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[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

To answer the first question, no I'm not selling anything. I offered this up as educational material for whatever it's worth, not to start a flame war. I'm continually disappointed at how certain topics carry a negative stigma and by extension somehow I carry a negative stigma, even though you've got nothing to judge me or the topic on other than your own longstanding personal (or rather collective) bias.

If you want to take issue with a particular fact or argument, don't you think it'd be more constructive and less hostile to simply discuss it? Sorry but I don't accept that you know everything just because you've been members longer than I have. I have my suspicions as well that nobody's bothered to read far enough into the article to get to the important stuff because all the crap and scams you're referring to are discussed first.

I read through all those so called articles. There's nothing there I haven't read before on this site or other places. Some of it is good material. Some of it is complete garbage, or at best pure speculation with no scientific evidence to support it.



As for the topic of electric supercharging... most electric superchargers out that are affordable and actually easy enough for an inexperienced person to install are nothing but scams and won't make any power. Anything larger or more complicated than that, such as what you posted with a specific motor hooked to a blower and multiple auxiliary batteries and such, is too large/expensive/complicated to be practical.

It's the same reason it's taken OEM manufacturers decades to come up with hybrid cars that actually are worth anything. They had to develop and test the technology until they saw an actual gain from it. You have to overcome the cost of the fuel spent carrying around an extra motor and batteries and recharging them.


The same would apply to a massive electric supercharger such as you are suggesting. The motor and batteries add weight and take up space in the car which makes the car less practical and useful as transportation. You have to design the system to move enough air to make more power... along with the fuel and tuning necessary to make it operate safely... and you are still limited by the batteries capacity. You either need special batteries such as li/ion like hybrids use, or a lot of regular batteries (meaning more weight), to have enough run time for the system to be useful. Then you have to have a way to recharge them from the car, which would require a bigger alternator and more draw on the engine which = parasitic loss just like any other form of boost, or you'd have to wait to recharge them with a power cord when the car is stopped which isn't practical or useful.


The reason people keep using superchargers/turbochargers is because they actually take up less space and add less weight than your silly electric supercharger, and are more efficient in the end after you add up all the advantages and drawbacks. They are proven technologies that work. Not pipe dreams. Could an electric supercharger eventually work and be efficient? Probably... but it would take a lot of time, money, engineering, and testing to make it so. Something the average person doesn't have the resources or education for.



So in other words... take your silly electric supercharger nonsense and GTFO. When you are a noob and come on a forum and start posting links to BS acting like you are going to educate all us poor stupid grand am modders it's bound to rub people the wrong way. That's what your posts have come off like.

[Cam2Fast]

Two things.

1- As with just about any mod that people claim increases performance on a GA/N-body, you're going to need more proof/examples of it working. You can't give a bunch of numbers on why it SHOULD work and expect people to seriously consider it as an option. Even companies that come out with new headers generally have to have some installed on a car and dyno-run (with a video) before it can be expected to sell in the community. If you are such a believer in this product, why don't you have one?

2- You state that you posted this as a "general guide" for beginners... how does a $4,000 product that would require TONS of custom fabrication/tuning fall in to this category? Even the most expensive Grand Am on here is only worth about $10,000. You can do turbo builds for cheaper than this electric supercharger. And this electric supercharger is only good for 15 seconds of boost before it's completely spent.....

You have to understand why people would scoff at what you posted. The links contain information that is very general (different engines respond to mods differently), the author has no credentials/proof (although, looks like he wrote another article on "how to make money on the internet"), and every page on there has ads to cheap eBay crap (funny, the page on electric superchargers has links to electric superchargers on eBay...).

Look at it from someone else's point of you. It certainly appears like you're trying to push a product, and if you are.... well, then you should really re-think how you're doing it.

You have some valid points and I can appreciate that there will be skepticism. I'm asking you to believe me when I say I'm not trying to sell anything. I can only ask people to believe, not convince them. It may be tempting to focus on details that look conspicuous but at the end of the day you still have a bunch of content that speaks only about cars, not money.

The general nature of the content is deliberate in that it is geared towards introducing a reader to various mods, concepts and technologies without overwhelming. It is a study "in breadth".

As for the electric supercharger, I disagree a little in the sense that this is not an overly expensive product. It ranges from about 2-3.5 grand. The RSM supercharger I've seen on PFYC was at the upper end of that range. The electric system is no more complex than any regular super. In fact it's less complex. Sure you have to do some wiring but that's pretty easy. There's no custom fabrication or any of that. All the custom work to mate the electric and mechanical sub-assemblies is done for you. It truly is a "bolt-on" in that sense. A beginner could install one.

There is a dyno in the article but not a video so yeah... you may want more convincing before accepting the product. The way I prefer to go about it is to NOT think about the product at all. Think about the inputs and the outputs. Look at the math. Does it make sense? Could the numbers be real or is it BS? If you solve all of the energy equations using a proper blower and a 4-battery powerplant, you see that yes, at least on paper, there are some HEALTHY gains to be had, well into the +30% regime. Proving that a given product can achieve this requires proof that I can't yet provide although I'm eventually going to buy one for myself. However, looking at the hardware alone, you can make some speculative decisions about how sound the concept is. A turbo doesn't care what drives it. It's a very very simple design. It's just a housing that relies on principles of fluid dynamics to compress air. Drive it with whatever you want... a belt, a turbine, an electric winch motor? It doesn't matter in the slightest. If you trust other blowers on the market, there's no reason not to trust the exact same product with a battery on it. You may look at the electric sub-assembly and ask yourself whether it can provide enough power but if you believe the specifications of the motor and the batteries, it seems perfectly capable of doing anything a regular super/turbo can do.


@Aaron

I'm not the one making you look like a "poor stupid grand am modder". You are. You're degrading the entire forum actually. I'm treating everyone here like they're equals (except for the people who clearly demonstrate themselves otherwise). Again, there's zero need for this sort of hostility you're throwing at me. Totally unprofessional. I don't "own" any of this stuff and I'm not selling or pushing anything. I'm trying to establish a technology as being viable.

Your broadly sweeping statements about the ES are not accurate. The system weighs approximately as much as a regular super. It's approximately the same price or less and it's not any more complicated than installing a regular super. You DON'T have parasitic losses from the alternator... if you read the article properly, you'd have seen that. The alternator MAY only be used to recharge the unit when you're not using it, if you want it to. The extra weight has a negligible impact on mileage but guess what? It has zero parasitic losses when you're not using it but a regular super DOES. Therefore you get BETTER mileage using an ES than you do with a normal super. The images show that it is not massive at all. It can fit quite nicely in many engine bays and the size depends on the air demands and is limited more by the blower than the winch motor... have a look for yourself.

The bottom line is that the currently available product(s) designed to be electric solutions (not the cheapo ebay ones) are as good or better than regular supers in many ways. They are not superior in all ways, which is why there are still pros and cons... but they're perfectly feasible alternatives. You have to be open-minded enough to look at everything and not be instantly dismissive. Otherwise why have a car forum?

[1995quad4se]

Originally Posted by AleroB888

Did you guys even read the articles he wrote?

Seems like a lot of undue flaming for not hearing the man out.

I sort of have to agree. I see both sides of the issue. He sounds like he knows what he is doing on some things but even electric superchargers are new to him.

[AaronGTR]

Whatever man. You ignored half of what I said about an electrical system being practical. With a normal supercharger or turbocharger being driven off the engine, it is available 100% of the time, as long as there is gas in the tank and the engine is running. If the engine works, the boost works too. There is no waiting to recharge the batteries. No extra weight to carry besides the weight of the blower which the electrical blower needs too. An electrically driven system is not practical. Heck, even nitrous would be a better power adder than that. A nitrous bottle will run out eventually just like a battery, but it adds less weight and takes up less space.

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

You think I'm an illiterate moron? I'm an automotive engineer son. I also work at GM Powertrain and have tuned control modules for 7 years. I'm pretty sure I could teach you a thing or two so don't talk down to me. Try to be humble in life instead of being a ****y ass. You never know when you might learn something new.

Claims to be engineer.... claims to work for GM powertrain....

can't address basic fundamental engineering flaws inherent in an electrical supercharger.


If you are going to make those kinds of claims, you better be willing to provide some kind of proof, because most people are going to call BS. I never claim to be an engineer or anything like that. I'm just a guy that has been around the car scene long enough and read enough on these topics to spot something fishy when I see it.


/THREAD.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Originally Posted by 1995quad4se

I sort of have to agree. I see both sides of the issue. He sounds like he knows what he is doing on some things but even electric superchargers are new to him.

I skimmed through them. It's generic as hell, most of the info given has been said and done here and stickied for noobs to find and read.

The electric supercharger link, I didn't even get halfway before I couldn't stop laughing and closed the window. Even more ironic, the "article" had at least four eBay ads for "cheap electric superchargers".

[1995quad4se]

I didn't read it word for word but I took in most of it and while it does seem to drag on and on he does seem to know what he is talking about, sort of.

I couldn't help but notice the ebay ads as well and until the OP proves it on his own GA with dyno videos, etc i'm still on the non-believer side of things. Proof or GTFO

[Cam2Fast]

The practicality of carrying around a system that isn't always readily available is a valid concern and I freely agree with you on that. Say it's a con. Doesn't make it worthless. It means it's not perfect. I also think that a 700 dollar cat back exhaust that nets you 10 hp is not perfect but because it's well established technology, everybody looks the other way. Again, it's a trade-off of pros and cons and what you're looking for. If you don't want to carry an electric blower around that will only work for 60 seconds per 15 minutes, don't buy one. I personally might because my criteria are different than yours. Again, it's about personal preference.

Like you, I don't make a habit of shooting my mouth off but unlike you I've been under fire since I joined simply because I discussed a touchy topic and you guys are calling me all sorts of things and questioning my ability to speak intelligibly on automotive topics. Who's going to fight on my side? I've got to do it unfortunately.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Do what? Do you even own and have installed on your Grand Am, an "electric supercharger"? It's asinine to see you defend to the death such an obvious waste of time, money and effort.

[Cam2Fast]

I'll re-iterate one more time that I only wish to discuss the technology itself and only with rational, open-minded people. Membership is not predicated on being able to prove something. I've every right to be here to discuss topics that are of interest to a subset of the forum members. If you don't like it, you leave. You stay because it's entertainment for you. Don't think I don't understand what keeps you here.

[TruGreenGAGT]

too much reading. my only thing is this....

if these electric superchargers are really that cheap and effective....then why is it not a factory installed option from the major auto manufactures??

why because of the fact its been stated and tested numerous times.....they're crap and don't do anything

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

@Aaron

I'm not the one making you look like a "poor stupid grand am modder". You are. You're degrading the entire forum actually. I'm treating everyone here like they're equals (except for the people who clearly demonstrate themselves otherwise). Again, there's zero need for this sort of hostility you're throwing at me. Totally unprofessional. I don't "own" any of this stuff and I'm not selling or pushing anything. I'm trying to establish a technology as being viable.

Your broadly sweeping statements about the ES are not accurate. The system weighs approximately as much as a regular super. It's approximately the same price or less and it's not any more complicated than installing a regular super. You DON'T have parasitic losses from the alternator... if you read the article properly, you'd have seen that. The alternator MAY only be used to recharge the unit when you're not using it, if you want it to. The extra weight has a negligible impact on mileage but guess what? It has zero parasitic losses when you're not using it but a regular super DOES. Therefore you get BETTER mileage using an ES than you do with a normal super. The images show that it is not massive at all. It can fit quite nicely in many engine bays and the size depends on the air demands and is limited more by the blower than the winch motor... have a look for yourself.

The bottom line is that the currently available product(s) designed to be electric solutions (not the cheapo ebay ones) are as good or better than regular supers in many ways. They are not superior in all ways, which is why there are still pros and cons... but they're perfectly feasible alternatives. You have to be open-minded enough to look at everything and not be instantly dismissive. Otherwise why have a car forum?

Ok, now I'm calling complete BS.


There is no way you are a real engineer. You don't even know how much a f*cking battery weighs, or a real supercharger for that matter.



A regular automotive battery weighs 30-35 lbs depending on model. You need what, four of them to power this system? Plus the electric motor whatever that weighs (it won't be light, that's for sure). My entire magnacharger S/C setup weighs 35lbs by itself... all together! And it never needs recharging.


Tell me again about being accurate and making people look stupid...

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by TruGreenGAGT

too much reading. my only thing is this....

if these electric superchargers are really that cheap and effective....then why is it not a factory installed option from the major auto manufactures??

why because of the fact its been stated and tested numerous times.....they're crap and don't do anything

[Cam2Fast]

As an employee, I think I'm a bit more qualified to speak to that point than you are. There are also plenty of batteries out there that are not "typical" and weight much less. Stop with the misinformation already.

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

Ok, now I'm calling complete BS.


There is no way you are a real engineer. You don't even know how much a f*cking battery weighs, or a real supercharger for that matter.



A regular automotive battery weighs 30-35 lbs depending on model. You need what, four of them to power this system? Plus the electric motor whatever that weighs (it won't be light, that's for sure). My entire magnacharger S/C setup weighs 35lbs by itself... all together! And it never needs recharging.


Tell me again about being accurate and making people look stupid...

EDIT: btw, your comments on parasitic losses are not correct either! Alternators DO create parasitic loss on the engine, and increasing the charging load on them increases drag on the engine. And weight increase on the car not only affects mileage, but also handling, acceleration, and every other performance factor. Yes, belt driven superchargers have a certain amount of parasitic loss also, and yes there is a little bit even when it's not under boost. It's not much though. Ever heard of a bypass valve? My car gets about the same highway mileage with the blower as it did before. And while my specific blower is a gen4 eaton and isn't the best/newest design, the newest TVS blowers being used (by OEM's I might add) are in the same efficiency range as turbochargers.

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

As an employee, I think I'm a bit more qualified to speak to that point than you are. There are also plenty of batteries out there that are not "typical" and weight much less. Stop with the misinformation already.

Look who's talking. Employee of who? Ebay?



yeah, there are plenty of lighter weight batteries out there.... and they are more expensive and not readily available.


Don't talk to me about "misinformation".

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

As an employee, I think I'm a bit more qualified to speak to that point than you are. There are also plenty of batteries out there that are not "typical" and weight much less. Stop with the misinformation already.

>stop with misinformation
>says electric superchargers work

You spew all sorts of garbage and you don't even have one on your own car, or even have any sorts of dyno results.

[1995quad4se]

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

I personally might because my criteria are different than yours. Again, it's about personal preference.

Then do it. Make it work. Gain mad powah. Come back here and laugh in our face. Please.

[Cam2Fast]

Don't like it? Stop posting. When you and the others stop posting, only the interested and mature members will remain, which is better for everyone and you can go back to your all important role as uber-mechanic, of solving the world's car problems on other threads.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

Don't like it? Stop posting. When you and the others stop posting, only the interested and mature members will remain, which is better for everyone and you can go back to your all important role as uber-mechanic, of solving the world's car problems on other threads.

Here's the kicker, we all know you're full of shit. You keep yapping about a product you don't even own or have experience with.

Don't post? You should heed your own advice.

[Cam2Fast]

As the OP I have a reason to be here. You, with no vested interest in this topic are just here for entertainment and to harass. Leave and take your collaborators with you.