Sail panel, or coaxial door pods?

[MIAaron]

Okay, I know GM does engineer the stock locations for optimum sound. I'm looking for experience here, not general info. I know typically a single point sourse for the speakers is optimal, but in the real world of car audio everything changes. From experience, would I be better mounting my tweeters coaxially with the woofers in the door, or using the stock tweeter locations in the sail panel?

FYI: After break-in I'm going to measure the T/S parameters of whatever driver I buy to optimize the enclosure volume in the door. I will be tuning the enclosures to the speakers...no generic info here.

[GregFarz78]

Originally posted by MIAaron
Okay, I know GM does engineer the stock locations for optimum sound.

LOL that funny

Sail panels are a bad location for tweeters recomendation is within 8" of the woofer. Get some kick panels for optimum sound.

[MagiLLa]

^^^ Werd. I was gonna suggest making or buying kicks.

[MattBatt]

Originally posted by MIAaron
Okay, I know GM does engineer the stock locations for optimum sound.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA that's a laugh. There are somethings that GM engineers spend a lot of time finding the right place for But Speakers arent one of them.
I personally didn't like my tweets in the sail Cause they blare in my ears. I moved mine to the dash. There is a plastic bolt cover that comes out and some tweets fit right in check out my site for pics www.geocites.com/matt_batt1 . It probabbly isn't the most Ideal location and Kick pannels probabbly sound better but I got Big legs that block sound and I need all the feets room I can have.

[MIAaron]

FYI, GM does put a bit of effort into the speaker placement design. One example: On the GMT-800(full size truck) we had a design review for the hinge placement. Someone mentioned moving the speakers and the head audio guy threw a fit. On the gmx-130(current grand am) we tried to get them to move the rear speakers to make more room for a reworked torsion bar(bars that make the trunk raise) set-up in the trunk. Well, no go. They determined a trunk not opening all the way wasn't as important as the stereo. GM does more than you guys give them credit for.

Thanks Matt! I know a lot about audio, was just looking for some good ol experience. Nice spy on the dash for the tweets. I am going to take some in-car response measurments in the car when finished, i'll give that location a shot to.

[MagiLLa]

Suggest To GM to put the tweets near the speakers..... And make our cars come stock w/ Focal Utopia fronts and tweets.... Scrap the 6x9's (or make optional, if you don't want it in car, it's 200$ off car) and leave the trunk empty for our pleasure...That's how buying a car should be done.. Tell them I sent you.

[MIAaron]

But if GM does all the work, where's the fun? Not to mention you want utopia's and I want Sea's Lotus.

[GregFarz78]

On a side note I saw the sunfire gtx (I think thats the model) the concept one the placement of the tweeters was right near the speaker they built a pod for it dont have any pics but it looked sweet. Any SQ guy will tell you place them close to the midbass.

[MIAaron]

Ya I know it's best to keep them close, I've done it that way in all my other vehicles. This time I'm gonna play around and test with my ears more. I will be taking respose plots with the laptop the whole time. But this is mainly imaging so it doesn't mean a lot.

[AmIGrand]

I gave up on getting real imaging in this car a long time ago, . Kind like, if it ain't perfect anyway, why bother? Anyway, I don't mind the sail panel location, they sound more than OK there. Personaly, I'd rather have them there than in the dash! As for kicks, I keep thinking about it, but with the shape of the doors and dash in the 96 and newer GA's (even worse in the '99+), I dunno if it'd do all that well, really.

Good to know there is a "head stereo guy" at GM, and that his opinion counts! Where do I apply? I assume there's more than one guy in that department.... And I LOVE the fact that I have those funky curling springs in my trunk and not torsion bars - the only possible improvememnt would be a Honda style gas shock thingy. As it is, I can make my custom box hang from under the rear deck with no problem, and my buddies box fits in his '97 trunk without scraping any little bar things, and I have the option of using freeair woofers without bottoming out.... Never use torsion bars!!

[Vintalage]

I think that's the worst place to put a tweeter, where the woofer is placed. The woofer is mounted low and putting a tweeter there would be bad IMO. The high notes would be blocked by a person's leg. My stepmom bought an '03 Navigator and every speaker except the subwoofer (of course) were coaxials. Coaxials in the front doors, coaxials in the rear doors. Everytime someone moved their leg in front of the speaker, the sound became muffled. All you heard was the mid-range out of the speaker until the person moved their leg. Then the highs came back. Not at all a good place to mount a tweeter. This is why most manufactuers put the tweeters on the sail panels.

[MIAaron]

I'm not after perfect imaging, just damn good. As for the pods, I'm am going to make some work without modifying the stock trim panel. My request for the part data for the door shell and trim panel is going into GM next week. I'm going to design them 3d on the computer to find out how much room can actually be squeezed out of the 99+ doors. I can't do it on the pre 99 ga's cuz the part data is in CGS, and didn't survive y2k. Looks like I'm going to be playing with the tweeter placement for a few weekends. Thanks for the info guys.

And as far as the torsion bars, ya they suck. Only cadillac is going to be getting them anymore. We had to rework the design in the 99+ and half the cars that come out STILL don't have a trunk that opens all the way. My 87 cav had the shock for opening the trunk, but they wore out pretty fast. Most GM cars just won't have auto opening trunks anymore. Funny how GM can't get it to work well so they just give up. wtf

And ya the audio people have a big say in things. Anyone to do with ergo and interior has final say so over the the engineering side.

[Vintalage]

Gm had auto open trunks??? I thought BMW was the first with the all-new 7 series? I gather you work for Gm? Do you give Gm opinions on what would be better? What Gm needs to do with the sound in the rear is drop the 6x9s all together and put speakers in the rear doors. Place mid-bass driver at the bottom of the rear door and put a tweeter around the area where the door handle is. Then place a Sub on the rear shelf. Or better yet, place a sub in the trunk near the wheel well. But some trunk space would be comprimised and I don't think GM would like that idea.

[MIAaron]

See, you don't realize that when you hit your trunk release button, your trunk should open all the way up. Mine does luckily, but many don't.

And no I don't work for GM direct, but I do work on a lot of GM stuff. My job is to design the machines that make the vehicles. I've recently swithced over to the paint side due to lack of vehicle programs coming out of the big three, but I still have many connections.

[AmIGrand]

Actually, I kinda like it that my remote trunk release doesn't open all the way. The trunk pops, and sits about 6" up. All it takes is a small tap from underneath to swing up the rest of the way. In my '99 GT sedan, it opened al the way - and kinda violently . I always felt like something was gonna bend or break, the way it slammed against the stoppers. Same with all my freinds imports, and my wifes Focus. Most of them will stand near the car to remote release, and put a hand in the way to slow the trunk lids release!

[MattBatt]

You guys know that Eclipse (and others like CDT crossfire etc.) make top of the line component that have the tweet attatched to the main speaker.

[Vintalage]

I just think putting a tweeter so low with the woofer would make things worse.

[MattBatt]

The Ideal setup would be to have the tweets mids and subs right next to each other and equal distance from your ears like the Alpine Honda (:cringe Civic.
Both these pics suck and the photographer should be shot (since it wasn't me) for more pics check it out at www.alpine1.com

BTW for all you guys that poo poo mixing woofer sizes and box types those are 12 in the front in a sealed box and 15's on the sides that port into the drivers seat and 12 in the back facing the gawking crowd.

[MagiLLa]

Originally posted by MattBatt
The Ideal setup would be to have the tweets mids and subs right next to each other

ehhhh... why? imaging says mids highs up front and lows from the rear.... You may wanna rearrange that statement

[MIAaron]

For ideal imaging you want the speakers clustered together, not away from each other. Car's are the only place this happens cuz most cars can't fit sub's in the front.