It's Official: Goodbye High Horsepower era...again

[Cormaster]

It is a bunch of crap. As is the public smoking ban, the seatbelt law, and the transfat ban. What ever happened to "land of the free"?

[Ajaxus]

Freedom's only go so far as your nose, when they affect others the rule changes.

In this case it is combating global warming, argue all that you want that it isn't happening, but if you read the news you would find out that Greenland is going to be completely green soon, the ice is vanishing QUICKLY.

For the smoking ban, sure you have the right to smoke, but others have the right to not breathe in your smoke. Designated smoking areas allow you to continue your right to smoke and allow non-smokers the right to not breathe it. It gives freedom to BOTH sides rather than one (which is what the absence of a smoking ban would favor).

The seatbelt law is debateable, and I'm guessing you brought that up since they just revised Indiana's law to include trucks. Although if you consider the fact that kids learn their parents habits and a parent that doesn't wear a belt passes that along to their kids who are uneducated to make the right decision...you could say that they are more or less being educated by their parents to make a bad decision that infringes on their right to live a long life. It's a stretch, but entirely pluasible.

And who exactly WANTS to eat trans fats? You can get foods that taste JUST as good if not better that are made with healthy fats.

[Sleepwalkr]

Originally Posted by Ajaxus

Freedom's only go so far as your nose, when they affect others the rule changes.

In this case it is combating global warming, argue all that you want that it isn't happening, but if you read the news you would find out that Greenland is going to be completely green soon, the ice is vanishing QUICKLY.

And who exactly WANTS to eat trans fats? You can get foods that taste JUST as good if not better that are made with healthy fats.

Yes, global warming is happening, but its not mankinds' fault...... period. This has happened before, and will cool off, then happen again. I can give you just about as many scientist names arguing against Al Gore and his theory, as you have for it. Its the earths natural cycle.

Its not about who wants to eat trans fat... its about why would they ban it? Sure its icky and not good for your body..... but so are lots of things we do to ourselves. Are we gonna ban anything & everything that might possibly make us less healthy? Its a ridiculous notion that is going waaaaaaaaay too far.

[Ajaxus]

Originally Posted by Sleepwalkr

Yes, global warming is happening, but its not mankinds' fault...... period. This has happened before, and will cool off, then happen again. I can give you just about as many scientist names arguing against Al Gore and his theory, as you have for it. Its the earths natural cycle.

I should clarify, it isn't mankinds fault that it is happening, however it is mankinds fault that it is happening at a highly accelerated rate. We've covered this before, you can search for my full arguments and resources cause I know I posted them before.

Originally Posted by Sleepwalkr

Its not about who wants to eat trans fat... its about why would they ban it? Sure its icky and not good for your body..... but so are lots of things we do to ourselves. Are we gonna ban anything & everything that might possibly make us less healthy? Its a ridiculous notion that is going waaaaaaaaay too far.

So by this argument you would also be for making all drugs legal regardless of what they are?

[Sleepwalkr]

So you're gonna compare trans fat with heroin and acid? Lets have a little common sense.

[Ajaxus]

Originally Posted by Sleepwalkr

Its not about who wants to eat trans fat... its about why would they ban it? Sure its icky and not good for your body..... but so are lots of things we do to ourselves. Are we gonna ban anything & everything that might possibly make us less healthy? Its a ridiculous notion that is going waaaaaaaaay too far.

Originally Posted by Sleepwalkr

So you're gonna compare trans fat with heroin and acid? Lets have a little common sense.

You said it, not me. I just showed how stupid your comment was with an obvious example.

[GRZHOPR]

Just to play devil's advocate here:

GM, Ford, and Chrysler are getting CREAMED in market share to companies like Honda and Toyota because the Honda and Toyota vehicles are more cost efficient to operate. By not improving the gas mileage, our homegrown companies (the now former big 3) have literally shot themselves in the foot already because they did not follow the market shift to compete against these niche products that are now the mainstream. In this process, manufacturing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania, and New York have excruciating unemployment rates because of the layoffs from the big three. Also with that loss of market share, all of the supporting manufacturing companies like Delphi are also closing their doors. Meanwhile, Honda is springing up in Ohio, and Toyota is building state of the art facilities in Tennessee and Texas. Anyone familiar with macro-economic theory? Since they are able to produce goods that have demand to Michigan, Pennsylvania and New York residents, the unemployment rates in Texas, TN, and OH are much more palatable. The old "industrial age" states are crumbling in economic depression. Had the big 3 improved their fuel economy over the last 15-20 years like the other auto-manufacturers, none of this would even be an issue.

Carl Levin, a Michigan democrat, isn't trying to sacrifice the last throws of employment in Michigan... he's trying to force them to strive to be competitive in the future with Honda and Toyota, because he foresees in the long-run that this is where they are headed and he is trying to be prepared for his states residents.

[Ajaxus]

that's not so much devils advocate as it is common sense, and spot on as well. whats funny is that its quite true, and those arguing about wanting a gas guzzling car apparently don't care that much about the survival of the companies that would produce said gas guzzler...

[lone_wolf025]

Frankly I think the whole damned energy bill should be tossed. Yes its a good idea to explore the new energies and blah blah blah lets face facts.

By using less oil it becomes more expensive. The more money it costs for oil the more it'll cost for petrol based fertilizers, the more it'll cost to grow corn, the more it'll cost to make the ethanol. So basically by doing this E85 BS (for emissions or not) we're looking at even more money going into cars just to run them. It's gonna make gas prices now look like the $.99 days of the early 90's.

I think they should concentrate more on the development of an energy efficient hydrogen production plan and the infrastructure to support the hydrogen powered cars. Until we can do that everything else is pipe dreams. Instead, the government and oil companies will screw us out of every last dollar we own all in the name of "Global Warming"...

Personally I don't think man is to blame for any aspect of the global warming debate merely on the premise that there is too much hype FOR it for me to follow the media like a dog on a leash like the general public. I respectfully disagree in principal to those who have read the research and do believe we are contributing to it. As such that is my opinion on the matter of Global Warming. Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for the reduction of pollutants from the operation AND production of cars...lets just do it without messing with oil just yet.

[GRZHOPR]

Originally Posted by lone_wolf025

By using less oil it becomes more expensive.

I have to disagree on this point. Do some light reading on "Peak Oil Bell Curve"
Here's the first google link I found: http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/
Recall that farm equipment runs on oil.

I think they should concentrate more on the development of an energy efficient hydrogen production plan and the infrastructure to support the hydrogen powered cars.

This is where everyone is heading. BP (owned by the Venezuelan government) is actually one of the forerunners on this action item.

[Ajaxus]

Hydrogen being a straight up alternative to oil is good, but if you are going towards it from the standpoint of it being less pollutant, forget about it. It's been shown that the process of obtaining hydrogen for use in cars is more pollutant than manufacturing AND burning gasoline.

IIRC Car and Driver had a wonderful article on this exact point.

So basically, yes it will be done, but it won't be popular for those that are going after it for eco-friendly reasons.

Electric cars may be the future, but we have to improve our fuel cell technologies first.

[Mike Jung]

Originally Posted by GRZHOPR

...BP (owned by the Venezuelan government) is actually one of the forerunners on this action item.

BP formerly known as British Petroleum.

[GRZHOPR]

I used to have an investor link that had all the info on it... let me doing some checking around.


**Edit, found it, I was mistaken, Citgo ("An American Icon") is owned by Venezuela. http://www.citgo.com/AboutCITGO.jsp

Citgo has been pushing for the E85.


Here's BP's stance: http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarti...tentId=2006538

[Mike Jung]

Originally Posted by GRZHOPR

...Citgo ("An American Icon") is owned by Venezuela. http://www.citgo.com/AboutCITGO.jsp...

Yup, check out: Citgo = bad??

[crazypontiac03]

Originally Posted by GRZHOPR

Just to play devil's advocate here:

GM, Ford, and Chrysler are getting CREAMED in market share to companies like Honda and Toyota because the Honda and Toyota vehicles are more cost efficient to operate. By not improving the gas mileage, our homegrown companies (the now former big 3) have literally shot themselves in the foot already because they did not follow the market shift to compete against these niche products that are now the mainstream. In this process, manufacturing states like Michigan, Pennsylvania, and New York have excruciating unemployment rates because of the layoffs from the big three. Also with that loss of market share, all of the supporting manufacturing companies like Delphi are also closing their doors. Meanwhile, Honda is springing up in Ohio, and Toyota is building state of the art facilities in Tennessee and Texas. Anyone familiar with macro-economic theory? Since they are able to produce goods that have demand to Michigan, Pennsylvania and New York residents, the unemployment rates in Texas, TN, and OH are much more palatable. The old "industrial age" states are crumbling in economic depression. Had the big 3 improved their fuel economy over the last 15-20 years like the other auto-manufacturers, none of this would even be an issue.

Carl Levin, a Michigan democrat, isn't trying to sacrifice the last throws of employment in Michigan... he's trying to force them to strive to be competitive in the future with Honda and Toyota, because he foresees in the long-run that this is where they are headed and he is trying to be prepared for his states residents.

I Don't believe MPG is the cause of the Big 3 Crumbling. I believe its a combination of the UAW and MPG and Cost to produce a vehicle.

Look how much there retirement program is in the hole along with there health care program which is paying 80-100%. How many other global company's cover 100% of your health care?

Another thing, when you buy a new Car/Truck you are still paying towards someone's retirement. No biggy except for the fact they have already been retired for X amount of year's. There basically back logged. They have all there X-Employee's to pay for yet the money has stopped rolling in unlike back in the early 90's.

Where has Toyota and Honda which are Non-Union which helps as far as health care,retirement program work, Not only are they still selling at a higher demand, but the fact they haven't been in these country for 100's of year's. Which drops what they are paying into a retirement program.

[RedGrandTour]

I think the rich folks are getting mad that some poor kid in Neon SRT can walk a BMW and other expensive high end cars.

[GRZHOPR]

Originally Posted by crazypontiac03

I Don't believe MPG is the cause of the Big 3 Crumbling. I believe its a combination of the UAW and MPG and Cost to produce a vehicle.

Look how much there retirement program is in the hole along with there health care program which is paying 80-100%. How many other global company's cover 100% of your health care?

Another thing, when you buy a new Car/Truck you are still paying towards someone's retirement. No biggy except for the fact they have already been retired for X amount of year's. There basically back logged. They have all there X-Employee's to pay for yet the money has stopped rolling in unlike back in the early 90's.

Where has Toyota and Honda which are Non-Union which helps as far as health care,retirement program work, Not only are they still selling at a higher demand, but the fact they haven't been in these country for 100's of year's. Which drops what they are paying into a retirement program.

I totally agree. However, Carl Levin isn't about to go tell GM, Ford, and Chrysler to stop unions, there would be rioting in the streets. Unions and NAFTA are the two biggest reasons industrial companies are closing their doors. This is the same reason Pennsylvania lost the steel industry to Mexico and China. New York is right there with them; they just closed their Remington firearms plant and moved it to Mexico last month. That Remington facility employed thousands who had been with the company 30+ years. Now why would they wait until now to close their doors you may ask? Because thousands of 30+ year employees like to retire. They were 2 weeks shy of the minimum worker deadline to receive retirement from when that facility opened it's doors. They basically told these people for years that they would get retirement, then closed their doors 2 weeks early so they wouldn't have to pay.

[GRZHOPR]

***Mental note: Do not buy any Remington guns made after 2007. They will be made by inexperienced Mexicans at the expense of American families.

[crazypontiac03]

Originally Posted by GRZHOPR

***Mental note: Do not buy any Remington guns made after 2007. They will be made by inexperienced Mexicans at the expense of American families.

As so many other industries.. Mexico and China are the New America, only without any actual Skill and for 4 Bucks a day. Yet we pay more for a crappier product.

I will say it one more time, wether people like it or not. Union's are the Rise and Fall of America. Just look at where the Union's where in the 70's,80's, Till Now.

Its B.S., Then people ask why the poverty rate keeps rising. Housing is beging to Die and Forclosure's are suppose to be in the 500,000 range for 07?!?

Tell me where not screwed?

[mr_eh]

is my 442hp 20w-50 car going anywhere? no