ABS and traction control, usless and dangerous?

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Okay, had a ridiculous arguement on another forum I'm apart of. Apparently according to two "highly experienced drivers", any sort of safety aid, ABS, traction control, and stability control, just give a false sense of security, have no use, make the car more dangerous to drive () and only people who have 0 driving skills need them. Then again, these two put themselves on such a high pedistal, of course they're right and everyone else was wrong. /sarcasim

Now, what do you folks think? I know the majority of you have a lot more know how and common sense than these two fools. Let loose your knowledge.

[2000 GT Coupe]

I do think they instill a false sense of safety, the system can fail, and as a driver that drives with out them can tell you if you mash that stop pedal too hard your wheels lock and you have no control, if you so used to the car keeping that from happening you can certainly crash.
Given that I do like the extra control those systems can give when used correct.

[AaronGTR]

Obviously they have their limits and aren't a cure all.... if you drive stupidly enough you can still crash with them. Anyone who has any decent driving skills understands this though. They can compensate for it and use those things to their advantage. And anyone who thinks their driving skills are so great they have to brag about them, is a tool and probably can't drive for ****. And for most people with no car control skills, ABS etc is definitely safer because they don't know how to not lock up their wheels in a panic stop. It's been scientifically proven over and over again. A car with ABS can stop faster than a car without.

[Panacea]

Yep, proven that ABS will stop you faster than the best driver in the world. It's impossible for a human to push the brake pedal as fast as teh ABS system applies the brakes.

I agree that they give the false sense of security, but they do help. However, give the best tools to an unexperienced person and they'll make a mess of things.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

But what made me go "WTF" was when the guy said he'd rather have all the wheels lock up because it is much safer to control the car in a four wheel lockup slide. Lulz. And that a car with ABS will take much more distance to stop than a car with all the wheels locked up. He's rather full of himself, so of course he's better than everyone.

[Panacea]

Originally Posted by [ChaosweaveR]

But what made me go "WTF" was when the guy said he'd rather have all the wheels lock up because it is much safer to control the car in a four wheel lockup slide. Lulz. And that a car with ABS will take much more distance to stop than a car with all the wheels locked up. He's rather full of himself, so of course he's better than everyone.

He probably believes seatbelts don't save lives either.

You sure he's not just messing with everyone?

[cardude007617]

i dont know about you guys, maybe its just my younger age (iv never owned a car without ABS, and only driven a few without it at work in snowy conditions), but its nice to not have to think about wheels locking up and sliding uncontrollably into a ditch/car when doing a panic stop in a blizzard. i think some of the other systems out today are sort of silly, but its fairly hard to say ABS is just overall a bad thing.

my parents still think they should pump the pedal even with ABS .

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Originally Posted by Panacea

He probably believes seatbelts don't save lives either.

You sure he's not just messing with everyone?

No, he's serious. Very sad actually.

If anything, go look for yourselves on my site. Beware, he just **** talks.
www.avantgardeautogroup.com

His sn is GrEmLiN. Look in the general discussion section, thread tittled "Anyone Can Read ABS codes?" Or something similar? It's about a hub bearing issue on a Saturn. He always loves to one up me. Enjoy the lulz.

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by [ChaosweaveR]

But what made me go "WTF" was when the guy said he'd rather have all the wheels lock up because it is much safer to control the car in a four wheel lockup slide. Lulz. And that a car with ABS will take much more distance to stop than a car with all the wheels locked up. He's rather full of himself, so of course he's better than everyone.

Originally Posted by [ChaosweaveR]

No, he's serious. Very sad actually.

If anything, go look for yourselves on my site. Beware, he just **** talks.
www.avantgardeautogroup.com

His sn is GrEmLiN. Look in the general discussion section, thread tittled "Anyone Can Read ABS codes?" Or something similar? It's about a hub bearing issue on a Saturn. He always loves to one up me. Enjoy the lulz.

I didn't see the thread. This guy sounds so stupid I almost want to join up just to tell him to stop misinforming people... but I'm not gonna. I'll reply here though and feel free to quote me in that thread if you want.

Locking up all four wheels is the dumbest most dangerous thing you can do! When that happens you don't have any control at all. While the wheels are still turning (ie what the ABS does) you can still steer and control the car. And a car braking with it's wheel at the limit of locking up will always stop faster than a car whose wheels have locked up and is sliding. Scientific fact!

I read an article in sport compact car about tires and how they work. The most important thing is the scientific properties of rubber and the fact it is the only substance that is viscous and elastic and yet retains it's shape. While the tire is bending and flexing as it spins around, the surface of the rubber that comes in contact with the road actually flows into the surface texture of the pavement and creates friction which gives you grip. The amount of grip is dependent on the surface area of the tire and the weight (or pressure) applied to it. If the pressure from the side (steering or cornering) or the pressure from front or back (accelerating/braking) becomes too much for the amount of friction you have (grip) then the tire starts to slide. Once that happens it stops flowing into the surface and the friction coefficient drops below the maximum level. In plain english... when your tires lock up you have less grip.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Seriously, join up and tell him. The thread was actually deleted out (he said it "looked bad" rofl) he's such a pompous ass, I would love to see you put him in his place BADLY.

[plastic_indian]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

I read an article in sport compact car about tires and how they work. The most important thing is the scientific properties of rubber and the fact it is the only substance that is viscous and elastic and yet retains it's shape. While the tire is bending and flexing as it spins around, the surface of the rubber that comes in contact with the road actually flows into the surface texture of the pavement and creates friction which gives you grip. The amount of grip is dependent on the surface area of the tire and the weight (or pressure) applied to it. If the pressure from the side (steering or cornering) or the pressure from front or back (accelerating/braking) becomes too much for the amount of friction you have (grip) then the tire starts to slide. Once that happens it stops flowing into the surface and the friction coefficient drops below the maximum level. In plain english... when your tires lock up you have less grip.

A good plain-English explanation of this can be found in Herb Adams' book "Chassis Engineering" where the "circle of traction" concept is discussed.

[AaronGTR]

Yeah, I've heard of the circle of traction concept before. It's a good way of explaining handling but it's really related more to fast driving and being able to balance steering, side load, acceleration, and braking with the amount of available traction. It's only indirectly related to the topic of how the rubber in the tire actually works. The basic point is that once the tire starts to slide it's grip is less than when the tire is rolling and you lose the ability to really control the car.

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by [ChaosweaveR]

Seriously, join up and tell him. The thread was actually deleted out (he said it "looked bad" rofl) he's such a pompous ass, I would love to see you put him in his place BADLY.

Well, if it's his forum, or he at least has moderator powers enough to delete threads, he'd probably just delete any threads I made and ban me. No need for me to waste my time. I don't really get my jollies off by searching out idiots on the internet to prove them wrong. Got better things to do.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Actually the dude isn't a mod, he asked for the thread to be deleted by someone else. I'm a mod over there Aaron, he isn't. You'd teach him a thing or too. He's some 20 year old who thinks he grew up in 1969, and needs a wake up call.

Alas, if you don't want to, I can't force ya.

[oldschoolguy]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

The basic point is that once the tire starts to slide it's grip is less than when the tire is rolling and you lose the ability to really control the car.

Thats just the difference between static and kinetic friction. It works with anything. If you have a block on a board and you tilt it, you'll need to tilt it a long ways to get it moving, and then once its moving you can lower the board past the point where the block started to slide and it will keep sliding

[himfanzach]

Skimed but do agree with false sense some people do count on them as a cure all. Now i never really used them other then snow braking I hate traction contol stability control in nice but here the problem most of us are accumsted to these what happens when we drive a car that doesn't have this and don't relize till to late!!

[Malaclypse]

The biggest problem with people who drive these days is that the majority of them lack sufficient knowledge to actually control a vehicle during emergency situations.

Driver's Ed is so lacking its ridiculous... Driving is looked upon as a right in the United states instead of a privelidge. There should be a car control and awareness test that should have to be passed in order to drive.

The only issue with that is that american cities are so spread out that public transit doesn't work. That or it's too costly a program to support without charing patrons an arm and a leg.

Sigh... Guess people who actually know how to drive are doomed.

[AaronGTR]

They should have a drivers training program like they have in Finland. I saw them talking about it on an episode of Top Gear. In Finland the kids start driving early and even learn how to race and drift. They have to pass a car control test on a wet skid pad as well. They have to have drivers tests like that since so many of their roads are rural with lots of hills and blind corners and tons of snow and ice in the winter.... regular driving over there is like being in a WRC race.

[oldschoolguy]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

They should have a drivers training program like they have in Finland. I saw them talking about it on an episode of Top Gear. In Finland the kids start driving early and even learn how to race and drift. They have to pass a car control test on a wet skid pad as well. They have to have drivers tests like that since so many of their roads are rural with lots of hills and blind corners and tons of snow and ice in the winter.... regular driving over there is like being in a WRC race.

I'm gonna immigrate

[Mike Jung]

Originally Posted by cardude007617

...my parents still think they should pump the pedal even with ABS .

Why would you pump the brakes on purpose ?

You were taught threshold braking

I was taught driving before ABS was common ?



PS: Do they still teach/talk about how to threshold brake in driver's ed ?