Sad, Sad News :-(

[Braves299]

http://www.nascar.com/2006/news/head....ap/index.html

Say it ain't so!

[notsoaveragej0e]

I used to be a big Nascar fan, but I am losing a lot of interest lately. Companies are putting in Nascar cars that are sold off the line as front wheel drive, v6 cars, 4 door sedans as competition. Where are the rear wheel v8's?
I would watch companies putting actual STOCK cars, off the line, with nothing more than upgraded tires and race them. Let's see how well the Camry does against the V8 Monte Carlo or the V8 Charger... And the Fusion? The fact that Ford is RACING a Fusion is disgusting, and I hate them for it.

[Braves299]

Well the point of the article was about Toyota becoming the #1 Automaker. I'm not happy about them entering NASCAR either, but that's the smaller of the two evils.

[stangdude]

as much as I REALLY hate to say this, the various rumors that pop up from time to time about Ford and GM merging may not be a bad idea. Each have aspects that they are strong on, the problem being that Toyota is almost as strong in all aspects.

[5-lO]

I fail to see the issue here. Granted yes Americas #1 one vehicle is now a japanese made car (well, atleast the roots are japanese originated) but whos fault is that?

The consumers decide. They want a product that isnt going to cost them loads of money, they want a product that isnt going to waste thier time by being in the shop all the time.

My Grand Am, 26 service reports within 36k miles. The tC? (Toyota made) Been in twice for non-maintenence reports over 20k miles.

I fail to see what is so sad? GM and Ford have been ripping off customers for years, maybe this will be motivation for both to re-organize and re-prioritize and make cars that not only look good (I do like alot of GMs designs) but have a signature of quality as good as thier looks.

My .02

[LoboMan7409]

Well last time I checked GM has been pooping out award winning cars over and over lately. Not only that but they back it with a 100,000 mile warrantee now. People just dont want to buy American anymore because they did have a bad spot but now they are busting out some bad ass cars (Corvette, Camaro, Z06, Saturn Sky) all are award winning and all are backed for 100,000 miles. So tell me what is so wrong with American cars, how are they ripping people off.

[stangdude]

I agree with a lot of what you just said, I've been a Ford person all my life, my Grand Am was my first GM and I loved it, great car. My new Mustang was comparatively well priced, although still high in my opinion for what you get these days in cars. Both Ford and GM need to realize that most americans don't want to be paying for 6 years on a new car, and can't afford a $30k car any other way. Comperable "Japanese" (really indiana made) cars are quite a bit cheaper. I, being an engineer who has been in many of these plants, can also say that the Japanese quality standards are light years ahead of the standards set forth in American automotive plants. If the japanese can make a better car for a cheaper price, then why can't Americans. I do realize that they also do it with a smaller workforce, which is something american companies don't want to talk about. However, in the long run isn't it better to lay off a quarter of your workforce than have to lay off everyone in the company because you are bankrupt?

[5-lO]

Originally Posted by LoboMan7409

Well last time I checked GM has been pooping out award winning cars over and over lately. Not only that but they back it with a 100,000 mile warrantee now. People just dont want to buy American anymore because they did have a bad spot but now they are busting out some bad ass cars (Corvette, Camaro, Z06, Saturn Sky) all are award winning and all are backed for 100,000 miles. So tell me what is so wrong with American cars, how are they ripping people off.

Keywords: "Lately" and "Now"

These trends that the article reflects are taking thing into account from a long time. It took Toyota a while to creap to the spot they have.

Im not saying GM wont have a turn around, as clearly now they might be getting the hint and are doing some things heading in a good direction. But things dont just change overnight.

GM has been losing ground in the market share for a while, and its a slipperly slope of sorts. They may now have caught an ice pick into the slope, but they have miles of slipperly snowy hill to climb.

Also, you named 4 vehicles, all of which may be "nastalogic" of GM, however none of them are the "bread and butter" "cookie cutter" cars. A car company cannot survive on selling 1000 Z06s in a year (that number is purely a guess). Its thier cars like the cobalt, etc. Which is a well selling vehicle, but is still lightyears behind the Toyota (and all Japanese brand) equivalents.

So all in all, maybe GM isnt ripping anyone off anymore... but they have been, and its going to be a long time coming before that market share comes back.

[digitalballz]

WOW didnt see that one coming....

[pyro]

nascar sucks regardless = win

[LoboMan7409]

Well it doesn't matter, that is a 2007 projection anyways so I dont think that Toyota is going to do as well as they think when cars like the new camary (basic V6 MSRP 29,000) and the new toyota Tundra (which had to delay the launch 6 months for an interior redesign because the new Silvarado and Sierra was in a class of its own (BTW the sierra and Silvarado tow 2,000 more lbs on the base 5.3 then the optional 5.7 in the Toyota and then you can opt for the 6.0 in the GM trucks and they will pull the devil out of hell for less money. Comparing the new camary to say the new Saturn Aura wich I picked all the options that I did on the camary and it came to MSRP 25,319.00. So I hate to say it but IMO GM is going to stay top dog for years go come. But that is just IMO

[pyro]

Originally Posted by LoboMan7409

Well it doesn't matter, that is a 2007 projection anyways so I dont think that Toyota is going to do as well as they think when cars like the new camary (basic V6 MSRP 29,000) and the new toyota Tundra (which had to delay the launch 6 months for an interior redesign because the new Silvarado and Sierra was in a class of its own (BTW the sierra and Silvarado tow 2,000 more lbs on the base 5.3 then the optional 5.7 in the Toyota and then you can opt for the 6.0 in the GM trucks and they will pull the devil out of hell for less money. Comparing the new camary to say the new Saturn Aura wich I picked all the options that I did on the camary and it came to MSRP 25,319.00. So I hate to say it but IMO GM is going to stay top dog for years go come. But that is just IMO

well it would appear that your opinion is wrong.
GM is in a losing race and will continue to be in the ****hole unless they clean up their act.

[5-lO]

Originally Posted by LoboMan7409

Well it doesn't matter, that is a 2007 projection anyways so I dont think that Toyota is going to do as well as they think when cars like the new camary (basic V6 MSRP 29,000) and the new toyota Tundra (which had to delay the launch 6 months for an interior redesign because the new Silvarado and Sierra was in a class of its own (BTW the sierra and Silvarado tow 2,000 more lbs on the base 5.3 then the optional 5.7 in the Toyota and then you can opt for the 6.0 in the GM trucks and they will pull the devil out of hell for less money. Comparing the new camary to say the new Saturn Aura wich I picked all the options that I did on the camary and it came to MSRP 25,319.00. So I hate to say it but IMO GM is going to stay top dog for years go come. But that is just IMO

The one thing you are correct on in this whole post is the GM truck part. They are in a class of thier own, and for the most part they are much better than Toyota trucks. But again trucks are a smaller segmant over all, and I believe the truck buyers in the two brands are two different demographics. The GM trucks are work trucks, haulers, good reliable work horses while the Toyota pick up is more for the person who wants the practicalities of a pick-up but doesnt need the ruggedness.

Also the base price for a Camry V6 IS NOT 29k. Whoever told you that is clearly smoking the purple, and some damn good stuff at that. You can get into a V6 Camry at around 23k, while the XLE (top of the line model) is the one that starts around 28k. Hell you can get into a camry hybrid around 28k as well.

And the Aura may be cheaper, but have you seen the inside of Toyotas now a days? Very luxurious and the fit and finish is top notch.

Again, Im not against GM... but the market is trending against that. Thats not an opinion thats a fact. They have a whole to dig themselves out of. Now that they are pricing thier pick-ups about where they should be, they will gain some ground. The whole point of my previous post was that the past is impacting the future, regardless of what they are doing now they have a lot of ground to make up.

[LoboMan7409]

but that is just your opinion. GM actually made more this last quarter then expected, a lot more I think it was billions more. If they continue to make cars like the saturn Sky and Pontiac Soltice, Z06 and new GMC's and Sierras then my opinion will prove right. I would also like to ask you not to say my opinion is wrong untill it is proven wrong and since this is a projection of sales for 2007 we wont know for another year.

[LoboMan7409]

Originally Posted by 5-lO

The one thing you are correct on in this whole post is the GM truck part. They are in a class of thier own, and for the most part they are much better than Toyota trucks. But again trucks are a smaller segmant over all, and I believe the truck buyers in the two brands are two different demographics. The GM trucks are work trucks, haulers, good reliable work horses while the Toyota pick up is more for the person who wants the practicalities of a pick-up but doesnt need the ruggedness.

Also the base price for a Camry V6 IS NOT 29k. Whoever told you that is clearly smoking the purple, and some damn good stuff at that. You can get into a V6 Camry at around 23k, while the XLE (top of the line model) is the one that starts around 28k. Hell you can get into a camry hybrid around 28k as well.

And the Aura may be cheaper, but have you seen the inside of Toyotas now a days? Very luxurious and the fit and finish is top notch.

Again, Im not against GM... but the market is trending against that. Thats not an opinion thats a fact. They have a whole to dig themselves out of. Now that they are pricing thier pick-ups about where they should be, they will gain some ground. The whole point of my previous post was that the past is impacting the future, regardless of what they are doing now they have a lot of ground to make up.

Here is the Toyota that I picked it is the base V6 with all the same features as the saturn (XM, Remote Start and a security system little things like that)

Model:

LE V6 6-Speed Auto (2552) $23,340

Delivery, Handling and Processing Fee:** $620

Options: $3,000
50 State Emissions, 16-In. 7-Spoke Aluminum Alloy Wheels w/P215/60R16 Tires, JBL® AM/FM 6-Disc In-Dash CD Changer w/8 Speakers in 6 Locations, Satellite Radio Capability[17], MP3/WMA Playback Capability, Aux. Audio Jack, and Bluetooth®[18] Wireless Technology., Moonroof Package includes: Power Tilt/Slide Moonroof w/Sliding Sunshade, Dual Illuminated Visor Vanity Mirrors w/Dimmer Control & Rear Personal Reading Lights, Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) w/ Traction Control (TRAC)[3]

Accessories: $2,198
Remote Engine Start (V4) $595
VIP RS3200 Plus Security System [20] (V5) $359
16" 15 Spoke Aluminum Alloy Wheels (WB) $795
XM Satellite Radio Kit [7] (P7) $449

Total MSRP:*** $29,158


The Saturn equally equiped with a more powerful engine

STANDARD FEATURES
252-hp, 3.6L V-6, DOHC, VVT, 6-cylinder, 6-speed automaticSix-disc, in-dash CD/MP3 player with AM/FM stereoInterior ambient lighting6-speed automatic transmission with TAPshiftFour-wheel disc brakes with ABS and dynamic rear proportioningStabiliTrak Stability Control

PACKAGES AND OPTIONS
Enhanced Convenience Package, Includes a six-way power adjustable front passenger's seat and power adjustable pedals.$425.00Premium floor mats, Premium floor mats offer a heavier weight carpet and stitched edges. The front and trunk mats also feature the AURA name.$100.00XM Satellite Radio (2), XM Satellite Radio gives you access to more than 170 news, talk, sports and music channels coast-to-coast, so you'll never be without entertainment., (2) Available only in the 48 contiguous United States. Service fees extra. Visit gm.xmradio.com for system details.$199.00

EXTERIOR ACCESSORIES
No exterior accessories were selected.

INTERIOR ACCESSORIES
No interior accessories were selected.

TOTAL
Total MSRP$25,319.00
Retailer Installed Accessories*$0.00

Equally equipped these are the prices. And I dont know if you have sat in the new GTO's, G6's, Tahoes, Yukons. Their interiors are AMAZING.

[5-lO]

Ok the option package you added, adds items that that aura does not have however. And that also shows the BASE PRICE is not 29k, it is 23k. However I do not have a standard features list to look at.

The interiors on the SUVs are nice, just like the pick ups, Ill give you that. GTO, yeah sure but look at all the problems the M6 has. G6? Laughable at best, its a step above the chincy-ness of the GAGT IMO. But thats just my opinion.

This is all off topic. The main point is it is not sad news. Toyota earned its place by building reliable well built and adequately equipped cars. GM may be picking its act up now, which you have brought up, but that in no way changes the fact that they have focked over customers for years. Yes this is about current market share, BUT current market share is all relative and reflects THE PAST.

Case and point if GM gets ousted, its thier own faults.

[LoboMan7409]

agreed, I just hope it doesnt happen

[Rich]

Originally Posted by notsoaveragej0e

I used to be a big Nascar fan, but I am losing a lot of interest lately. Companies are putting in Nascar cars that are sold off the line as front wheel drive, v6 cars, 4 door sedans as competition. Where are the rear wheel v8's?
I would watch companies putting actual STOCK cars, off the line, with nothing more than upgraded tires and race them. Let's see how well the Camry does against the V8 Monte Carlo or the V8 Charger... And the Fusion? The fact that Ford is RACING a Fusion is disgusting, and I hate them for it.

i understand this isnt the point of the thread but i just wanted to say i agree. it would be interesting to see if they made hendrick there own team and watch the automakers try to catch up.

on topic: i also agree if anything this is good news. hopefully better cars are on the way from gm.

[crazypontiac03]

Im a NASCAR fan and Toyota is the Sport, Sucks!

Anyway, the hole toyota, Gm,Ford, Nissan yadda yadda, crap basically boils down to..U have problem's with a car/truck chance's are ur not going to go back to them.. Gm had Crappy Car's in the 90's well up untill about 3yr ago. Those that had problems went else where. Simple as that.

Now they have to win them back. Which will take time and good design.. It take's time it wont happen overnight by any means.

The statment of quality than quantity. Apparently that didnt apply in 06.
With the Recall of the Highlander,Tacoma,Prius,Camry.

[Grand_Damn]

kids just want imports cause its easier to make it a ricer

and with Japanese vehicles, you got aftermarket parts from Japan and US....with US vehicles, its just aftermarket parts from the US....because you'll find not too much US vehicles in Japan...its always been that way, gonna be that way even if US makes a awesome car.

as for Nascar...eh...not a big fan.