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Old 04-02-2012, 11:17 AM   #161
AaronGTR
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Finally have an update.

I had to wait a while before I could go ahead and get the car fixed. I was leaving it parked and mostly ridding my bike everywhere. I was going to cost over $2k just to have the shop pull my engine and inspect it. Someone I work with let me borrow their carport and their neighbor had an engine hoist they let me borrow so I could pull the engine myself instead. Rented a truck and took it to the shop... $400 for them to tear down, clean, and inspect everything. Unfortunately it's not just one rod bearing... ALL the crank and rod bearings are F'ked up.

The only good news is that the shop foreman said it doesn't look like it was any problem with the way I assembled the engine. He said it looked like it was from detonation. IE the rod bearings on the cap side were fine, but on the top on the rod side they had contact marks, so it was probably from detonation forcing the rods down and smashing the bearings. The oil pressure started dropping when one bearing went bad, and he said when that happens and the pressure drops, you lose the cushion between the parts on all the other bearings and it allows them to contact.

The really bad news is that it's going to cost a lot more to fix than I anticipated. I thought it be maybe another $600-800, but they are recommending the rework all the rod ends to size them perfectly for a new set of bearings, along with ARP rod bolts, and they want to replace the main cap bolts with ARP studs and line bore the caps as well. All that plus reassembly of the long block will be $1700! They normally charge $400 for a complete balancing of the rotating assembly as well, but he told me since they will already be re-balancing the crank, they'd do the rest for and extra $310. So for $2010 I'll have a completely balanced and reinforced bottom end.... it's just way more than I wanted to do on this engine right now. At least all the rods and pistons are ok so they can re-use those. I would be tempted to go ahead and get forged pistons and a new cam from comp, but I can't afford the $800 and 6 week lead time for pistons and the $300+ and wait for the cam either. I'll just have to do a cam later if I feel like it.

I was going to try and put a salvage yard engine in it temporarily and drive it like that until I could save up money for the engine rebuild. That turned into a whole FUBAR situation though. I went to the only salvage yard close to me that had a 3400 from an 01 grand am with 96k on it... there were no others close by with less miles or under $1k... and they wouldn't let me inspect the engine first and also didn't tell me there were no refunds. I got it home and the piece of sh!t was locked up! Whole engine was seized. The valve covers weren't bolted down and loose, and didn't have any gaskets under them. They had taken the engine out of the car and power washed it, and everything inside was full of sand and water! It was rusted like a mofo. So I took it back and they tried to haggle with me and give another engine (like I was gonna trust ANY parts from them!) and then they offered to drop the engine off for me or bring my car in and they'd install it for me ( AS IF I'd EVER let them touch my car! ). Finally I bitched them out enough and threatened to take them to court and they just gave me a refund, but insisted on charging me a 25% "restocking" fee... like it was my fault I was bringing the engine back 'cause they sold me a piece of sh!t engine! But I needed the money back to fix my engine and didn't have time to argue with them any more so I took it. Ended up losing about $300 on that deal with the truck rental.


So bottom line is, I'm getting my engine fixed. I already ordered the gaskets I needed. ARP fasteners are coming from WOT-tech. I'm going to drop all that off at the engine shop this week and pay half up front to get them started, then pay the rest when I pick up the engine. I still don't know what to do about the detonation though. I never had that much detonation on the stock engine. On the last rebuild my piston to wall clearance was high and the rings were worn so I was getting a lot of blow by and probably had lower cylinder pressures. After the over bore the seal was probably much tighter and may have raised cylinder pressures. Also the 1mm overbore combined with the stock head gasket will result in a tiny increase in CR. I don't know which one was responsible for the KR, but it would kick in sometimes as soon as I'd go into boost. I had bigger injectors and was using 93 octane. I tried pulling timing with DHP and Eddie's table modifier too, but I don't think it was working. I couldn't tell if it reduced timing or not. So for now I think I'm going to leave the supercharger off and drive it NA. I don't want to ruin a brand new $2k+ engine. Once I can afford to get an alky/water injection system, and figure out the tuning a little better, then it should be safe to put it back on.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:27 AM   #162
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Damn man, that really sucks. If I would have won that Mega Millions I would bought the engine for you, . Hopefully it all works out soon man.
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Old 04-02-2012, 12:24 PM   #163
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any way u can post pics of those bearings? Im not sold on the detonation as a root cause. Whats up with the mains?
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Old 04-02-2012, 01:34 PM   #164
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Wow man I can't believe all the **** you are going through. And here I thought I had terrible luck. Hope you get it back onto the road soon and that it will be the end of your problems. I've been wanting to tear into mine and fix some issues that I believe will come up if they aren't addressed. Good luck!
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:55 PM   #165
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Wow sorry to hear that Aaron!!! ****y luck.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:26 AM   #166
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any way u can post pics of those bearings? Im not sold on the detonation as a root cause. Whats up with the mains?

No, I have no car to drive so I have no way to go to the engine shop and see them until I have my friend drive me there to drop my parts off and make a payment. Also I'm much more inclined to believe their explanation about detonation than any theory you come up with. This is what they do for a living man. They are a professional engine performance and machine shop.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:38 AM   #167
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is this the same shop you had problems with before.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:46 PM   #168
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No, I have no car to drive so I have no way to go to the engine shop and see them until I have my friend drive me there to drop my parts off and make a payment. Also I'm much more inclined to believe their explanation about detonation than any theory you come up with. This is what they do for a living man. They are a professional engine performance and machine shop.
I was just curious about that one rod u had changed out before and what kind of shape its bearing was in.... It is all academic anyway as the route you are going will take of any prob the bottom may had.
It just seems for you to have detonation that severe you would have noticed it.
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:08 PM   #169
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is this the same shop you had problems with before.
I never had problems with the shop before. I did use them before, and I did have a problem with the heads they worked on for me, but they guaranteed their work and fixed the problem for me for free. The heads had been modified previously before they got them, so there is no telling what caused that issue, or if it's definitely gone since I actually haven't put those heads back on the car yet. I'm having them re-install those heads when the put the engine back together this time, so I'll find out how they work this time.

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I was just curious about that one rod u had changed out before and what kind of shape its bearing was in.... It is all academic anyway as the route you are going will take of any prob the bottom may had.
It just seems for you to have detonation that severe you would have noticed it.
Yeah, I don't know about that rod. I gave the new one to them and asked them to check it over and they said everything was good. It got installed in #2 where the bad one had been. They said all the pistons, rings, wrist pins, and rods are still good so I will be re-using them. They are just replacing all the rod bolts and main bolts with ARP fasteners, so they will be honing all the big ends of the rods and line honing the mains. They will machine the crank and balance the whole rotating assembly, get the necessary bearings, and re-assemble the engine for me.

And it's not that I didn't notice the detonation. I knew it was there. It was never that severe though. No more than maybe 6 degrees KR. Usually 4 or less. It just started way earlier and lasted longer than before. Before the head gaskets blew last time, I'd only get 3-4 degrees in the last 1-2k of the rev range at WOT. After the rebuild I'd get around 1 degree as soon as I got past 100kpa and into boost, which could happen as low as 3000rpm. So if it was in boost, it would see detonation for a longer period. I tried to stay out of boost during daily driving, but while scanning I'd get on it for short bursts so I could record where the KR was and try and pull timing there. It just never seemed to go down or do any good. It never went away. Either the tuning program wasn't working properly, or I was doing something wrong in the process.

Using the combination of DHP, tiny tuner, and Eddies table modifier is not that easy IMO and it's not easy to interpret all the data and make proper changes. Many of the tables are not clearly explained as far as what they do or how to modify them. It would be easier if there was a better tuning program. I've never used HPT so I don't know how easy/effective it is in regards to changing timing. I don't really want to pay another $650 for another tuner package though if I don't have to, since I already have one. Only reason I would consider it would be if I bought a v8 car in the future like a GTO or C5. But anyway I think the biggest problem with my setup now is just the slight increase in compression along with the boost and no intercooler just won't work without detonation... or at least that's how it appears. I really think I just need an alky kit, and it would make more power anyway.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:08 PM   #170
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Honestly I am highly surprised your not running a intercooler under boost. For like $200 you can get one slapped in and that will help with some of your detonation issues. You also could put a wet kit on it like Nick-G is doing to his turbo build but they are not really recommended for daily driving.
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Old 04-04-2012, 03:17 AM   #171
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Honestly I am highly surprised your not running a intercooler under boost. For like $200 you can get one slapped in and that will help with some of your detonation issues. You also could put a wet kit on it like Nick-G is doing to his turbo build but they are not really recommended for daily driving.
..or perhaps try to back down the cr..are there any thicker head gasket options? I would think an injection system would do wonders..the decades every supercharged engine in aircraft had water or alky injection to help counter detonation at lower altitudes.
The piston face of these engines dont have valve reliefs, which promote detonation. But one look at the chambers and you can see all kinds of problems. You need good head man to clean up those chambers...the edge of quinch is looks too sharp..Just a slight radius around the chamber edge should help and the boss around the plug looks like it may be a potential hotspot also.
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:58 AM   #172
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if you've been paying attention to this thread, or any of Aaron's threads, you've seen him talk about intercooling or meth kit at least 50 times.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:15 AM   #173
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Honestly I am highly surprised your not running a intercooler under boost. For like $200 you can get one slapped in and that will help with some of your detonation issues. You also could put a wet kit on it like Nick-G is doing to his turbo build but they are not really recommended for daily driving.

, uh no... $200 wouldn't even come close to doing it. I've looked into it. And there are space limitations.


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..or perhaps try to back down the cr..are there any thicker head gasket options?

Nope. You can get thicker head gaskets if you go with MLS gaskets from cometic, but those cause a whole other host of problems. The best way to lower CR on this engine IMO is using 3500 heads, or custom pistons to adjust the CR.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:35 AM   #174
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Nope. You can get thicker head gaskets if you go with MLS gaskets from cometic, but those cause a whole other host of problems. The best way to lower CR on this engine IMO is using 3500 heads, or custom pistons to adjust the CR.
they only cause problems if the surfaces aren't prepared properly.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:58 AM   #175
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, uh no... $200 wouldn't even come close to doing it. I've looked into it. And there are space limitations.
All I was saying is you can get a intercooler for probably around there. I have a connection to Spearco intercoolers and I pay close to cost for them. The one I will be running is 3.5"x8"x28" and it can handle 500HP. I know space is a concern when trying to install a intercooler but I really believe it will help you and possibly changing over to a wet kit. I would think living in Florida a intercooler would be a must especially on a DD. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 04-04-2012, 03:37 PM   #176
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Intercooling the supercharged kit on these cars isn't easy by any means, its a pain to install it stock as it is...not much room left over.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:00 PM   #177
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Also a2a does not work well with a roots supercharger.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:46 PM   #178
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^Exactly. You don't normally use an air/air IC on a roots supercharged car. For one, it kills the response and lowers the total boost, and also at lower boost levels that type of intercooler isn't efficient enough. You get more heat transfer with an a2a when the temperature differential between the outside air and the charge air is higher, such as with higher boost levels from a turbo. And a turbo can compensate for lost compression in the IC and charge pipes by simply keeping the waste gate open.

I'd need an air/water IC with a smaller core and shorter charge pipes. There isn't much room to fit it in the engine bay or fender well. The cheap a2w intercoolers have crappy cores that don't flow well and have poor heat transfer, and good spearco ones are expensive. And I'd need space for a heat exchanger, pump, reservoir.... and the cost of that stuff adds up fast!

An alcohol/water injection system is a much simpler, more compact, and cheaper option... plus you get the added bonus of extra fuel and much higher octane, and even better detonation resistance and power gain than an a2w IC because it cools the charge air more effectively.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:59 PM   #179
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If you have welder, a you can easily mount an A2W in the fenderwell by building a cradle/frame for it out of steel rods. You just have to cut out a lot of the fender, and make a few other mods. ( I should reinstate that thread, )

On the tuning issue that results from remote intercooling, I am not sure if the cause is bypass-related, or problems from the use of the 2 inch pulley. The bypass was the last thing I was working on when the tranny went out.

But the last good session I ran, I had just upgraded to 36 lb injectors, and there was absolutely zero knock, on 3 runs at the track.
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:05 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronGTR View Post
^Exactly. You don't normally use an air/air IC on a roots supercharged car. For one, it kills the response and lowers the total boost, and also at lower boost levels that type of intercooler isn't efficient enough. You get more heat transfer with an a2a when the temperature differential between the outside air and the charge air is higher, such as with higher boost levels from a turbo. And a turbo can compensate for lost compression in the IC and charge pipes by simply keeping the waste gate open.

I'd need an air/water IC with a smaller core and shorter charge pipes. There isn't much room to fit it in the engine bay or fender well. The cheap a2w intercoolers have crappy cores that don't flow well and have poor heat transfer, and good spearco ones are expensive. And I'd need space for a heat exchanger, pump, reservoir.... and the cost of that stuff adds up fast!

An alcohol/water injection system is a much simpler, more compact, and cheaper option... plus you get the added bonus of extra fuel and much higher octane, and even better detonation resistance and power gain than an a2w IC because it cools the charge air more effectively.
I hope someone finally does perfect the alc injection for use on our setups. Looks like more of you are going to try it in the near future, and hopefully great things will happen
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