ABS and traction control, usless and dangerous?

[lone_wolf025]

I forget who did this, but one of the big name car magazines (or maybe it was even popular mechanics?) pitted a professional driver against a couple novices on a road course. First runs were done with stability/traction control and ABS. Second runs were done with all the systems turned off. The professional had to fight the stability control at times because the limits he could push the car to handle were beyond the "safety parameters" for the average joe blow driver. First runs went to the novices clocking slightly better. Second runs were night and day difference. The novices had terrible times and braking distances and in some instances nearly ran off the track whereas the pro did much better.

Basically it confirmed what us common sense inflicted folk already know: systems are good for the novice but useless for the pro.

[cardude007617]

Originally Posted by Mike Jung

Why would you pump the brakes on purpose ?

You were taught threshold braking

I was taught driving before ABS was common ?



PS: Do they still teach/talk about how to threshold brake in driver's ed ?

haha i dont know, i was taught in drivers ed to use the "plant your foot and let the car/ electronics take over" technique for emergency stops. I do know how to "feel" for that spot just before the ABS kicks in,

we'll see this winter what my parents do when they need to stop quick in the snow. funny part is, my parents have had their 09 forester for almost a year now, and my father still hasn't driven it in snow.

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by lone_wolf025

I forget who did this, but one of the big name car magazines (or maybe it was even popular mechanics?) pitted a professional driver against a couple novices on a road course. First runs were done with stability/traction control and ABS. Second runs were done with all the systems turned off. The professional had to fight the stability control at times because the limits he could push the car to handle were beyond the "safety parameters" for the average joe blow driver. First runs went to the novices clocking slightly better. Second runs were night and day difference. The novices had terrible times and braking distances and in some instances nearly ran off the track whereas the pro did much better.

Basically it confirmed what us common sense inflicted folk already know: systems are good for the novice but useless for the pro.

That isn't 100% accurate though. I've seen magazine tests where even pros could not brake as fast with ABS off compared to a car with ABS. It doesn't matter if you are a professional race driver or not. A human being can not physically react and cycle the brakes as fast as a computer. The one point no one has brought up yet though, and it's a rather important one, is how good the factory ABS and/or traction and stability control systems are tuned. There are major differences between manufacturers and even individual car models in how good their systems work. You can see it in some car shows when they test new cars. Some stability control programs are so good they are almost invisible while they are working. Some you can feel them interfering with your inputs.

A very simple example of this would be comparing a corvette to a grand am. The corvette obviously has better handling and has much better systems. The GA only has traction control and ABS, where the corvette also has stability control and all it's systems work better than in the GA. It's a sports car with a premium price, so GM used higher end equipment and spent a lot more timing testing and programming those systems than they did in the GA. I'm sure they figured in a mass market consumption car like the GA no one would notice or care about the difference.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

A bit of an update on my old forum:

I got fed up with the garbage, and quit the forum. But I forgot one of them was a member on here, so he was lurking about, checking up on me and made this thread on AGA:

http://avantgardeautogroup.com/forum...22.msg3069#new

Enjoy. Lulz

[AaronGTR]

that guy is a tool. He's ignoring every bit of scientific testing ever done by every magazine and car company in existence. A properly tuned ABS system can stop faster than any human being can even in dry conditions. THAT is the fact! The problem with threshold braking is knowing when you are there. Most people don't know. Even trained drivers don't really know where the limit is until they've passed it... meaning they've locked the wheels and lost it. Proper ABS can find the threshold and hold it there.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

I had to deal with him in person, imagine how I feel about what he thinks. I'm glad I don't have to hear it anymore. He lurks on here, but doesn't have the balls to post here.

BTW, I'm always learning something new from you and MJ.

[2000 GT Coupe]

Originally Posted by lone_wolf025

I forget who did this, but one of the big name car magazines (or maybe it was even popular mechanics?) pitted a professional driver against a couple novices on a road course. First runs were done with stability/traction control and ABS. Second runs were done with all the systems turned off. The professional had to fight the stability control at times because the limits he could push the car to handle were beyond the "safety parameters" for the average joe blow driver. First runs went to the novices clocking slightly better. Second runs were night and day difference. The novices had terrible times and braking distances and in some instances nearly ran off the track whereas the pro did much better.

Basically it confirmed what us common sense inflicted folk already know: systems are good for the novice but useless for the pro.

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

That isn't 100% accurate though. I've seen magazine tests where even pros could not brake as fast with ABS off compared to a car with ABS. It doesn't matter if you are a professional race driver or not. A human being can not physically react and cycle the brakes as fast as a computer. The one point no one has brought up yet though, and it's a rather important one, is how good the factory ABS and/or traction and stability control systems are tuned. There are major differences between manufacturers and even individual car models in how good their systems work. You can see it in some car shows when they test new cars. Some stability control programs are so good they are almost invisible while they are working. Some you can feel them interfering with your inputs.

A very simple example of this would be comparing a corvette to a grand am. The corvette obviously has better handling and has much better systems. The GA only has traction control and ABS, where the corvette also has stability control and all it's systems work better than in the GA. It's a sports car with a premium price, so GM used higher end equipment and spent a lot more timing testing and programming those systems than they did in the GA. I'm sure they figured in a mass market consumption car like the GA no one would notice or care about the difference.

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

that guy is a tool. He's ignoring every bit of scientific testing ever done by every magazine and car company in existence. A properly tuned ABS system can stop faster than any human being can even in dry conditions. THAT is the fact! The problem with threshold braking is knowing when you are there. Most people don't know. Even trained drivers don't really know where the limit is until they've passed it... meaning they've locked the wheels and lost it. Proper ABS can find the threshold and hold it there.

I agree these systems used with common sense are very good. However there is more to it then just how fast the abs system can stop you. If your abs fails and you "plant" your foot as hard as you can your done.
Stability control is another area I think is a problem, if your trying to ride the limits of control the stability control will not let you.
Traction control, if your attempting to get the best take off that system will screw you.
But for normal driving situations they are very good systems.

[AaronGTR]

Again, that really depends on how the stability control is programmed and varies from car to car.

[Panacea]

Originally Posted by 2000 GT Coupe

I agree these systems used with common sense are very good. However there is more to it then just how fast the abs system can stop you. If your abs fails and you "plant" your foot as hard as you can your done.
Stability control is another area I think is a problem, if your trying to ride the limits of control the stability control will not let you.
Traction control, if your attempting to get the best take off that system will screw you.
But for normal driving situations they are very good systems.

If the ABS Fails it fails. Nothing you can do about that. If your car is properly maintained you should never have to worry about that. It's a moot point.

Your description of stability control are for people who are trying to autocross. The fact is, the system is set up for real world, every day scenario's, not for people trying to push the limit of their cars. So, your average passenger car will not handle like a sports car, as was mentioned. It's just a fact of life. The fact is, stability control can help prevent an accident and, just like everything, it's not going to work in every situation.

[CrimsonGT]

I agree ABS is a proven safety fact it will stop faster then non Abs any day of the week simply because ABS does not lock your wheel's up and throw you into a spin. I have owned 2 car's w/o ABS a 70 skylark GS and a 78 F-100 and i can tell you 1st hand that if you stomped on the peddle of either one you was going for a ride. What that slap nut's is not taking to account is the force of all that weight being forced forward it's still going to push you up the road no matter what.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

I mean, ABS can really save your ass in a freak situation. I almost got hit by a stupid chick in a Cavalier during the summer ( she was at a stop sign, and she darted out in front of me at the last second) and I'm thankful the ABS was there to kick in, after avoiding the car and putting me on the wrong side of the road, I feel the backend of the GA give, I countersteer, and lightly hit the brakes, and I feel the ABS kicking in. The car slides in the other direction, but I hit the brakes harder, and the car straightens as I dabbed the gas. This was on dry pavement. As Aaron said, the computer can compensate better than any person will, racecar driver or not.

[2000 GT Coupe]

I have had way more experience with non-ABS cars, and have experience with cars with much better abs and stability controls, and because of that I tend to not rely on abs. Though as I have said, and continue to say with plenty of common sense the systems they have are very nice.