G8 & Camaro...that's all folks

AMRAAM4 · 04-10-2007, 06:26 AM

GM puts brake on rear-drive vehicles. And hell, I am only guessing the G8 isn't included because it is so far along in agreement with Holden, but according to the article maybe it is in trouble.

Published April 10, 2007

General Motors has put a hold on future rear-wheel-drive vehicles.

"We've pushed the pause button. It's no longer full speed ahead," Vice Chairman Bob Lutz revealed in an interview.

Two of the most important RWD cars in the works are the Chevy Camaro sports coupe due back late in 2008 and the full-size, RWD replacement for the Chevy Impala sedan for 2009. Both are expected to be huge sellers and contribute major profits to a GM till burdened with IOUs the last few years.

"It's too late to stop Camaro, but anything after that is questionable or on the bubble," said Lutz, noting that also means Camaro derivatives -- along with a big Impala sedan, "if we call it Impala."

The RWD cars, you see, would be larger and heavier than front-wheel-drive cars or are high-performance models.

So it comes down to the matter of fuel economy. Or as Lutz says: "We don't know how to get 30 percent better mileage from" RWD cars.

That 30 percent bogey arises from a proposal by the Bush administration to raise corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) standards by 4 percent a year so cars would have to average 34 m.p.g. by 2017, up from 27.5 m.p.g. today. On top of that, the Supreme Court ruled last week that the Environmental Protection Agency can regulate carbon dioxide expelled by cars, a gas that contributes to global warming. The EPA doesn't do so now.

"We'll decide on our rear-drive cars when the government decides on CO(-2) levels and CAFE regulations," Lutz said, adding that limiting CO(-2) would increase mileage, too.

"Carbon dioxide is a natural byproduct of burning gas and directly proportional to the amount of fuel burned. If we legislate CO(-2) from cars, why not legislate we take one less breath per minute since humans release capricious amounts of CO(-2) each time they exhale?" offered a testy Lutz.

Lutz also points out that higher mileage will come at a price, with the proposal to raise CAFE certain to increase costs by as much as $5,000, which will be added to a car's sticker, an amount most consumers won't be willing to pay. There are no hard numbers for how much CAFE compliance adds to the sticker now.

"Rather than buy new, people would hang onto their old cars. We could eat the $5,000, but that would put us out of business."

Besides, those who see cars as more than just an appliance are eager for the new RWD offerings.

Among other cars affected are a high-performance midsize Pontiac, a replacement for the full-size Buick Lucerne sedan, a compact smaller than the current CTS at Cadillac and possible 300-horsepower versions of the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky roadsters.

"This is very disappointing," noted Erich Merkle, director of forecasting for IRN Inc., in Grand Rapids, Mich. Most of the cars coming are necessary to GM's turnaround as showroom magnets.

"What the public buys makes CAFE work, not what the industry builds," Merkle added. "To improve mileage you change demand, not supply, by raising gas prices through taxes. But no politician is going to do that so they throw the responsibility on the back of the industry."

Lutz also objects to the talk that carmakers can easily raise mileage with a very low investment.

"Academics assure us that for $200 we can get 30 percent better mileage. If anyone can figure out how to do that for $200 -- or even for $1,000 -- I want them in my office today. Show me how to do it and we'll adopt it," he said. "If I could increase mileage by 30 percent for $200, why wouldn't I? What's my motivation not to when a gas-electric hybrid gets 27 percent better mileage and I hope someday to get the cost down to $9,000?"

Others insist that carmakers simply have to sell more small cars, such as the trio of 1-liter concepts that promise 40 m.p.g.-plus that GM unveiled at the New York Auto Show.

"Small-car mileage only counts toward CAFE if you build them here, and you can't build small cars here at a profit," Lutz said, explaining that foreign-made cars would count toward the automaker's import fleet, and its domestic fleet is where GM needs help.

Roush GT · 04-10-2007, 06:44 AM

I can get 21 mpg around town consistently in the stang I've seen 28 MPG on the highway

so FORD FTW ....

nascarnate326 · 04-10-2007, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverGT1

I can get 21 mpg around town consistently in the stang I've seen 28 MPG on the highway

so FORD FTW ....

Thats crazy good. Im in a 10 year old 4cyl and I get 25/31.
A mustang looks better every day, oh and you have double the hp.

GregFarz78 · 04-10-2007, 06:50 AM

Great so we can expect to see more v8 FWD cars in the future

better buy a nice RWD v8 now before every car gets pussified

Ajaxus · 04-10-2007, 06:56 AM

it seems almost as though they didn't see this coming..better mileage has been a big push for years..hell, it's always been a push since the end of the muscle car era. it's a shame GM doesn't want to really step to the plate and challenge themselves to put out a great RWD that gets good power and mileage..with technology advancing as it does they should be able to work something out atleast.

AMRAAM4 · 04-10-2007, 07:14 AM

A 400hp Vette gets as good or better mileage than a mustang. 300hp out of a V8 is embarassing. I love eating the Mustang GT fanboys alive in my 4700lbs SUV. But this thread isn't about the craptastic interior, and terrible build quality of the Mustang.

Farz. I think it may be the downfall of the V8 period, FWD or RWD.

Ajaxus, I think they were being a little egotistical thinking they could slide by with these performance cars in today's fuel market. But with the Congressional push coming harder, they realize they can't beat it. I tend to agree with Lutz that a high-performance car with 30+ mpg fuel mileage is damn near impossible. None of the items here in the Army can even meet extraordinary fuel minimization goals. Heavy, powerful items need a lot of fuel. it's physics (and exactly why we'll never travel light speed, or anything even close

)

Sprucegagt · 04-10-2007, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ajaxus

it seems almost as though they didn't see this coming..better mileage has been a big push for years..hell, it's always been a push since the end of the muscle car era. it's a shame GM doesn't want to really step to the plate and challenge themselves to put out a great RWD that gets good power and mileage..with technology advancing as it does they should be able to work something out atleast.

The problem is a little more difficult than people think. Cars have to meet safety ratings. In order to do that it means adding weight. You can't have a heavy vehicle have good performance numbers without having a trade off of poor fuel mileage. The internal combustion engine is the big culprit here. The design has been outdated for decades. But people just don't know what to replace it with.

Exodus · 04-10-2007, 07:39 AM

Cry me a fcking river GM.

Ajaxus · 04-10-2007, 07:42 AM

well i don't know, with electric technology in cars taking off, and putting down considerable torque might i add, you would think either an advanced electric car or gas/electric hybrid would be able to meet the standards required by the government and still put down impressive numbers for the sports car crowd.

im not THAT up to date on my electric and gas/electric vehicles, but from what i've seen of articles on here and around the web, they seem to be growing in popularity as well as performance ability.

if you can't get the same power AND mileage out of a gas engine..start expanding your horizons and trying something new and different.

Exodus · 04-10-2007, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprucegagt

The problem is a little more difficult than people think. Cars have to meet safety ratings. In order to do that it means adding weight. You can't have a heavy vehicle have good performance numbers without having a trade off of poor fuel mileage. The internal combustion engine is the big culprit here. The design has been outdated for decades. But people just don't know what to replace it with.

Werd. The gasoline engine has been tweeked since the begining of the gasoline engine. Its time to start putting more ideas together/research to design a practicle alternative fueled eingine b/4 they become way far behind

AMRAAM4 · 04-10-2007, 07:45 AM

Just posted by a member on LS1GTO:
I attended the Nashville/ International Auto Show Yesterday and was speaking with a Pontiac Factory Sales Rep. regarding why they did not have a G8 on the show floor. His response was " We are not certain that the Holden is a GO for the states yet " So, this more or less eludes to the fact that the situation is not cast in stone that the G8 will ever see stateside delivery.

Exodus · 04-10-2007, 07:58 AM

Of course its not coming over here, its too much of a good looking car to be badged w/ a GM logo.

stillriza · 04-10-2007, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ajaxus

well i don't know, with electric technology in cars taking off, and putting down considerable torque might i add, you would think either an advanced electric car or gas/electric hybrid would be able to meet the standards required by the government and still put down impressive numbers for the sports car crowd.

im not THAT up to date on my electric and gas/electric vehicles, but from what i've seen of articles on here and around the web, they seem to be growing in popularity as well as performance ability.

if you can't get the same power AND mileage out of a gas engine..start expanding your horizons and trying something new and different.

Like Lutz had mentioned earlier..its comes down to what consumers are willing to pay. I would think the vast majority of car purchases are those between the 22-30k range. I don't think a full or even mid size car with decent options can fit in that bracket if it were hybrid...let alone the craptacular prius which goes for how much...26k...this in canada ofcourse. Prices down south differ I am sure. And im sure not everyone wants to buy a prius. If I can get a hybrid G8...mustang or even cobalt..for less than 28..I defintly would. The Hybrid Accord and Camry are both above 32k here. Then you throw in stupid taxes and frieght charges...and your well above 36k for a midsize sedan...and what is it.. a honda or toyota!

Ajaxus · 04-10-2007, 08:19 AM

prices will drop eventually though, right now i think they're high more because the cars are different than anything else. as with all electronics, prices drop off quickly after awhile because the technology is in constant "improvement mode" if you will.

with the new restrictions coming out, i see hybrids for decent prices becoming a reality VERY fast..it will be bout the only way these manufacturers will be able to stay afloat.

Exodus · 04-10-2007, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ajaxus

prices will drop eventually though, right now i think they're high more because the cars are different than anything else. as with all electronics, prices drop off quickly after awhile because the technology is in constant "improvement mode" if you will.

with the new restrictions coming out, i see hybrids for decent prices becoming a reality VERY fast..it will be bout the only way these manufacturers will be able to stay afloat.

If thats true, then my outlook is leasing for future cars. I probably wont own a car for a few good years unless its a used Inexpensive beater.

Ajaxus · 04-10-2007, 08:29 AM

well i don't know how it couldn't be true with the new restrictions..i just don't see them surviving without BIG changes.

stillriza · 04-10-2007, 08:54 AM

Well isn't that the reason why what once was the big 3 automakers...are now the last 3.

Toyota..honda.. have been one to lead the way as of late with change. You always see the same thing with gm and ford. I like pontiac..but they really need to get the ball rolling. GMC has a hybrid envoy.. ford has a hybrid..what's it called. but that's it. Toyota is num 1 now and honda is 2nd...i think that's it. Both toyota and honda have a few..hybrid civic, camry,fit, prius, accord, element..and the sub brands..lexus..has hybrids. Don't think accura has any yet.

AaronGTR · 04-10-2007, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stillriza

Like Lutz had mentioned earlier..its comes down to what consumers are willing to pay. I would think the vast majority of car purchases are those between the 22-30k range. I don't think a full or even mid size car with decent options can fit in that bracket if it were hybrid...let alone the craptacular prius which goes for how much...26k...this in canada ofcourse. Prices down south differ I am sure. And im sure not everyone wants to buy a prius. If I can get a hybrid G8...mustang or even cobalt..for less than 28..I defintly would. The Hybrid Accord and Camry are both above 32k here. Then you throw in stupid taxes and frieght charges...and your well above 36k for a midsize sedan...and what is it.. a honda or toyota!

Don't forget that you would only buy one of those hybrids for the actual fuel economy. If you're talking about pollution though it actually creates more pollution to make a prius than to drive another car.

And then there's the huge cost hurdle of hybrids to get over. I just don't see them getting popular unless some of those problems can be solved.

Cormaster · 04-10-2007, 09:04 AM

I do find it odd they didn't mention the G8 in the article. Is it on hault too? If it is than they are lieing to their customers on Pontiac's site:

http://www.pontiac.com/g8/

timberwoof · 04-10-2007, 09:28 AM

Why don't they just start putting the fuel saver systems, like they have in the trucks. Its rediculous that they don't have the system in vehicle with engines less than 5.3L. My buddy's 2007 has the system and he averages about 22 MPG on the highway. And drove a round trip of about 450 miles on 3/4 tank of gas. That's pretty impressive for a full size truck.

04-10-2007, 06:26 AM	#1
AMRAAM4 Wiley 'Ol Veteran AKA: Bob (aka Hoss) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Azerbaijan Age: 45 Posts: 6,935 Vehicle: See My Signature Block	G8 & Camaro...that's all folks GM puts brake on rear-drive vehicles. And hell, I am only guessing the G8 isn't included because it is so far along in agreement with Holden, but according to the article maybe it is in trouble. Published April 10, 2007 General Motors has put a hold on future rear-wheel-drive vehicles. "We've pushed the pause button. It's no longer full speed ahead," Vice Chairman Bob Lutz revealed in an interview. Two of the most important RWD cars in the works are the Chevy Camaro sports coupe due back late in 2008 and the full-size, RWD replacement for the Chevy Impala sedan for 2009. Both are expected to be huge sellers and contribute major profits to a GM till burdened with IOUs the last few years. "It's too late to stop Camaro, but anything after that is questionable or on the bubble," said Lutz, noting that also means Camaro derivatives -- along with a big Impala sedan, "if we call it Impala." The RWD cars, you see, would be larger and heavier than front-wheel-drive cars or are high-performance models. So it comes down to the matter of fuel economy. Or as Lutz says: "We don't know how to get 30 percent better mileage from" RWD cars. That 30 percent bogey arises from a proposal by the Bush administration to raise corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) standards by 4 percent a year so cars would have to average 34 m.p.g. by 2017, up from 27.5 m.p.g. today. On top of that, the Supreme Court ruled last week that the Environmental Protection Agency can regulate carbon dioxide expelled by cars, a gas that contributes to global warming. The EPA doesn't do so now. "We'll decide on our rear-drive cars when the government decides on CO(-2) levels and CAFE regulations," Lutz said, adding that limiting CO(-2) would increase mileage, too. "Carbon dioxide is a natural byproduct of burning gas and directly proportional to the amount of fuel burned. If we legislate CO(-2) from cars, why not legislate we take one less breath per minute since humans release capricious amounts of CO(-2) each time they exhale?" offered a testy Lutz. Lutz also points out that higher mileage will come at a price, with the proposal to raise CAFE certain to increase costs by as much as $5,000, which will be added to a car's sticker, an amount most consumers won't be willing to pay. There are no hard numbers for how much CAFE compliance adds to the sticker now. "Rather than buy new, people would hang onto their old cars. We could eat the $5,000, but that would put us out of business." Besides, those who see cars as more than just an appliance are eager for the new RWD offerings. Among other cars affected are a high-performance midsize Pontiac, a replacement for the full-size Buick Lucerne sedan, a compact smaller than the current CTS at Cadillac and possible 300-horsepower versions of the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky roadsters. "This is very disappointing," noted Erich Merkle, director of forecasting for IRN Inc., in Grand Rapids, Mich. Most of the cars coming are necessary to GM's turnaround as showroom magnets. "What the public buys makes CAFE work, not what the industry builds," Merkle added. "To improve mileage you change demand, not supply, by raising gas prices through taxes. But no politician is going to do that so they throw the responsibility on the back of the industry." Lutz also objects to the talk that carmakers can easily raise mileage with a very low investment. "Academics assure us that for $200 we can get 30 percent better mileage. If anyone can figure out how to do that for $200 -- or even for $1,000 -- I want them in my office today. Show me how to do it and we'll adopt it," he said. "If I could increase mileage by 30 percent for $200, why wouldn't I? What's my motivation not to when a gas-electric hybrid gets 27 percent better mileage and I hope someday to get the cost down to $9,000?" Others insist that carmakers simply have to sell more small cars, such as the trio of 1-liter concepts that promise 40 m.p.g.-plus that GM unveiled at the New York Auto Show. "Small-car mileage only counts toward CAFE if you build them here, and you can't build small cars here at a profit," Lutz said, explaining that foreign-made cars would count toward the automaker's import fleet, and its domestic fleet is where GM needs help. __________________ 2016 GoMango Challenger SRT Hellcat 2014 Redline Pearl Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT 2018 Bruiser Grey Dodge Durango SRT TRADED-2004 Black Grand Am GT,2004 Impulse Blue GTO M6, 2012 Mineral Gray Jeep SRT8, 2010 Bright Silver Jeep SRT8 LEASE TURN-IN-2006 Summit White TrailBlazer SS AWD (Vector CAI & tune) SOLD-2000 Silvermist Grand Am GT Supercharged,1994 Daytona Blue Single Turbo RX7 (427whp/330wtq), 2006 Spice Red GTO A4, 2013 Grabber Blue Shelby GT500 Last edited by AMRAAM4; 04-10-2007 at 06:31 AM.

04-10-2007, 06:44 AM	#2
Roush GT Moderator AKA: Chris Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Dry Ridge,Ky Age: 47 Posts: 1,441 Vehicle: 2016 Hyundai Veloster	I can get 21 mpg around town consistently in the stang I've seen 28 MPG on the highway so FORD FTW .... __________________ 2007 Vista Blue Premium GT w/ Roush body kit. Roush wheels, Roush door sill plates, Roush Off-Roads, Roush Leather, Roush Toolkit Roush Stage 2 Suspension, Roush LCA's Steeda Pro Action Shocks & Struts Roush anti-wheel hop kit, Roush hood struts. Gone, but not forgotten.

04-10-2007, 06:50 AM	#4
GregFarz78 GAGT - Junkie AKA: See Above Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Philly, PA Age: 43 Posts: 4,413 Vehicle: 04 Honda S2000	Great so we can expect to see more v8 FWD cars in the future better buy a nice RWD v8 now before every car gets pussified __________________ My Pics

04-10-2007, 07:14 AM	#6
AMRAAM4 Wiley 'Ol Veteran AKA: Bob (aka Hoss) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Azerbaijan Age: 45 Posts: 6,935 Vehicle: See My Signature Block	A 400hp Vette gets as good or better mileage than a mustang. 300hp out of a V8 is embarassing. I love eating the Mustang GT fanboys alive in my 4700lbs SUV. But this thread isn't about the craptastic interior, and terrible build quality of the Mustang. Farz. I think it may be the downfall of the V8 period, FWD or RWD. Ajaxus, I think they were being a little egotistical thinking they could slide by with these performance cars in today's fuel market. But with the Congressional push coming harder, they realize they can't beat it. I tend to agree with Lutz that a high-performance car with 30+ mpg fuel mileage is damn near impossible. None of the items here in the Army can even meet extraordinary fuel minimization goals. Heavy, powerful items need a lot of fuel. it's physics (and exactly why we'll never travel light speed, or anything even close ) __________________ 2016 GoMango Challenger SRT Hellcat 2014 Redline Pearl Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT 2018 Bruiser Grey Dodge Durango SRT TRADED-2004 Black Grand Am GT,2004 Impulse Blue GTO M6, 2012 Mineral Gray Jeep SRT8, 2010 Bright Silver Jeep SRT8 LEASE TURN-IN-2006 Summit White TrailBlazer SS AWD (Vector CAI & tune) SOLD-2000 Silvermist Grand Am GT Supercharged,1994 Daytona Blue Single Turbo RX7 (427whp/330wtq), 2006 Spice Red GTO A4, 2013 Grabber Blue Shelby GT500

04-10-2007, 07:39 AM	#8
Exodus Down Rodeo AKA: Minchione Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Marlboro/LBI, NJ Age: 39 Posts: 1,734 Vehicle: 12 Altima \| 08 TL/S	Cry me a fcking river GM. __________________ Choices always were a problem for you. What you need is someone strong to guide you. Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow, What you need is someone strong to use you —Opiate, T O O L

04-10-2007, 07:45 AM	#11
AMRAAM4 Wiley 'Ol Veteran AKA: Bob (aka Hoss) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Azerbaijan Age: 45 Posts: 6,935 Vehicle: See My Signature Block	Just posted by a member on LS1GTO: I attended the Nashville/ International Auto Show Yesterday and was speaking with a Pontiac Factory Sales Rep. regarding why they did not have a G8 on the show floor. His response was " We are not certain that the Holden is a GO for the states yet " So, this more or less eludes to the fact that the situation is not cast in stone that the G8 will ever see stateside delivery. __________________ 2016 GoMango Challenger SRT Hellcat 2014 Redline Pearl Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT 2018 Bruiser Grey Dodge Durango SRT TRADED-2004 Black Grand Am GT,2004 Impulse Blue GTO M6, 2012 Mineral Gray Jeep SRT8, 2010 Bright Silver Jeep SRT8 LEASE TURN-IN-2006 Summit White TrailBlazer SS AWD (Vector CAI & tune) SOLD-2000 Silvermist Grand Am GT Supercharged,1994 Daytona Blue Single Turbo RX7 (427whp/330wtq), 2006 Spice Red GTO A4, 2013 Grabber Blue Shelby GT500

04-10-2007, 07:58 AM	#12
Exodus Down Rodeo AKA: Minchione Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Marlboro/LBI, NJ Age: 39 Posts: 1,734 Vehicle: 12 Altima \| 08 TL/S	Of course its not coming over here, its too much of a good looking car to be badged w/ a GM logo. __________________ Choices always were a problem for you. What you need is someone strong to guide you. Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow, What you need is someone strong to use you —Opiate, T O O L

04-10-2007, 08:54 AM	#17
stillriza does not compute AKA: Reds Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Ajax, Ontario Age: 38 Posts: 2,034 Vehicle: 00110110101	Well isn't that the reason why what once was the big 3 automakers...are now the last 3. Toyota..honda.. have been one to lead the way as of late with change. You always see the same thing with gm and ford. I like pontiac..but they really need to get the ball rolling. GMC has a hybrid envoy.. ford has a hybrid..what's it called. but that's it. Toyota is num 1 now and honda is 2nd...i think that's it. Both toyota and honda have a few..hybrid civic, camry,fit, prius, accord, element..and the sub brands..lexus..has hybrids. Don't think accura has any yet.

04-10-2007, 09:04 AM	#19
Cormaster 'core' - master AKA: Cory Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Indianapolis, IN Age: 41 Posts: 1,092 Vehicle: '04 Cavie, '04 Lancer	I do find it odd they didn't mention the G8 in the article. Is it on hault too? If it is than they are lieing to their customers on Pontiac's site: http://www.pontiac.com/g8/ __________________ Check out my ride! http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2566913

04-10-2007, 09:28 AM	#20
timberwoof Law Dawg AKA: Cody Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Portland Tx Posts: 1,827 Vehicle: 2004 Grand Am SE1	Why don't they just start putting the fuel saver systems, like they have in the trucks. Its rediculous that they don't have the system in vehicle with engines less than 5.3L. My buddy's 2007 has the system and he averages about 22 MPG on the highway. And drove a round trip of about 450 miles on 3/4 tank of gas. That's pretty impressive for a full size truck.

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