GTO A Gas Guzzler?

Vintalage · 03-01-2004, 09:51 AM

G Is for Guzzler, T Is for Tax, O Is for Oops

The new Pontiac GTO has many claims to fame. It went from concept car to showroom model in only 18 months, demonstrating General Motors' new prowess in product development.

It is fast, racing from a stop to 60 m.p.h. in just 5.3 seconds. It is nimble, taking curves at speeds that the original GTO of the 1960's couldn't have begun to handle.

And, surprisingly, it is a gas guzzler, the only mass-produced car with an American nameplate on the government's list.

To be sure, only GTO's with a four-speed automatic transmission are subject to the federal gas-guzzler tax. And with an economy rating of 16 miles per gallon in town and 21 on the highway, even that car does much better than many pickups and sport utility vehicles.

But because the GTO is a passenger car, the rating is low enough to require buyers to pay a $1,000 guzzler tax. Trucks, including S.U.V.'s, are exempt.

Still, the 350-horsepower GTO, which is built in Australia with the body of the Holden Monaro coupe and a Corvette engine (from Canada), contravenes a longtime General Motors policy of not selling gas guzzlers to the general public.

G.M. could have avoided the penalty by selling GTO's only with a six-speed manual transmission; that version, with a mileage rating of 17/29 m.p.g., is not subject to the tax. Indeed, this is the approach the company took with another high-performance car, the new Cadillac CTS-V sedan, which comes only with a six-speed manual. Automatics generally get lower mileage than manuals.

Enthusiasts may wonder why a Cadillac comes without an automatic while the GTO, from G.M.'s traditional performance division, has one as standard equipment. The GTO's manual is an option.

The automatic GTO's guzzler status is not widely known, partly because G.M. did not disclose that information at the car's introduction to the press. Although the GTO has been on sale for two months, Pontiac's media Web site still said Friday that the car's mileage was "to be determined."

At $33,000, the GTO is the lowest-priced 2004 model penalized for fuel consumption.

Only a few Detroit names show up on the list. The Dodge Viper is one, but Chrysler sold only 2,103 Vipers in 2003; G.M. plans to import about 18,000 GTO's annually.

Cadillac's special-purpose funeral coach and hearse also make the list, but they are not bought by the general population, and generally make only short trips to their occupants' final destinations.

G.M. has gone to considerable effort to avoid the guzzler stigma, developing technologies like variable displacement engines and a manual transmission that forced drivers of Corvettes, Camaros and Firebirds to skip gears in the interest of economy - irritating many in the process. In its 2002 annual report, G.M. pointed to its investments in hydrogen fuel cells and went on to say, "However, we're not putting off actions that we can take now to lower fuel consumption."

G.M., in fact, does make several large cars with mileage ratings that are among the best in their classes.

G.M. officials, both in engineering and public relations, say the company had been operating under a clear directive, if not quite an iron-clad policy, to avoid making automobiles that would be subject to the guzzler tax. G.M. has not sold such a car since the low-production Cadillac Allanté roadster of 1993.

The results of this self-imposed policy are impressive: the Chevrolet Corvette, whose base engine is the same LS1 V-8 that is found under the GTO's hood (but a car that is 500 pounds lighter), returns 18/25 m.p.g. when equipped with an automatic. And like the GTO, the Corvette is no slouch in the performance department; its top speed is 176 m.p.h., Chevrolet says. No Corvette has ever been classified as a gas guzzler.

Of course, the goal of good gas mileage is not entirely a matter of customer appeal or soothing the corporate conscience: the government can impose large fines if an automaker's corporate average fuel economy does not meet federal standards.

G.M. does not have to worry that the GTO is weighing down its average for domestic vehicles, since the Australian-built GTO is classified as an import. G.M.'s import average gets a lift from gas sippers like the Chevrolet Aveo, a Korean-built subcompact, and efficient four-cylinder Saabs.

G.M. decided to make the GTO even if it was a guzzler because of what it saw as an urgent need to revive Pontiac's image. Thus, the car was not delayed while technology was developed that would have improved its mileage, like a more efficient six-speed automatic transmission. Pontiac also resisted makeshift solutions, like producing a front-drive GTO with a V-6 engine.

"We weren't going to compromise," said Jim Hopson, a Pontiac spokesman. "We wanted to put a car out there worthy of the name GTO."

Bringing the guzzler penalty to a lower price class may not stir protests. John DeCicco, a senior fellow at the Environmental Defense advocacy group, said: "People are going to look at the window sticker and get annoyed, but not at Pontiac. They'll be mad at the federal government and its rules."

About half of GTO buyers have chosen the automatic transmission. Considering the poor mileage of so many trucks, the addition of 9,000 guzzlers to American roads will not have much effect on oil imports.

-NORMAN MAYERSOHN

Mike3800 · 03-01-2004, 01:55 PM

K Where's the Cliff Notes?

If it's that the GTO uses alot of gas... then.. really it's pretty efficient for having near 350HP and.. how many vehicles with at least 350HP get that kind of mileage anyway?

What idiot would buy a GTO and think... "this baby's gonna sip fuel"

Vintalage · 03-01-2004, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike3800
What idiot would buy a GTO and think... "this baby's gonna sip fuel"

Ummm...me!!?? I just said those exact words the other day!

j/k LOL!!!

But it seems that the Corvette LS1 with it's 350hp and even the Z06 with it's 405hp gets better MPG than the GTO. Woah, the CTS-V is worse with 16 and it has 400hp. Damn!!!

VTECSiGAH8R · 03-01-2004, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vintalage
Ummm...me!!?? I just said those exact words the other day!

j/k LOL!!!

But it seems that the Corvette LS1 with it's 350hp and even the Z06 with it's 405hp gets better MPG than the GTO. Woah, the CTS-V is worse with 16 and it has 400hp. Damn!!!

Divide your speed range into 6 gears including a steep 6th gear vs. dividing the range into 4 gears and holy crap, what a surprise, the 6 gear divided car gets better mileage!! What a concept!

j/k man.

peeps · 03-01-2004, 06:26 PM

corvette is lighter than the GTO.

digitalballz · 03-01-2004, 07:18 PM

I went to test drive the new gto the other day, and the sales guy was talking me out of buying one. He's telling me that GM "missed the mark on this one" (duh). anyway i couldnt drive it cuz they said it was sold. Who needs one anyway.

VTECSiGAH8R · 03-01-2004, 09:29 PM

Jeeze, great salesman.

Panacea · 03-02-2004, 09:00 AM

My dads '94 corvette got 28mpg on highway diving...

I think it's a joke that Trucks and SUV's are exempt... that is bullcrap!

Oh well, if you're stupid enough to buy a GTO with an auto, then you definately deserve to pay the guzzlers tax!

Mike3800 · 03-02-2004, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by VTECSiGAH8R
Jeeze, great salesman.

He is... he's honest. Had they of built their own **** it might have been different.

Panacea · 03-02-2004, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike3800
He is... he's honest. Had they of built their own **** it might have been different.

Yeah, you'd have a POS... I'd rather have the holden any day. At least I know it won't break down on me nearly as much as the rest of the GM fleet.

Who cares, it's an auto. The thing is auto's were able to get better gas mileage for a while, now it seems like manuals are able to get better mileage, once again. I'm sure when 6-speed auto's come out they'll get better mileage....

Mike3800 · 03-02-2004, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Panacea
Yeah, you'd have a POS... I'd rather have the holden any day. At least I know it won't break down on me nearly as much as the rest of the GM fleet.

Oh Bull****.. it's a ****ing LS1 V8 with a GM tranny behind it. Holden is owned by GM... it's just assembled and designed down there so your theory of reliability being better is full of holes since it's still a GM car with GM designed engine, transmision and everything mechanical.

That engine and transmissions are PROVEN to be reliable.

It would have been FASTER and more efficient had it of been designed here. Proof? Corvette and F body.

Panacea · 03-02-2004, 10:05 AM

I agree that the engine transmission are very reliable, it's the rest of the car I doubt.

As a whole the quality of a holden (all around interior and exterior) is much better than that of it's GM "counterpart"

thehemi · 03-02-2004, 12:46 PM

I need to go see a GTO in person.
From the pics, it looks super clean.

VTECSiGAH8R · 03-02-2004, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike3800
Oh Bull****.. it's a ****ing LS1 V8 with a GM tranny behind it. Holden is owned by GM... it's just assembled and designed down there so your theory of reliability being better is full of holes since it's still a GM car with GM designed engine, transmision and everything mechanical.

That engine and transmissions are PROVEN to be reliable.

It would have been FASTER and more efficient had it of been designed here. Proof? Corvette and F body.

If you've read anything at all about Holdens you'd read that their design and assembly of vehicles is very high quality, moreso than most would rate an American built GMs, inclduing the Vette and F-Body. Mainly the F-body, but even the Vette has a shoddy looking interior and materials (the C5 and back) and fit and finish for the price. The F-Body is much worse in those cetgories for the price. But those are pure performance cars at a great price so it's expected. BTW, most people consider F-Bodies boats too, maybe more than the heavier and roomier GTOs even.

Mike3800 · 03-02-2004, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by VTECSiGAH8R
If you've read anything at all about Holdens you'd read that their design and assembly of vehicles is very high quality, moreso than most would rate an American built GMs, inclduing the Vette and F-Body. Mainly the F-body, but even the Vette has a shoddy looking interior and materials (the C5 and back) and fit and finish for the price. The F-Body is much worse in those cetgories for the price. But those are pure performance cars at a great price so it's expected. BTW, most people consider F-Bodies boats too, maybe more than the heavier and roomier GTOs even.

No offense but....

whoopdee frickin doo.

It sill would have been faster and more efficient if it was made here (my main point), the quality difference isn't enough to be siginificant especially considering the engine and transmissions are the same as they would be here.

VTECSiGAH8R · 03-02-2004, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike3800
No offense but....

whoopdee frickin doo.

It sill would have been faster and more efficient if it was made here (my main point), the quality difference isn't enough to be siginificant especially considering the engine and transmissions are the same as they would be here.

Good point Mike,

, you win again

.

Mike3800 · 03-03-2004, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by VTECSiGAH8R
Good point Mike, , you win again .

There is no "win" here unless you are uptite because you have something stuck up your butt.

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean you should act like an ass.

Again, I don't think the difference in quality is very significant, had it of been made here it probbably would have been alot lighter and thus... faster and more efficient.

GTspeed · 03-03-2004, 09:06 AM

the problem is they are still using a 4-speed auto. if they put a 5 or 6-speed auto into the thing, they wouldnt have this problem, and then i'd consider buying one later on. i just prefer autos over manuals.

Mike3800 · 03-03-2004, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GTspeed
i just prefer autos over manuals.

I do as well when it has a V8 and it's luxury oriented. But that 4 speed auto isn't bad. Have you drivien a Z28 or Trans Am with one of those? It goes pretty good.

I agree with you they SHOULD have put the 5 speed auto in it. After all they do charge an arm and a leg for the car.

GTspeed · 03-03-2004, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike3800
I do as well when it has a V8 and it's luxury oriented. But that 4 speed auto isn't bad. Have you drivien a Z28 or Trans Am with one of those? It goes pretty good.

I agree with you they SHOULD have put the 5 speed auto in it. After all they do charge an arm and a leg for the car.

oh i wasnt implying the 4-speed auto is bad, i've never driven a 4speed auto z28, but rode in one while my boss drove. pretty sweet!

i just think a 5 or 6-speed would help the gas milage pretty good

03-01-2004, 09:51 AM	#1
Vintalage Hey paisanos! Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Maryland Age: 38 Posts: 5,490 Vehicle: 2002 Grand Am GT1	GTO A Gas Guzzler? G Is for Guzzler, T Is for Tax, O Is for Oops The new Pontiac GTO has many claims to fame. It went from concept car to showroom model in only 18 months, demonstrating General Motors' new prowess in product development. It is fast, racing from a stop to 60 m.p.h. in just 5.3 seconds. It is nimble, taking curves at speeds that the original GTO of the 1960's couldn't have begun to handle. And, surprisingly, it is a gas guzzler, the only mass-produced car with an American nameplate on the government's list. To be sure, only GTO's with a four-speed automatic transmission are subject to the federal gas-guzzler tax. And with an economy rating of 16 miles per gallon in town and 21 on the highway, even that car does much better than many pickups and sport utility vehicles. But because the GTO is a passenger car, the rating is low enough to require buyers to pay a $1,000 guzzler tax. Trucks, including S.U.V.'s, are exempt. Still, the 350-horsepower GTO, which is built in Australia with the body of the Holden Monaro coupe and a Corvette engine (from Canada), contravenes a longtime General Motors policy of not selling gas guzzlers to the general public. G.M. could have avoided the penalty by selling GTO's only with a six-speed manual transmission; that version, with a mileage rating of 17/29 m.p.g., is not subject to the tax. Indeed, this is the approach the company took with another high-performance car, the new Cadillac CTS-V sedan, which comes only with a six-speed manual. Automatics generally get lower mileage than manuals. Enthusiasts may wonder why a Cadillac comes without an automatic while the GTO, from G.M.'s traditional performance division, has one as standard equipment. The GTO's manual is an option. The automatic GTO's guzzler status is not widely known, partly because G.M. did not disclose that information at the car's introduction to the press. Although the GTO has been on sale for two months, Pontiac's media Web site still said Friday that the car's mileage was "to be determined." At $33,000, the GTO is the lowest-priced 2004 model penalized for fuel consumption. Only a few Detroit names show up on the list. The Dodge Viper is one, but Chrysler sold only 2,103 Vipers in 2003; G.M. plans to import about 18,000 GTO's annually. Cadillac's special-purpose funeral coach and hearse also make the list, but they are not bought by the general population, and generally make only short trips to their occupants' final destinations. G.M. has gone to considerable effort to avoid the guzzler stigma, developing technologies like variable displacement engines and a manual transmission that forced drivers of Corvettes, Camaros and Firebirds to skip gears in the interest of economy - irritating many in the process. In its 2002 annual report, G.M. pointed to its investments in hydrogen fuel cells and went on to say, "However, we're not putting off actions that we can take now to lower fuel consumption." G.M., in fact, does make several large cars with mileage ratings that are among the best in their classes. G.M. officials, both in engineering and public relations, say the company had been operating under a clear directive, if not quite an iron-clad policy, to avoid making automobiles that would be subject to the guzzler tax. G.M. has not sold such a car since the low-production Cadillac Allanté roadster of 1993. The results of this self-imposed policy are impressive: the Chevrolet Corvette, whose base engine is the same LS1 V-8 that is found under the GTO's hood (but a car that is 500 pounds lighter), returns 18/25 m.p.g. when equipped with an automatic. And like the GTO, the Corvette is no slouch in the performance department; its top speed is 176 m.p.h., Chevrolet says. No Corvette has ever been classified as a gas guzzler. Of course, the goal of good gas mileage is not entirely a matter of customer appeal or soothing the corporate conscience: the government can impose large fines if an automaker's corporate average fuel economy does not meet federal standards. G.M. does not have to worry that the GTO is weighing down its average for domestic vehicles, since the Australian-built GTO is classified as an import. G.M.'s import average gets a lift from gas sippers like the Chevrolet Aveo, a Korean-built subcompact, and efficient four-cylinder Saabs. G.M. decided to make the GTO even if it was a guzzler because of what it saw as an urgent need to revive Pontiac's image. Thus, the car was not delayed while technology was developed that would have improved its mileage, like a more efficient six-speed automatic transmission. Pontiac also resisted makeshift solutions, like producing a front-drive GTO with a V-6 engine. "We weren't going to compromise," said Jim Hopson, a Pontiac spokesman. "We wanted to put a car out there worthy of the name GTO." Bringing the guzzler penalty to a lower price class may not stir protests. John DeCicco, a senior fellow at the Environmental Defense advocacy group, said: "People are going to look at the window sticker and get annoyed, but not at Pontiac. They'll be mad at the federal government and its rules." About half of GTO buyers have chosen the automatic transmission. Considering the poor mileage of so many trucks, the addition of 9,000 guzzlers to American roads will not have much effect on oil imports. -NORMAN MAYERSOHN __________________ 2002 Grand Am GT1 Sedan - Black 7000K HID PICS [SOLD to Jscarano]

03-01-2004, 06:26 PM	#5
peeps OU Sucks! AKA: Philip Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denton (Dallas), TX Age: 43 Posts: 1,094 Vehicle: 2005 M6 Torrid Red GTO	corvette is lighter than the GTO. __________________ peeps' N-Body Registry philpeeps.com GAP '02 Pics \| GAP '03 Pics

03-01-2004, 07:18 PM	#6
digitalballz # 1846 AKA: Bobby Jr. Join Date: May 2003 Location: Malden, Ma. Age: 40 Posts: 1,479 Vehicle: 2002 WS6 CETA	I went to test drive the new gto the other day, and the sales guy was talking me out of buying one. He's telling me that GM "missed the mark on this one" (duh). anyway i couldnt drive it cuz they said it was sold. Who needs one anyway. __________________ I have dated a girl for her brains...........Big.............Huge........ BRAINS.

03-02-2004, 09:00 AM	#8
Panacea Mmmm Donuts. AKA: Macleod52 Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Rock Island, IL Age: 40 Posts: 3,160 Vehicle: '09 Malibu LTZ	My dads '94 corvette got 28mpg on highway diving... I think it's a joke that Trucks and SUV's are exempt... that is bullcrap! Oh well, if you're stupid enough to buy a GTO with an auto, then you definately deserve to pay the guzzlers tax! __________________ "Never argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience."

03-02-2004, 10:05 AM	#12
Panacea Mmmm Donuts. AKA: Macleod52 Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Rock Island, IL Age: 40 Posts: 3,160 Vehicle: '09 Malibu LTZ	I agree that the engine transmission are very reliable, it's the rest of the car I doubt. As a whole the quality of a holden (all around interior and exterior) is much better than that of it's GM "counterpart" __________________ "Never argue with idiots. They bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience."

03-01-2004, 01:55 PM	#2
Mike3800 GAGT - Junkie AKA: Michael Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Northglenn, CO USA Age: 49 Posts: 3,394 Vehicle: 2015 Chrysler 200S AWD	K Where's the Cliff Notes? If it's that the GTO uses alot of gas... then.. really it's pretty efficient for having near 350HP and.. how many vehicles with at least 350HP get that kind of mileage anyway? What idiot would buy a GTO and think... "this baby's gonna sip fuel"

03-01-2004, 09:29 PM	#7
VTECSiGAH8R GAGT - Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Miami, FL Age: 36 Posts: 1,346 Vehicle: 97 Honda Civic DX	Jeeze, great salesman.

03-02-2004, 12:46 PM	#13
thehemi GAGT - Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 196 Vehicle: 96 GA, 99 S10	I need to go see a GTO in person. From the pics, it looks super clean. __________________ Scott Moseman 96 GASE \| 04 GPGT \| 99 S10 http://www.Highflow.com/ http://www.TheHemi.com/

03-03-2004, 09:06 AM	#18
GTspeed GAGT - Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: slidell, la Age: 39 Posts: 283 Vehicle: 2001 Regal GS	the problem is they are still using a 4-speed auto. if they put a 5 or 6-speed auto into the thing, they wouldnt have this problem, and then i'd consider buying one later on. i just prefer autos over manuals.

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