Crank Position Relearn Procedure

GrandAmGTTT · 08-09-2009, 06:52 PM

I need to perform the crank position relearn procedure...can someone please tell me what that procedure is...?

Mike Jung · 08-09-2009, 07:04 PM

You need (IIRC) someone with a Tech II tool or HP Tuner, etc... to do it.

GrandAmGTTT · 08-09-2009, 07:05 PM

i have DHP tuner

AaronGTR · 08-09-2009, 11:14 PM

In that case, open up your scanner. Go to the top of the window and click where it says "real time controls". There is an option for CASE learn. Click it and it will give you all the directions automatically and tell you when you've successfully completed it. Make sure the car is fully warmed up before you do it.

curtpank · 08-09-2009, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrandAmGTTT

i have DHP tuner

if you mean DHP Powertuner, then you can do it yourself. It's called a CASE Learn variation test.

connect the DHP scanner to the car while it's running. Do this exactly as if you are going to log data. Then, in the scanner window toolbar click on "real time controls". Then choose Crank case position or whatever it's called - I don't have my scanner in front of me right now.

then just follow the step-by-step instructions. It takes about 15 seconds. Most mechanics around here will charge over $80 to do it!

curtpank · 08-09-2009, 11:18 PM

! Aaron - you and I replied at the exact same moment with the exact same info! It's true what they say about great minds...

aiixon · 10-12-2009, 03:01 PM

how can this be done without tuning software

AaronGTR · 10-12-2009, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiixon

how can this be done without tuning software

It can't. You need some type of hardware and software... either a laptop and DHP or HP tuner, or an automotive diagnostic and scan tool with that option... that can interact with the cars computer and activate the protocol for the crank position learn. There is no other way to do it.

aiixon · 10-12-2009, 06:41 PM

i have access to an OBDII scan tool tonight, ill see if it has that option. Im thinking that's what I need to do to correct the timing after doing the head gasket swap, its running really rough and has huge misfires with higher RPM's that sound like metal on metal. I'm really hoping the valves aren't smacking the pistons or my life is over...

350rs · 10-12-2009, 09:53 PM

OBD scanners that you get from your local parts store wont do it.

aiixon · 10-12-2009, 11:05 PM

k my friends dad neighbor has a snap on scanner tool that can do all this crap but it only goes up to 1999. we tried it and it doesnt work on my 2000. so ill ask my shop teacher if he has one that i could either borrow or tow my car in to use

AaronGTR · 10-13-2009, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiixon

i have access to an OBDII scan tool tonight, ill see if it has that option. Im thinking that's what I need to do to correct the timing after doing the head gasket swap, its running really rough and has huge misfires with higher RPM's that sound like metal on metal. I'm really hoping the valves aren't smacking the pistons or my life is over...

Head gasket change would have nothing to do with this at all. The only time you need to do a CASE learn is if you change the pcm, the crank sensor, the crank pulley, or replace the entire crank shaft or engine. You shouldn't need to do a case learn from doing top end work.

When you changed the head gaskets and put everything back together did you make sure to put all the push rods back in the right order?

Malaclypse · 10-13-2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

When you changed the head gaskets and put everything back together did you make sure to put all the push rods back in the right order?

First thing that came to mind. Or leave any of the rocker arms loose?

aiixon · 10-13-2009, 08:27 PM

everything is done right trust me. somehow my timing is off by 30 degrees.

aiixon · 10-13-2009, 08:46 PM

I think my engine was running SOOO poorly before that it timed itself to run really bad and it should run so much better now that it is too far of an adjustment. As far as I know relearning things on the computer is the only way to mess with timing on this car. Well besides down at the camshaft or crank but I didn't get that far.

AaronGTR · 10-13-2009, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiixon

I think my engine was running SOOO poorly before that it timed itself to run really bad and it should run so much better now that it is too far of an adjustment. As far as I know relearning things on the computer is the only way to mess with timing on this car. Well besides down at the camshaft or crank but I didn't get that far.

Nope, the engine can't "time itself to run bad". I can't relearn anything to do with timing either. It doesn't "learn" anything. It does average some numbers and make adjustments to fuel trims and to shift pressures based on driving habits vs time for wear and tear. That's about the limit of it.

Your timing is what it is. There is no learning or adjustment to make outside of what is programmed in the pcm and what the pcm sees from certain sensors. Your timing can't be off by 30 degrees.

Malaclypse · 10-14-2009, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiixon

I think my engine was running SOOO poorly before that it timed itself to run really bad and it should run so much better now that it is too far of an adjustment. As far as I know relearning things on the computer is the only way to mess with timing on this car. Well besides down at the camshaft or crank but I didn't get that far.

Sounds like you were looking at the Spark advance parameter in the ECM. 30 degrees of spark advance is pretty normal.

As Aaron says, there's no way to adjust spark timing on this engine. You've got a mechanical issue somewhere if you're hearing metal on metal noises.

Also, I don't mean any offense, but just because you tell us the job was done properly doesn't make it so.

aiixon · 10-14-2009, 07:38 PM

Alright well when I was using a diagnostic scanner it said my timing was 30 degrees advanced.

I took it all apart, checked everything before I put it back together and all the parts were fine, juts normal wear. I took the heads to a machine shop and they were severely warped, but were salvaged and they were taken down to only 2 or 3 thousandths. When I put the engine back together I put all the gaskets on correctly and used RTV in the places it was needed. I used new head bolts. Everything was torqued to spec, and the push rods were in the right places. I put all the longer ones matched up with the exhaust valves and the shorter ones with the intakes. All hoses and connections, etc. were properly put back together. All wires and connections were connected.
The spark plug wires are in the right places, I checked 5 times. I didn't touch anything on the block.

What could be throwing the timing off?

2000 GT Coupe · 10-14-2009, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiixon

Alright well when I was using a diagnostic scanner it said my timing was 30 degrees advanced.

I took it all apart, checked everything before I put it back together and all the parts were fine, juts normal wear. I took the heads to a machine shop and they were severely warped, but were salvaged and they were taken down to only 2 or 3 thousandths. When I put the engine back together I put all the gaskets on correctly and used RTV in the places it was needed. I used new head bolts. Everything was torqued to spec, and the push rods were in the right places. I put all the longer ones matched up with the exhaust valves and the shorter ones with the intakes. All hoses and connections, etc. were properly put back together. All wires and connections were connected.
The spark plug wires are in the right places, I checked 5 times. I didn't touch anything on the block.

What could be throwing the timing off?

I am not sure it is as critical on this engine, though I would think so, each push rod needs to go back to the same valve as before, just having all exhaust ones going to exhaust and so on is not the same.

Malaclypse · 10-14-2009, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiixon

Alright well when I was using a diagnostic scanner it said my timing was 30 degrees advanced.

...

What could be throwing the timing off?

Missing the point. That's normal operation. You're supposed to have advanced timing when the engine is running. I've seen up to 40 degrees of ignition advance before under the right conditions.

Think of it this way. A distributor can have either a vacuum or mechanical timing advance which is dependant on engine speed and load. Eliminate the distributor and the ECM has to take over these functions.

So there's base timing for cranking and just after starting. Then there's ignition advance which is PCM controlled during all other conditions. This operates the same way as a distributor without all the mess. So base timing cannot be changed unless you start moving the reluctor wheel on the crankshaft or reprogram the computer.

The Spark advance parameter in a scan tool is just spark timing before TDC. It does not need to be 0 in an engine without a distributor.

Edit: OP's age is 14?! That explains alot....

08-09-2009, 06:52 PM	#1
GrandAmGTTT Pontiac Club Toledo AKA: Josh Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Temperance, Michigan Posts: 390 Vehicle: 1999 Grand Am GT sedan	Crank Position Relearn Procedure I need to perform the crank position relearn procedure...can someone please tell me what that procedure is...? __________________ Pontiac Fuel For Your Soul!! Pontiac Club of Toledo- President Ohio Northern University Automotive Club- Vice President Flowmaster 80, MDS 8.5mm wires, NGK plugs, LS1 MAF, 65mm TCE TB, MPracing p&p UIM, EGR delete, CAI, heat shield tape, Custom tuned by Chris , ZEX wet kit, ac delete, Front+Rear drilled/slotted rotors, Eibach springs, Front+Rear strut bars, ported and matched 3500 UIM and 3400 LIM, Powder coated Upper/Lower Intake manifolds and valve covers

08-09-2009, 07:05 PM	#3
GrandAmGTTT Pontiac Club Toledo AKA: Josh Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Temperance, Michigan Posts: 390 Vehicle: 1999 Grand Am GT sedan	i have DHP tuner __________________ Pontiac Fuel For Your Soul!! Pontiac Club of Toledo- President Ohio Northern University Automotive Club- Vice President Flowmaster 80, MDS 8.5mm wires, NGK plugs, LS1 MAF, 65mm TCE TB, MPracing p&p UIM, EGR delete, CAI, heat shield tape, Custom tuned by Chris , ZEX wet kit, ac delete, Front+Rear drilled/slotted rotors, Eibach springs, Front+Rear strut bars, ported and matched 3500 UIM and 3400 LIM, Powder coated Upper/Lower Intake manifolds and valve covers

08-09-2009, 11:14 PM	#4
AaronGTR BlingWithBallz AKA: Aaron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Detroit area, MI Age: 43 Posts: 12,254 Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT1 2dr	In that case, open up your scanner. Go to the top of the window and click where it says "real time controls". There is an option for CASE learn. Click it and it will give you all the directions automatically and tell you when you've successfully completed it. Make sure the car is fully warmed up before you do it. __________________ The few, the proud, the boosted! 13.788 @ 103.73 mph (3/2011) 320 whp and 300 ft/lbs torque. (3/2011) See it here. the total package.

08-09-2009, 11:18 PM	#6
curtpank GAGT - Member AKA: Curt Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Winnipeg Manitoba Age: 50 Posts: 75 Vehicle: 2002 Grand Am GT Sedan	! Aaron - you and I replied at the exact same moment with the exact same info! It's true what they say about great minds... __________________ "Not Stock and Four Smoking Barrels" Dr. Speed CAI; WOT-Tech ported UIM and LIM; Billet 65mm Throttle body; S&S headers, downpipe and cat; Borla cat-back; custom PCM tune; front heated seats; altezza clear tails; 18" Core Racing Evo rims; 225/40ZR18 BF Goodrich G-Force KDW2 tires

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08-09-2009, 07:04 PM	#2
Mike Jung 400 hp & 410 lb-ft AKA: Mike Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,671 Vehicle: '14 Camaro SS RS coupe	You need (IIRC) someone with a Tech II tool or HP Tuner, etc... to do it.

10-12-2009, 03:01 PM	#7
aiixon got ma permit! AKA: Steffan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: 907 Age: 29 Posts: 830 Vehicle: 2000 GT Sedan	how can this be done without tuning software

10-12-2009, 06:41 PM	#9
aiixon got ma permit! AKA: Steffan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: 907 Age: 29 Posts: 830 Vehicle: 2000 GT Sedan	i have access to an OBDII scan tool tonight, ill see if it has that option. Im thinking that's what I need to do to correct the timing after doing the head gasket swap, its running really rough and has huge misfires with higher RPM's that sound like metal on metal. I'm really hoping the valves aren't smacking the pistons or my life is over...

10-12-2009, 09:53 PM	#10
350rs GAGT - Member AKA: Tom Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: St. Louis, MO Age: 33 Posts: 547 Vehicle: 01 GT, 89 L98 Camaro	OBD scanners that you get from your local parts store wont do it.

10-12-2009, 11:05 PM	#11
aiixon got ma permit! AKA: Steffan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: 907 Age: 29 Posts: 830 Vehicle: 2000 GT Sedan	k my friends dad neighbor has a snap on scanner tool that can do all this crap but it only goes up to 1999. we tried it and it doesnt work on my 2000. so ill ask my shop teacher if he has one that i could either borrow or tow my car in to use

10-13-2009, 08:27 PM	#14
aiixon got ma permit! AKA: Steffan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: 907 Age: 29 Posts: 830 Vehicle: 2000 GT Sedan	everything is done right trust me. somehow my timing is off by 30 degrees.

10-13-2009, 08:46 PM	#15
aiixon got ma permit! AKA: Steffan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: 907 Age: 29 Posts: 830 Vehicle: 2000 GT Sedan	I think my engine was running SOOO poorly before that it timed itself to run really bad and it should run so much better now that it is too far of an adjustment. As far as I know relearning things on the computer is the only way to mess with timing on this car. Well besides down at the camshaft or crank but I didn't get that far.

10-14-2009, 07:38 PM	#18
aiixon got ma permit! AKA: Steffan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: 907 Age: 29 Posts: 830 Vehicle: 2000 GT Sedan	Alright well when I was using a diagnostic scanner it said my timing was 30 degrees advanced. I took it all apart, checked everything before I put it back together and all the parts were fine, juts normal wear. I took the heads to a machine shop and they were severely warped, but were salvaged and they were taken down to only 2 or 3 thousandths. When I put the engine back together I put all the gaskets on correctly and used RTV in the places it was needed. I used new head bolts. Everything was torqued to spec, and the push rods were in the right places. I put all the longer ones matched up with the exhaust valves and the shorter ones with the intakes. All hoses and connections, etc. were properly put back together. All wires and connections were connected. The spark plug wires are in the right places, I checked 5 times. I didn't touch anything on the block. What could be throwing the timing off?