GM may kill off one of it's brands

[GTLUVA]

GM may kill off Buick or Pontiac
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One of automaker's storied brands may follow Oldsmobile to the grave if sales fail to meet targets, execs say. It's a move analysts have urged for years.

By Reuters

General Motors, which issued a shock profit warning last week and has been losing market share, may phase out one of its weaker car brands if sales fail to meet projections, company Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said on Wednesday.

GM's (GM, news, msgs) Buick and Pontiac are both "damaged brands'' due to lack of investment over the years, and GM is working to correct that with an array of new vehicles coming to market, Lutz told a Morgan Stanley automotive conference in New York.

But if some of its brands fail to meet sales projections, "then we would have to take a look at a phase-out. I hope we don't have to do that. What we've got to do is keep the brands we've got.''

Financial analysts have said for years that the world's largest automaker has too many brands to support, even with the gradual phase-out of the Oldsmobile brand a few years ago, particularly with its weaker U.S. sales.

Stemming the losses
Sales for both Pontiac and Buick have lagged in recent years. But GM is in the midst of a $3 billion investment in new vehicles for Buick, and Pontiac showrooms and they will have four new vehicles this year, including the Solstice roadster, Torrent SUV and the G6 mid-size coupe.

GM, which last week cut its earnings outlook for 2005 by as much as 80%, posted a 6% drop in U.S. sales for the first two months of the year. GM's U.S. market share fell to about 25%, far below its share of 27.5% for all of 2004.

Analysts said last week that GM's March sales could fall as much as 10% in March, while foreign automakers such as Toyota (TM, news, msgs), Hyundai (HYMLF, news, msgs) and Nissan (NSANF, news, msgs) would continue to gain U.S. market share.

Lutz said GM will post relatively flat U.S. sales for March, however, performing much better than expected.

"I think we're going to be just about even, our best guess at this point. Either a percent over or a percent under,'' he said. "It is a substantially better month than January or February, and it looks like the whole industry is up.''

'A huge albatross'
No details about an expected restructuring at GM, the largest private U.S. provider of health care, have emerged since it roiled markets with its warning last week.

But the company, which has about $300 billion in outstanding debt, said on Wednesday it was in talks to sell a stake in its GMAC Commercial Mortgage unit after potential investors expressed interest in the unit.

And Lutz and Gary Cowger, GM's president for North America, spoke of possible demands for a cut in mounting health care benefits for the company's hourly union employees in remarks on the sidelines of the New York auto show on Wednesday.

An elimination of any one of GM's brands would likely mean plant closings and a shrinking of GM's hourly work force.

"An across-the-board competitive health-care plan for salaried and hourly employees could literally save us billions,'' Cowger said. Health-care costs, added Lutz, are "a huge albatross hanging over American industry today.''

Lutz particularly acknowledged that the automaker, which will struggle to make a profit this year, faces challenges. But he said GM was "taking the necessary step to right this ship.''

"Sure, we face short-term challenges, and this is not going to be a banner year,'' he said. "It's a difficult period of adjustment. But we will get through it.''

He said some of GM's new cars, such as its Chevrolet Cobalt small car and the Pontiac G6 midsize car, will post their best sales to date in March, and told the Morgan Stanley conference "I don't know where all the gloom and doom is coming from.''

He quoted one car reviewer who said, referring to GM's troubles, that the quality of the Cobalt convinced him that "the Titanic may yet turn fast enough to miss the iceberg.''

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...7.asp?GT1=6301

- Reuters
- MSN Money

[GregFarz78]

I can see buick maybe but I think pontiac will stick around. The only ones that will miss buick is the senior citizen crowd

But the company, which has about $300 billion in outstanding debt, said on Wednesday it was in talks to sell a stake in its GMAC Commercial Mortgage unit after potential investors expressed interest in the unit.

WOW just wow

[Vintalage]

Originally Posted by GregFarz78

I can see buick maybe but I think pontiac will stick around. The only ones that will miss buick is the senior citizen crowd
[/i]

Well, I don't know. Aren't sales higher at the Buick division than at Pontiac? It's going to be Pontiac. Saturn will take over the market Pontiac held. I thought about this way back in '02 when phasing out Oldsmobile was just underway with the Intrigue. Then again, Pontiac has a long history that Saturn does not.

[Vintalage]

GTLUVA, quote the text next time instead of just providing the link. Makes it alot easier for the members here. I'm going to correct it.

Edit: And I had to re-title the thread.

[AMRAAM4]

How the fock can Chevy stay around over Pontiac??? Only thing that keeps them aloft are the trucks and Vette!! Their vehicles are a complete JOKE. Buick.......my Lord are their cars bad. I don't know of any other brand vehicle that when you look at it you get that feeling like your at an old person's home.



Side note...my Miami Dolphins board that I take part in has a rule in their TOS that you cannot quote entire articles. Is ti me, or is that extremely focking queer??? The material is copyrighted on most news sites but still, it's on the internet and is somewhat public knowledge. Lots of news is posted there on player stuff, obviously, and they ream people. I think it comes from the actual d1ckhead writers though. Dan LeBatard and a few of the other Miami sports reporters actually read the site and when they see us fans bashing them for their stupid ass mudslinging of Miami (whom they are suppose to be supporting and reporting on) they threeaten the website owners I believe

[GregFarz78]

Originally Posted by Vintalage

Well, I don't know. Aren't sales higher at the Buick division than at Pontiac? It's going to be Pontiac. Saturn will take over the market Pontiac held. I thought about this way back in '02 when phasing out Oldsmobile was just underway with the Intrigue. Then again, Pontiac has a long history that Saturn does not.

but but pontiac is GMs so called peformance division arent they?

I dunno I still think they should've kept olds and killed buick, the only people that drive buicks are rappers or senior citizens that cant afford caddalics

[Mike3800]

Dumb **** GM execs/bean counters @ it again. KILL THE BRAND... it's not the vehicles or the prices it's the BRAND

[Mike3800]

Originally Posted by AMRAAM4

How the fock can Chevy stay around over Pontiac???

Ever notice that most of Pontiacs or most Chevys are the same thing with a different badge? What's better, Trans Am or Camaro? Same ****.

If Chevy has nothing, neither does Pontiac and vice versa.

IIRC the LS1 under your hood of your "GTO" is known as a Chevrolet engine.

[Braves299]

Well having both Pontiac AND Chevrolet seems to be kind of redundant. Pontiac is not a performance division anymore. Chevrolet sells every car they have, so of course they would keep Chevy over Pontiac.

[Special Ross]

Originally Posted by Mike3800

Ever notice that most of Pontiacs or most Chevys are the same thing with a different badge? What's better, Trans Am or Camaro? Same ****.

If Chevy has nothing, neither does Pontiac and vice versa.

IIRC the LS1 under your hood of your "GTO" is known as a Chevrolet engine.

Thats brand sharing for you. GM is a fat bloated company. They need to do what DCX did with their union health care. GM has soo much legacy costs its not funny. Also, the unions are killing GM from the inside out. Hopefully in 2007 when GM has to renegotiate their contract with the unions, they should tell them to **** off. GM should start to hire non-union factory workers.

I can go on and on, but I think thats enough...

[bigbenSC]

Kill Saturn, that brand has lost its way. What does Saturn mean as a brand to you? It's nothing to me. As for the comparison between Chevy and Pontiac, style is the main difference. Personally I like Pontiac better as most of us here do, but it doesn't have the recognition that Chevy does. Chevy will never be killed off. Buick can go for all I care, but Bob Lutz has kind of made it his new job to turn it into the American Lexus, so I don't see it going anywhere.

Honestly, I see Saab being sold off and GM dropping Izuzu before they lose a long time brand.

[Vintalage]

Originally Posted by Braves299

Well having both Pontiac AND Chevrolet seems to be kind of redundant. Pontiac is not a performance division anymore. Chevrolet sells every car they have, so of course they would keep Chevy over Pontiac.

It wouldn't be redundant if the brands were aimed at different markets. Pontiac claims performance yet offers us a revised Malibu with 200hp out of the gate. WTF??? The styling is lacking and the interior needs to go. This is what the G6 interior should have looked like:



A mazda 3's interior looks better than the G6 with equal or greater quality materials. That is sad. I see more BMW inspiration from Mazda than I do from Pontiac. Yet Lutz wanted Pontiac to be a BMW competitor. I sure don't see that.

Pontiac should be pumping out BMW/Audi inspired RWD/AWD vehicles with Toyota/Honda quality for a low price. The only vehicle that partially meets that goal is the GTO.

With the exception of the GTO and possibly the Vibe, the Pontiac lineup is terrible.

[Vintalage]

What GM did with Oldsmobile with the introduction of the 1995 Aurora was great. Despite it's reliablity, it was a very good car for the money. The car was innovative, powerful, and designed well. It was ahead of it's time. That car shows what GM is capable of. Too bad that concept didn't continue throughout the Oldsmobile lineup. The brand may have fared better. Same thing is happening with Pontiac. Deja vu. Nothing innovative. Nothing different. Nothing stands out. The brand leaves no impression on the market.

I don't catch people saying I want a Grand prix. Or I want a G6. I do hear them saying "I want a Accord. I want a TSX. I want a TL. I want a Altima. I want a G35. I want a Camry. I want a GS." I could go on and on.

There is no desire for a Pontiac vehicle.

[Braves299]

I want a GTO

[GAGTSCTGuy]

Originally Posted by Vintalage

It wouldn't be redundant if the brands were aimed at different markets. Pontiac claims performance yet offers us a revised Malibu with 200hp out of the gate. WTF??? The styling is lacking and the interior needs to go. This is what the G6 interior should have looked like:

The 04+ Malibu is slooowwwww....... It's like the (stock) N/A 3800s

[GAGTSCTGuy]

Originally Posted by Braves299

I want a GTO

I would take one too.... I much rather see the return of the Firebird though....but I don't think that will happen any time soon

[Mike3800]

Originally Posted by GAGTSCTGuy

The 04+ Malibu is slooowwwww....... It's like the (stock) N/A 3800s

Yeah... I hate the 3800 engine too.


The 97-02 Grand Prix GT is only a little faster than the 99-present Grand Am GT. How weak is THAT!!!

[GAGTSCTGuy]

Originally Posted by Mike3800

Yeah... I hate the 3800 engine too.


The 97-02 Grand Prix GT is only a little faster than the 99-present Grand Am GT. How weak is THAT!!!

I'm going to have to argue that (they all run 16 sec 1/4 stock....)

[Mike3800]

Originally Posted by GAGTSCTGuy

I'm going to have to argue that (they all run 16 sec 1/4 stock....)

Argue all you want. I have owned both at the same time. 2001 Grand Am GT and 1998 Grand Prix SE with the N/A 3800. Grand Prix was faster every time. I took it to the track and ran a 15.6, it was stock besides the drop in K&N filter, and in my book it's still 100% stock.

2000 Grand Prix GT runs 15.7 in the 1/4 according to the mags. The heavier and differntly geared Impala runs 16.2 (mag time).

[GAGTSCTGuy]

Can't go by those mags, you know they are never accurate.

I've never seen it, hell I've seen some run 16.3.... And they say the track I go to (Capitol) is downhill..... Maybe all the ones I've seen are the runts, or maybe your's was a Factory freak.... I've driven a 99 GPGT, and it was slow compared to my GAGT

And you could probably go over to ClubGP and check out the times over there, it will prove my point...(They have real world numbers, not magazine numbers which are bull****)

here is one in specific, but there are more(I've found them before), I'm not going to search though....
http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.as...ode=&s=#319463

GPGT mid15 - low16, 0-60 8+ secs

GAGT low - high15's, 0-60 <8 sec....


edit: BTW I thought the 1998 SE had a 3.1L?