Timing chain

[chris_gt_74]

I'm fixing to order the stuff from GM to replace the timing chain on my car that is rattling. I'm doing it for the sound and as piece of mind since I just got heads and new valves. I didn't notice the sound until after I had installed everything of course. It was recommended to me to stay away from the aftermarket chain kits and get the GM stuff for a 99. I'm fine with that, but what I need to know is if I should replace the cam and crank gears to or should the chain and damper do the job?

[juanvan]

As with Motorcycles you should change the Gears and Chain at the same time b.c they wear the same. The Chain guides also need to be changed while your in there, since they also wear to the chain stretching over time.
How many miles are on the car?

[mfuller]

Replace the gears with the new chain and damper.

[chris_gt_74]

Originally Posted by juanvan

As with Motorcycles you should change the Gears and Chain at the same time b.c they wear the same. The Chain guides also need to be changed while your in there, since they also wear to the chain stretching over time.
How many miles are on the car?

Does the 3.4l grand am even have chain guides? I saw no mention of such a part on the website I am buying from. The car has around 100k.

[geldartb]

it looks like this


damper
ACDELCO Part # 24507720

Engine Camshaft Sprocket
24506089

Engine Crankshaft/Timing Sprocket
12568125

chain
24506090

all GM part numbers going by your car which is an 05

[juanvan]

Def time to update the Chains

[chris_gt_74]

Yeah I was getting a damper. Just asking if I needed the gears as well. I will be ordering all of it just to be safe.

[AaronGTR]

If you are changing to the 96-99 chain, then you have to change the cam gear and the crank gear no matter what, because it's a thicker chain and uses different gears. If you stay with the stock chain for your year, you can get away with only replacing the chain and damper IF your gears are in good shape and don't have too many miles on them. It's better to replace them of course, but the crank gear needs some special tools to remove and install. You could also just replace the cam gear if you wanted, as it's a little easier to change and isn't too expensive. If you are planning on going with a bigger cam and stiffer springs in the future, you might want the earlier model chain and gear set, since those will put more load on the timing chain.

[chris_gt_74]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

If you are changing to the 96-99 chain, then you have to change the cam gear and the crank gear no matter what, because it's a thicker chain and uses different gears. If you stay with the stock chain for your year, you can get away with only replacing the chain and damper IF your gears are in good shape and don't have too many miles on them. It's better to replace them of course, but the crank gear needs some special tools to remove and install. You could also just replace the cam gear if you wanted, as it's a little easier to change and isn't too expensive. If you are planning on going with a bigger cam and stiffer springs in the future, you might want the earlier model chain and gear set, since those will put more load on the timing chain.

What kind of tool are we talking here? I know I need a puller for the crank pulley. Also are their any magic ways to keep the cam and crank in time when torquing the cam gear and crank bolt?

[chris_gt_74]

Can someone confirm these part numbers for me? I'm switching from the 05 timing set to the 99 set because it was suggested to be a bit more robust.


10166352 Chain
10166350 Cam gear
14074400 Crank gear
10166353 Damper

Also which of these gasket kits do I need? One has a sleeve or something. Sorry I've never changed any of this stuff before so I'm full of questions and I want to do it right the first time.

TCS45828
TCS45976

[geldartb]

Originally Posted by chris_gt_74

Can someone confirm these part numbers for me? I'm switching from the 05 timing set to the 99 set because it was suggested to be a bit more robust.


10166352 Chain
10166350 Cam gear
14074400 Crank gear
10166353 Damper

Also which of these gasket kits do I need? One has a sleeve or something. Sorry I've never changed any of this stuff before so I'm full of questions and I want to do it right the first time.

TCS45828
TCS45976

your good on the timing set part numbers

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by chris_gt_74

What kind of tool are we talking here? I know I need a puller for the crank pulley. Also are their any magic ways to keep the cam and crank in time when torquing the cam gear and crank bolt?

Well, in my manual they have a specific GM part number for a tool they use to remove the crank sprocket, and another one to install it. The pic of the removal tool looks like a basic gear puller. The installation tool is like a threaded rod that screws into the end of the crank shaft, and has a tube that fits over the crank snout with a nut behind it, so you can turn the nut and it pushes the tube and pushes the crank gear evenly down the snout.

The gear is slotted and fits over a key in the crank (which also makes sure it's lined up properly for timing), so it's not actually a press fit, but it may still be tight. They tell you to put engine pre-lube on the crank before pressing it on. I don't know if heating the gear in an oven first to expand the metal would make it easy enough to push on by hand or not. I haven't actually needed to remove mine. I've only replaced the chain, damper, and cam gear.

As for keeping the timing, it's very simple. You install the crank gear and the chain damper first. There is a dimple in the face of one of the crank gear teeth. That is the timing mark. Line that up straight up with the timing mark on the bottom of the damper. The chain has to be put on at the same time as the cam gear because it's a tight fit, so the timing will stay the same once you put it on. There is a notch in the cam gear that fits over the dowel on the end of the camshaft. Position the cam so the dowel is on the right, 90 degrees from the bottom. With the cam gear in the same position, there will be a hole in the gear face at the bottom, in between two of the slots. That is the cam gear timing mark. Hang the chain on the cam gear, then line the chain up on the teeth of the crank gear so that the timing marks will all line up, and slide the cam gear onto the cam over the dowel. Make sure all the marks are lined up and put the cam bolt in, and tighten it to 103 lb ft. You'll need to hold the flywheel with a pry bar or otherwise immobilize the engine to do it. Also make sure to give the chain and both gears a light coating of engine oil when you are done.


For the gasket kits, where did you get those part numbers from, or what brand are you looking at? I tried looking them up but they aren't GM part numbers. I know Fel-pro makes what they call a "conversion gasket set". It comes with gaskets for the front cover, water pump, oil pan, a crank seal for the front cover, and I believe a rear main seal as well. It's made for multiple cars and years so it also comes with a bunch of gaskets and O-rings you won't need, but it's only $27 and if you don't need all those gaskets now, you can save them in case you need 'em for future repairs.

[chris_gt_74]

The 2 part numbers are both Fel-Pro gasket sets. They are the same except for one has a repair sleeve and loctite as far as I can see. The part number's are from Orielly's.

These are the included gaskets and it's super cheap at a whopping $8.


Several searches said you can use a large socket or an appropriately sized piece of pipe with a big washer on the end and use the crank bolt to push the crank gear back on. I guess I'm just going to see what I can come up with when I actually go to install it or see if I can rent a tool.

Actually if push comes to shove I may just buy a new harmonic balancer. They have one for $60.

[locoman99]

if your gears look good and you dont need to change them. Gears should out last 2 chains if it has been well lubricated and not ran with a loose chain for too long it should be good. A chain stretches that wears the gears which causes the chain too get even looser. If the lands of the gear are true, you are good. If you have the budget and time to change them, of course do it.

[chris_gt_74]

Originally Posted by locoman99

if your gears look good and you dont need to change them. Gears should out last 2 chains if it has been well lubricated and not ran with a loose chain for too long it should be good. A chain stretches that wears the gears which causes the chain too get even looser. If the lands of the gear are true, you are good. If you have the budget and time to change them, of course do it.

Well with me switching to the 99 chain I have to change the gears according to what I've heard. Besides if I'm in there I may as well get all new parts.

[locoman99]

Originally Posted by chris_gt_74

Well with me switching to the 99 chain I have to change the gears according to what I've heard. Besides if I'm in there I may as well get all new parts.

is it enough of an upgrade to go through the trouble...i havent really heard of a weakness issue or failure issues with later ones..am i missing something? I have not really looked into it alot to be honest. So what makes a 2000 up chain better in the real world (n/a engine) than later sets? Some times the "in theory" upgrades are the biggest waste of time and money.

[chris_gt_74]

Originally Posted by locoman99

is it enough of an upgrade to go through the trouble...i havent really heard of a weakness issue or failure issues with later ones..am i missing something? I have not really looked into it alot to be honest. So what makes a 2000 up chain better in the real world (n/a engine) than later sets? Some times the "in theory" upgrades are the biggest waste of time and money.

I don't know really. I was told by Ben and a couple of other members that the 99 chain was more robust.

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by chris_gt_74

The 2 part numbers are both Fel-Pro gasket sets. They are the same except for one has a repair sleeve and loctite as far as I can see. The part number's are from Orielly's.

These are the included gaskets and it's super cheap at a whopping $8.


Several searches said you can use a large socket or an appropriately sized piece of pipe with a big washer on the end and use the crank bolt to push the crank gear back on. I guess I'm just going to see what I can come up with when I actually go to install it or see if I can rent a tool.

Actually if push comes to shove I may just buy a new harmonic balancer. They have one for $60.

Yeah, I usually search for gaskets on advance auto parts website since they are close to me, and they don't show those gasket sets from fel-pro. All they show is the top end stuff and then the complete bottom end. Either way, all you really need is the paper gasket for the front cover, and if they have the crank seal for the front cover you can replace that too. It can be a b!tch to get in and out, but it's easier if the cover is off. Remember to spray the paper gasket with some gasket sealer spray. I use the red high tack stuff from Permatex.

For installing the gear, I definitely would NOT use the crank bolt. I thought about using a pipe or socket to fit over the crank, but the problem is you need a bolt that will seat fully in the crank first and then have a nut to turn down. You don't want to try and draw it in with the bolt. Many people have tried to do this with their crank pulleys and stripped the threads out on their crank shaft and junked them! It's a special fine pitch thread and will strip easily if you don't have a lot of threads holding the force, which is why you need a bolt fully seated. It's an odd thread size too that you can't just find in the store. Has to be special ordered, hence the special tool. Some autoparts stores have crank balancer puller/installer tools that you can rent. I would get one of those. It has the correct bolt, along with a drive nut and the special thrust bearing to make it turn smooth. Might still need a piece of pipe to drive, but it will do the trick.

Originally Posted by locoman99

is it enough of an upgrade to go through the trouble...i havent really heard of a weakness issue or failure issues with later ones..am i missing something? I have not really looked into it alot to be honest. So what makes a 2000 up chain better in the real world (n/a engine) than later sets? Some times the "in theory" upgrades are the biggest waste of time and money.

Yes, if you are running a high lift cam and stiffer valves springs, it's a good upgrade. They place a lot more load on the chain. The 2000 and up chain and gears where made thinner for less internal friction and weight, probably for fuel mileage purposes. The chain stretches out more easily though with the extra load and could break. At least one person has destroyed their engine from running a big cam and a higher red line with the late model timing set. His chain jumped off the gears at a 6500rpm shift and he broke a bunch of pistons and valves. The '99 and earlier timing set is thicker and stronger. It's not a huge improvement, but it's the best insurance available since there currently aren't any of the double roller timing sets from TCE available and they take more work to install. You have to machine spots on the inside of the front cover and the front of the block for it to fit.

[chris_gt_74]

Anyone have a part number for this installer tool that works with our LA1? Or knows the exact thread size and pitch of the bolt?

[AaronGTR]

There is a GM part number for the installer, but the only place that will have one is a GM dealership and they won't rent it out to you. The crank pulley installer is a universal tool that comes in a kit that you can rent at some places, and it doesn't have a part number. There are probably a couple different brands. I don't remember who made the one I rented from advance auto. I used to know what the thread for the crank was too but forgot. It was on the inside of the tool kit next to the threaded adapter that fit my crank.