doubt it... I think they are legally required to make parts for X number of years after a model is taken off the market. I don't feel like looking, but are Oldsmobile parts still available at comparative prices? That'd be your litmus test.

[CUSTOMGAGT2000SEDAN]

r says they have to make parts for 5 years after any model etc. but our 1999 to 2004 ga's would be out of that picture wouldn't they ?? still wounder about the parts prices though.

hey isn't gm doing everything / anything to save money now , cutting there cost losses. i would guess they would be stupid enough to try and squeeze more out of the comsumer for parts prices.

they lie to your face . the owner of the one of our pontiac dealerships and 3 other types of dealers ships told me a about 2 months or more ago that the changes with gm would not effect present owners of gm cars / pontiac's.

but last month the service shop foreman told me that yes gm's problems will effect us and also stated they will be trying harder not to put threw as many warranty claims and that the goodwill service they and others use to have , is now dead and gone.

i would imagine goodwill could still be extended to those long long time or many gm car customers / big buck customers. that was even sort of implied in my talks with the foreman.

wounder if this will effect the re-sale value / interest in our pontiac we own . i am not sure if i would by a used car for all year driving that the whole brand line is no longer being made. too woried about servvice and parts. like gm needs to loose parts / and service business because of that thought too.

[notsoaveragej0e]

Well if the shop foreman in an obscure Canadian town says it, it must be true.

[Y2KGA]

It is possible that GM will stop availability of certain parts for the GA but there are plenty of aftermarket producers of replacement parts and there will be for some time. If there is a demand for parts, someone will build them. Look at how many companies make the window regulators.

Originally Posted by CUSTOMGAGT2000SEDAN

i did not read all the post here. but because gm is in trouble and the pontiac line dies after 2010 does that means besides the limited amount of parts available , does it also mean gm will hike up the price of parts ???

[CUSTOMGAGT2000SEDAN]

yes you likely right about the aftermarket companies and parts.

but when you have those big suppliers like gmpartsdirect that have what appears to be more TYPES / SELECTION of parts and they do not ship/sell to canada.

those places are a killer for us . maybe i can hope they will now waken up or in the next 5 years of parts manuafacturing from gm.

and with the way shipping cost go each year and the economy slumping each year , and the where USA seller figure it is a hassal to deal out of usa .i think you will find less ebay parts sellers selling/shipping out of the good old USA.