LIM gasket change walkthrough - Page 11

Sprucegagt · 02-18-2007, 01:07 AM

The injector O-rings are supposed to go into the hole, NOT on top of it. You have the injectors seated wrong causing a big vacuum leak and making the engine die. If your not sure how the injectors are supposed to go back in, then find a picture here or have someone show you.

02-18-2007, 01:30 AM

Yes after doing massive searches I kept reading people saying the O-ring goes past the hole. So i went back and fixed that, but still was getting the same sound and problem. It seems like all the o-rings go completely in the openings.

I smell fuel though, but i cannot tell if its fuel that spilled during the install or fiddling around with the fuel rail....but the car starting then the PSSST noise as if somethings popping out makes me think something with the fuel rail is wrong...but checking it out everything looks fine.

Would a vacuum leak on one of those three tubes I mentioned cause that PSST noise also?

BHermis · 02-18-2007, 10:33 AM

Make sure that you press down firmly, (25lbs of force) on each injector while they are in the rail. And then make sure the bolts that hold the fuel down are completely screwed in. That should eliminate any problems with them not being seated. Also you may want to check the orings onthe fuel injectors. Is the oring on the fuel feed and return lines ok? Check to make sure those are seated correctly and didn't fall off when you put them in.

02-18-2007, 11:18 AM

yes i checked that. all the injectors are sitting fine all the orings are fine.

my question is would the vacuum leaks make the car start fine then die then 2 seconds later you hear PSSSST really fast? Because if just those hoses being replaced can fix that then ill order them...if theres anything else wrong im just gonna have it brought to a shop..and i REALLY dont want to.

so unless its logical or common for those hoses to cause that problem i dont want to put more effort in.

ill most likely tonight take pictures and a video so you can hear it hopefully to help diagnose the problem.

gectek · 02-18-2007, 01:50 PM

yes it will. the engine needs vacuum at idle to idle right, otherwise your O2 sensor shows a lean condition and it will kill the car, because you are already lean with the IAC on and it is unmetered air that is comming into the engine, so the PCM cannot compensate for it, and it dies. either hose can do that also, because it is air that is not metered by the MAF. also the MAP will not work right and notice a diff in vacuum or pressure and that will compound the effect. the hissing you are hearing is the valve train shutting down letting the excess pressure and vacuum in the cyls and behind the valves back out. fix the hoses and you should be good to go. also the o rings are for a positive seat in the LIM, so make sure they go in the appropriate spots on the injectors, also did you notice if all of the plastic cones were on the injectors or not, those can cause vacuum leaks also. if they are smashed flat or wallowed out then you have to replace those also, because they will get brittle and break and sometimes seat behind the valve and make all sorts of problems also. and one more time. make sure your TB gasket is in one piece and also make sure both bolts are torqued down correct.

02-18-2007, 02:47 PM

okay heres an update.

ordered the tubes that were broken and also a retainer for the injector.

i noticed one of the retainer clips for the cyl 6 injector was broken. so it wasnt held in tight enough. all the orings and "cone" things are in good shape.

when the parts arrive i will fix it all up again and see if it works.

Last few questions for now (sorry).

When seating the injectors is the injector supposed to go ALL the way in until the wider part is touching the opening..or just as long as the oring passes through?

Plus, how do you get that friggin vacuum hose from the rear valve cover to the intake to sit properly...it does not want to bend the right way so that the connection to hte valve cover is secure AND the intake connection is secure..its seems only one or the other...

black05GT · 02-18-2007, 05:29 PM

The (exact, correct, and specific ) gm part number for those two parts ( the PCV valve to evap purge valve tube, and the larger black tube from the MAF side of the TB to the firewall side valve cover) FOR BOTH PARTS is 12581196. I paid $18.66 at the dealer parts counter, gmpartsdirect says $9.62

gectek · 02-18-2007, 05:36 PM

wow thats funny because the front PCV valve vacuum hose doesnt go to the MAP sensor, i gave him that number straight off the box. the tube you are talking about goes to the evap purge solenoid and also to the top of the TB and the front PCV valve. the number i gave him is for the right part, because i bought it that way.

also you can use a heat gun or hair dryer to heat and mold the tube to make sure it fits both places

black05GT · 02-18-2007, 06:05 PM

gectek, I do believe you may have me there, but it sounded like the two pieces that he needed. I'll have to re-construct the 3400 UIM, it's in parts in my garage

gectek · 02-18-2007, 07:37 PM

well i have the diagram and the hose you are talking about right in front of me, they may sell them as a set, which is good to get, but he will still have to get the other MAP vacuum line. the small end of the hose from the front has a u shaped elbow on it that tends to take alot of abuse from all the gasoline vapors and outside conditions and likes to leak and crack, so it is a good idea to replace that as well, and also the PCV valve if it has a few miles/years on it

02-18-2007, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gectek

also you can use a heat gun or hair dryer to heat and mold the tube to make sure it fits both places

i dont understand what you mean, or how to do that. what's wierd is that this tube fit perfectly fine before I did the LIM job. now i cant seem to figure out what way it could physically have leverage to keep it in the rear valve cover...seems impossible..i dunno.

BHermis · 02-18-2007, 10:45 PM

I had a problem geting that one to seat also. However i got it most of the way in on the valve cover and it worked.

Blackrider · 02-18-2007, 11:31 PM

I dont know if this has been brought up but it much easyer to remove the fuel rail with the lower intake manifold.

Dave Carney · 02-19-2007, 09:01 AM

This is almost too painful to watch.

Wushdishmeen, if the line is going the right direction and routed the same way as it was when it was removed, then it has to fit. Period. If it's popping out of the valve cover, then, something underneath the line (that wasn't there before) is forcing it up. Look closely at how you have it routed, should be obvious what the problem is. Route that line UNDER the other stuff like wire bundles and such.

polo77 · 02-19-2007, 09:30 AM

I can gladly name my list with everyone else. Mine just went at 111,000. My garage Gave me an estimate of 250-300 to get it done. This is the garage that has always done great work and gives me an honest answer on seems like everything. Im waiting to see what another garage says. But I thought there prioce was a bit low.

BHermis · 02-19-2007, 09:49 AM

That is pretty low. The lowest quote i got was 550

02-19-2007, 10:36 AM

guys, when searching for a retainer clip for the injector i found one that was a package of 6 of them which was like $22, then someone on here gave me a part number that was for one retainer, then the guys at puritanparts said "yea the retainer you selected is for a 2000 grand am please advise if you want this order to continue"

arent all the retainers the same?

gectek · 02-19-2007, 10:40 AM

what i meant was to use heat to change the shape or curve of the tube so that it will fit. check routing though. also it would have been ALOT easier to leave the fuel rail in the LIM when u take it off, i did and didnt have any injector problems, o ring problems or anything like that

polo77 · 02-19-2007, 11:13 AM

Just got another estimate for 375. These seem kinda low from what everyone else has said.

02-19-2007, 11:34 AM

yea i didnt realize you didnt have to take the rail off..but i was following the walkthrough step by step so since he did it so do i...im wishing i never did though hah

oh well.

so, will a 2000+ injector retainer clip work on a 99? They look slightly different but the same concept of how to keep it in, so it should right?

02-18-2007, 01:07 AM	#201
Sprucegagt Schwartz Power! AKA: Andy Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ranson, WV Age: 46 Posts: 2,027 Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT	The injector O-rings are supposed to go into the hole, NOT on top of it. You have the injectors seated wrong causing a big vacuum leak and making the engine die. If your not sure how the injectors are supposed to go back in, then find a picture here or have someone show you. __________________ 2000 Grand Am GT (some day it will be SC/T) Mods: alot

02-18-2007, 11:18 AM	#204
wushdishmeen Guest Posts: n/a	yes i checked that. all the injectors are sitting fine all the orings are fine. my question is would the vacuum leaks make the car start fine then die then 2 seconds later you hear PSSSST really fast? Because if just those hoses being replaced can fix that then ill order them...if theres anything else wrong im just gonna have it brought to a shop..and i REALLY dont want to. so unless its logical or common for those hoses to cause that problem i dont want to put more effort in. ill most likely tonight take pictures and a video so you can hear it hopefully to help diagnose the problem. Last edited by wushdishmeen; 02-18-2007 at 11:38 AM.

02-18-2007, 01:50 PM	#205
gectek I hate nose hair AKA: John Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 2,051 Vehicle: 2002 Grand Am GT sc/t	yes it will. the engine needs vacuum at idle to idle right, otherwise your O2 sensor shows a lean condition and it will kill the car, because you are already lean with the IAC on and it is unmetered air that is comming into the engine, so the PCM cannot compensate for it, and it dies. either hose can do that also, because it is air that is not metered by the MAF. also the MAP will not work right and notice a diff in vacuum or pressure and that will compound the effect. the hissing you are hearing is the valve train shutting down letting the excess pressure and vacuum in the cyls and behind the valves back out. fix the hoses and you should be good to go. also the o rings are for a positive seat in the LIM, so make sure they go in the appropriate spots on the injectors, also did you notice if all of the plastic cones were on the injectors or not, those can cause vacuum leaks also. if they are smashed flat or wallowed out then you have to replace those also, because they will get brittle and break and sometimes seat behind the valve and make all sorts of problems also. and one more time. make sure your TB gasket is in one piece and also make sure both bolts are torqued down correct. __________________ If you unscrew ur belly button, will ur butt fall off? Procrastinators UNITE!!!.....tomorrow

02-18-2007, 05:29 PM	#207
black05GT A Damn Yankee AKA: Fitz Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 157 Vehicle: 2005 Grand Am GT Coupe	The (exact, correct, and specific ) gm part number for those two parts ( the PCV valve to evap purge valve tube, and the larger black tube from the MAF side of the TB to the firewall side valve cover) FOR BOTH PARTS is 12581196. I paid $18.66 at the dealer parts counter, gmpartsdirect says $9.62 Last edited by black05GT; 02-18-2007 at 06:09 PM. Reason: edited

02-18-2007, 05:36 PM	#208
gectek I hate nose hair AKA: John Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 2,051 Vehicle: 2002 Grand Am GT sc/t	wow thats funny because the front PCV valve vacuum hose doesnt go to the MAP sensor, i gave him that number straight off the box. the tube you are talking about goes to the evap purge solenoid and also to the top of the TB and the front PCV valve. the number i gave him is for the right part, because i bought it that way. also you can use a heat gun or hair dryer to heat and mold the tube to make sure it fits both places __________________ If you unscrew ur belly button, will ur butt fall off? Procrastinators UNITE!!!.....tomorrow Last edited by gectek; 02-18-2007 at 05:39 PM. Reason: add

02-18-2007, 01:30 AM	#202
wushdishmeen Guest Posts: n/a	Yes after doing massive searches I kept reading people saying the O-ring goes past the hole. So i went back and fixed that, but still was getting the same sound and problem. It seems like all the o-rings go completely in the openings. I smell fuel though, but i cannot tell if its fuel that spilled during the install or fiddling around with the fuel rail....but the car starting then the PSSST noise as if somethings popping out makes me think something with the fuel rail is wrong...but checking it out everything looks fine. Would a vacuum leak on one of those three tubes I mentioned cause that PSST noise also?

02-18-2007, 10:33 AM	#203
BHermis GAGT - Newbie AKA: Brian Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 29 Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT Coupe	Make sure that you press down firmly, (25lbs of force) on each injector while they are in the rail. And then make sure the bolts that hold the fuel down are completely screwed in. That should eliminate any problems with them not being seated. Also you may want to check the orings onthe fuel injectors. Is the oring on the fuel feed and return lines ok? Check to make sure those are seated correctly and didn't fall off when you put them in.

02-18-2007, 02:47 PM	#206
wushdishmeen Guest Posts: n/a	okay heres an update. ordered the tubes that were broken and also a retainer for the injector. i noticed one of the retainer clips for the cyl 6 injector was broken. so it wasnt held in tight enough. all the orings and "cone" things are in good shape. when the parts arrive i will fix it all up again and see if it works. Last few questions for now (sorry). When seating the injectors is the injector supposed to go ALL the way in until the wider part is touching the opening..or just as long as the oring passes through? Plus, how do you get that friggin vacuum hose from the rear valve cover to the intake to sit properly...it does not want to bend the right way so that the connection to hte valve cover is secure AND the intake connection is secure..its seems only one or the other...

02-18-2007, 06:05 PM	#209
black05GT A Damn Yankee AKA: Fitz Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 157 Vehicle: 2005 Grand Am GT Coupe	gectek, I do believe you may have me there, but it sounded like the two pieces that he needed. I'll have to re-construct the 3400 UIM, it's in parts in my garage

02-18-2007, 07:37 PM	#210
gectek I hate nose hair AKA: John Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 2,051 Vehicle: 2002 Grand Am GT sc/t	well i have the diagram and the hose you are talking about right in front of me, they may sell them as a set, which is good to get, but he will still have to get the other MAP vacuum line. the small end of the hose from the front has a u shaped elbow on it that tends to take alot of abuse from all the gasoline vapors and outside conditions and likes to leak and crack, so it is a good idea to replace that as well, and also the PCV valve if it has a few miles/years on it __________________ If you unscrew ur belly button, will ur butt fall off? Procrastinators UNITE!!!.....tomorrow

02-18-2007, 10:45 PM	#212
BHermis GAGT - Newbie AKA: Brian Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 29 Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT Coupe	I had a problem geting that one to seat also. However i got it most of the way in on the valve cover and it worked.

02-18-2007, 11:31 PM	#213
Blackrider Ifeast Upon The Weak AKA: Jordie Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Victoria B.C. Age: 36 Posts: 3,048 Vehicle: 06 GTP 6Speed	I dont know if this has been brought up but it much easyer to remove the fuel rail with the lower intake manifold. __________________ 60DegreeGTP

02-19-2007, 09:01 AM	#214
Dave Carney GAGT - Member AKA: Dave Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Derby, KS Posts: 41 Vehicle: 2002 Grand Am SE Coupe	This is almost too painful to watch. Wushdishmeen, if the line is going the right direction and routed the same way as it was when it was removed, then it has to fit. Period. If it's popping out of the valve cover, then, something underneath the line (that wasn't there before) is forcing it up. Look closely at how you have it routed, should be obvious what the problem is. Route that line UNDER the other stuff like wire bundles and such.

02-19-2007, 09:30 AM	#215
polo77 GAGT - Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Poland Maine Posts: 72 Vehicle: 1999 Grand am GT	I can gladly name my list with everyone else. Mine just went at 111,000. My garage Gave me an estimate of 250-300 to get it done. This is the garage that has always done great work and gives me an honest answer on seems like everything. Im waiting to see what another garage says. But I thought there prioce was a bit low.

02-19-2007, 09:49 AM	#216
BHermis GAGT - Newbie AKA: Brian Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 29 Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT Coupe	That is pretty low. The lowest quote i got was 550

02-19-2007, 10:36 AM	#217
wushdishmeen Guest Posts: n/a	guys, when searching for a retainer clip for the injector i found one that was a package of 6 of them which was like $22, then someone on here gave me a part number that was for one retainer, then the guys at puritanparts said "yea the retainer you selected is for a 2000 grand am please advise if you want this order to continue" arent all the retainers the same?

02-19-2007, 10:40 AM	#218
gectek I hate nose hair AKA: John Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 2,051 Vehicle: 2002 Grand Am GT sc/t	what i meant was to use heat to change the shape or curve of the tube so that it will fit. check routing though. also it would have been ALOT easier to leave the fuel rail in the LIM when u take it off, i did and didnt have any injector problems, o ring problems or anything like that __________________ If you unscrew ur belly button, will ur butt fall off? Procrastinators UNITE!!!.....tomorrow

02-19-2007, 11:13 AM	#219
polo77 GAGT - Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Poland Maine Posts: 72 Vehicle: 1999 Grand am GT	Just got another estimate for 375. These seem kinda low from what everyone else has said.

02-19-2007, 11:34 AM	#220
wushdishmeen Guest Posts: n/a	yea i didnt realize you didnt have to take the rail off..but i was following the walkthrough step by step so since he did it so do i...im wishing i never did though hah oh well. so, will a 2000+ injector retainer clip work on a 99? They look slightly different but the same concept of how to keep it in, so it should right?