e85

[peppermill]

Originally Posted by SpyhunteR

I wish I can scan your car and show you through logs to see what you're doing.

So do I. I would love to know what's going on in there! If you know anyone in Eastern Iowa that could do that, by all means, pass their name along to me! I'm incredibly curious, and I'll gladly post the info for all to see. Understand that I'm not right nor wrong for pouring in E85. I'm on a path to discovery. It's all very Zen. And I'll share my findings, good bad, or ugly. So sit back and benefit from the trial and error on my car, knowing that I'm at full inner peace with doing what I'm doing.

Originally Posted by SpyhunteR

which isn't pretty as far as my experience sees quite plainly.

A wise individual spent quite a bit of time on the phone with me and explained to me today why so many people take so much offense to me pouring in the E85. I understand the viewpoint and the opposition to what I'm doing much better now.

The Grand Am in question is a really nice car. I like it, and my wife likes it. We baby it, and give it good tires, and decent after market brakes, and it gets synthetic oil and regular used oil analysis. It got its plugs and wires changed at 100K miles "Just because it was time" (and I heard a tick in the stereo ;-) It gets taken care of. It's got the full rubberized after market undercoating, yet it stays in the garage during most of the winter because if there's snow on the ground, we need our 4X4s to get up our driveway. (Once I managed to get up it in the Grand AM by doing it in reverse.. that was a trip!) It gets babied when it's driven. The engine (at least the oil pan casting) shares a birth day with my wife. And it's not my only car. I'm not purposely trying to ruin it. And if I should happen to blow a motor (I won't) I'm prepared to deal with it.

Know that while I like the car, I place a higher value on truth. And I will eventually find what I'm looking for. I like it, but I don't place it on a pedestal. It's not one of my kids, it's just a car.

So, in closing, if you've run E85, or any blends of it on your Grand Am, then please share your findings. If not, then I don't want to hear your negative comments and conjecture.

[peppermill]

Originally Posted by Upshift

What's probably gonna end up happening is some nasty lean condition detonation on a hot summer day.

That's fine. You keep thinking "probably" and I'll go find out for sure. You're smart enough to know that in this particular engine the increased octane won't counter the lean condition? Neither am I.

[alerored04]

There is no proving this to you until you wreck ****. Just like the guy who wouldn't run a maf on his supercharger. Kept saying it will work it will work, then one day... PIECE OF **** BLEW UP!!!! The only way you are gonna learn is when you squeak a piston, i can't wait til you do cause this whole community is gonna laugh and say i told you so.

[PhantomLover007]

Originally Posted by alerored04

There is no proving this to you until you wreck ****. Just like the guy who wouldn't run a maf on his supercharger. Kept saying it will work it will work, then one day... PIECE OF **** BLEW UP!!!! The only way you are gonna learn is when you squeak a piston, i can't wait til you do cause this whole community is gonna laugh and say i told you so.

He'll move to GAOC when that happens. Be too embarrassed.

[cardude007617]

you mean the land of-
Will a 3800 or GTP supercharger fit in my grand am?

[SpyhunteR]

Originally Posted by peppermill

So do I. I would love to know what's going on in there! If you know anyone in Eastern Iowa that could do that, by all means, pass their name along to me! I'm incredibly curious, and I'll gladly post the info for all to see. Understand that I'm not right nor wrong for pouring in E85. I'm on a path to discovery. It's all very Zen. And I'll share my findings, good bad, or ugly. So sit back and benefit from the trial and error on my car, knowing that I'm at full inner peace with doing what I'm doing.




A wise individual spent quite a bit of time on the phone with me and explained to me today why so many people take so much offense to me pouring in the E85. I understand the viewpoint and the opposition to what I'm doing much better now.

The Grand Am in question is a really nice car. I like it, and my wife likes it. We baby it, and give it good tires, and decent after market brakes, and it gets synthetic oil and regular used oil analysis. It got its plugs and wires changed at 100K miles "Just because it was time" (and I heard a tick in the stereo ;-) It gets taken care of. It's got the full rubberized after market undercoating, yet it stays in the garage during most of the winter because if there's snow on the ground, we need our 4X4s to get up our driveway. (Once I managed to get up it in the Grand AM by doing it in reverse.. that was a trip!) It gets babied when it's driven. The engine (at least the oil pan casting) shares a birth day with my wife. And it's not my only car. I'm not purposely trying to ruin it. And if I should happen to blow a motor (I won't) I'm prepared to deal with it.

Know that while I like the car, I place a higher value on truth. And I will eventually find what I'm looking for. I like it, but I don't place it on a pedestal. It's not one of my kids, it's just a car.

So, in closing, if you've run E85, or any blends of it on your Grand Am, then please share your findings. If not, then I don't want to hear your negative comments and conjecture.

There is no zen about it. You're running improper fuel in your vehicle. Your PCM isn't calibrated to run it, your car is supposed to be running much richer to compensate for the E85 not having much ooomph. If you'd like to try something get an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and increase the line pressure a bit.

You're not on a zen journey you just started using E85 in your car.

There will constantly be negative comments in this post towards you because of your mentality towards this.

[Upshift]

Originally Posted by peppermill

That's fine. You keep thinking "probably" and I'll go find out for sure. You're smart enough to know that in this particular engine the increased octane won't counter the lean condition? Neither am I.

even if the octane ratingis technically higher for E85, the injectors are way too small and the car isn't tuned to deliver the proper Air Fuel ratio. So, even with the extra octane rating, you're not getting enough fuel. The potential for disaster is high enough that even I wouldn't risk it.

Also note the car's computer isn't programmed to provide fuel maps for octane ratings lower then 87 and higher then 94. And we all know E85 has a higher octane rating. Sowhatever timing your computer is throwing out, it's the wrong one for the job.

And yeah im also smart enough to notice from experience and other people's mistakes that this particular engine does NOT enjoy lean conditions.

Look, i dont know about the others, but my intention isnt to insult your credibility, yourself and your idea. Im throwing in a few pointers to help you avoid having to do any expensive repairs. If you wanted to try this to find out what it does. then you would have done one tanks worth and brought it to a mechanic to ask him to do a scan and give you an educated opinion based on the results. Doing that is smart, driving with E85 untill something bad happens isn't.

There's the smart way of discovering something and their's the dumb way. You chose.

[Upshift]

Originally Posted by SpyhunteR

There is no zen about it. You're running improper fuel in your vehicle. Your PCM isn't calibrated to run it, your car is supposed to be running much richer to compensate for the E85 not having much ooomph. If you'd like to try something get an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and increase the line pressure a bit.

You're not on a zen journey you just started using E85 in your car.

There will constantly be negative comments in this post towards you because of your mentality towards this.

LOL you pretty much read my mind and simplified it.

[cardude007617]

i cant beleive this thread is still going... he obviously doesnt care THAT much about his car that he'd put the WRONG fuel in it. theres nothing any of us can say, experts in the auto field or even the casual modder that will stop him from ruining his engine.
i generally do not wish misfortune onto people but in this case i'd love to see it. sorry bud, but you've lost the battle here and you will soon be forking money into an engine rebuild.


OT though- so would running premium make your fuel pump have to pump more fuel into your engine to do having less energy in the gas?

[Upshift]

Originally Posted by cardude007617

i cant beleive this thread is still going... he obviously doesnt care THAT much about his car that he'd put the WRONG fuel in it. theres nothing any of us can say, experts in the auto field or even the casual modder that will stop him from ruining his engine.
i generally do not wish misfortune onto people but in this case i'd love to see it. sorry bud, but you've lost the battle here and you will soon be forking money into an engine rebuild.


OT though- so would running premium make your fuel pump have to pump more fuel into your engine to do having less energy in the gas?

Dont know. I doubt it, i've never seen a difference in fuel economy from 87 to 94 octane fuel. All it changes, as far as i know, is the ignition timing table the car uses.

[cardude007617]

so our PCMs tuned or not, can tell that we're running higher octane fuel and will advance timing to get more power right? or no.....i've heard unless your car is specifically tuned for a certain octane of fuel, it wont do **** in your engine performance wise or am i wrong

[Upshift]

actually, higher octane fuel doesn't increase performance as is the myth.

although most non V8 and non forced-induction(turbo and supercharger) engines require only 87, these same engines are also made to be able to run up to 94 octane, that's a given.(although V8s in general and forced induction engines require 94 period). Our engines require 87, but you can put 94 if you want, your computer will detect the new octane level and be able to manage it. Because our cars, and pretty much every other 87 octane based engines have different sets of ignition timing tables for any range of fuel between 87 and 94 octane.

but higher octane doesn't increase performance at all. That's not the point of octane. The increased octane is to prevent detonation since higher octane levels can operate at higher heat thresholds without prematurely igniting. On new 4 and 6 cylinder engines, combustion chamber temperatures aren't usually a problem and 87 octane is more then good enough when the engine is new. Most V8s and turbo/supercharged applications see a lot more heat which can prematurely ignite the fuel. so they require 94 octane fuel that will be more resistant to heat. This is for the sake of survivability, not performance.



Some people put 94 octane because some companies add extra cleaning agents in it. Or, because they have older engines. Higher octane fuel is good for an old engine because those can have carbon deposits on the combustion chamber walls that can get pretty hot and can eventually cause premature ignition(detonation). So running higher octane fuel is a safeguard.


Some people believe higher octane fuel gives more power then regular. In reality it has less. A tradeoff to higher heat resistance is lower energy potential. Hense why your engine PCM will alter the ignition timing when it detects premium fuel to get the most out of it.

If you wanna try it for yourself, go ahaid. You'll notice absolutely no difference.

but yeah you're right. If your car cannot detect that octane level. your PCM wont be able to adjust correctly and it will just hurt performance more then anything. For example, race fuel in a stock car. So yeah keep in mind, Our cars are made for octane levels of 87 through 94. no less, no more. Unless you tune for it.

[SpyhunteR]

Originally Posted by cardude007617

so our PCMs tuned or not, can tell that we're running higher octane fuel and will advance timing to get more power right? or no.....i've heard unless your car is specifically tuned for a certain octane of fuel, it wont do **** in your engine performance wise or am i wrong

it doesn't tell at all.

lower octane gas burns at a lower temperature. high octane burns/ignites at a hotter temp.

High compression/forced induced setups tend to like high octane because the KABOOM in each cylinder is more controlled. Less prone to premature kabooms.

On the 2.4L PCM there is a high octane and low octane timing map. Basically if the car isn't knockin' it's goin' high octane map, if it detects a lil bit of knockin' and certain a/fs it goes lower octane.

[cardude007617]

this thread is over anyways, and i have one more question-

is it just me or does anyone ever notice that their cars seem to perform better in like warmer temperatures, not HOT and not COLD? meaning the first 50s and 60s you get, your car seems to run amazing verses the fridgid temps your used to.

[lvemy3100]

so much to say in this thread i dont think i am gonna try to do it tonight... maybe i might feel more up to it in the morning...

just for the record... running e85 can and will be done... just takes some work.. that much is already known but how much work is yet to be determined.. I plan to try to figure this out but from the looks of things it might not be until early june at the soonest..

[Upshift]

Originally Posted by cardude007617

this thread is over anyways, and i have one more question-

is it just me or does anyone ever notice that their cars seem to perform better in like warmer temperatures, not HOT and not COLD? meaning the first 50s and 60s you get, your car seems to run amazing verses the fridgid temps your used to.

my guess is

in that middle spot temperatures its cool enough to give a tiny boost to your engine without being too cold for your tires.

Since engines like cool weather while tires like the hot stuff. And pleasing both is always considered the ideal situation. But since you cant get hot pavement with cold weather, a balanced compromised in both tends to give off the best "real world" results.

But that's just a guess

[cardude007617]

so why dont cars feel amazing when its freaking cold outside?

[Upshift]

Originally Posted by cardude007617

so why dont cars feel amazing when its freaking cold outside?

Oh they do trust me.

drive it in a gold night and you will notice. The engine is much livelier. but your street tires wont appreciate the extra engine grunt mixed with the cold streets.

Hell, this winter, on days where the pavement was dry but extra cold and the air was really cold. with barely used winter tires(good ones too), i had to be surgically precise with the throttle or else id get instant wheelspin. Like the slightest touch of the pedal would make the tires break loose .


Here's another extreme example in the same conditions(Kids don't try this at home):

I was on a highway on-ramp, driving at 40 km/h(give or take maybe 22 mph) and then decided to floor it. well what happened is this. The engine revved as the transmition downshifted to first gear, and as soon as it locked the gear in i felt the car stop accelerating and saw the tachometer and speedometer needles skyrocket in one burst. I basically did a burnout on the move that was strong enough to make my wheels turn at 80 km/h(give or take 50 mph).

Bad driving habit i know. I haven't tried that one again :P


But there you have it. Cold weather makes your engine stronger and your tires stupid.

[cardude007617]

haha, i dont know, it seems to make my car feel a little sluggish, but the point about the tires is good.

[peppermill]

Originally Posted by cardude007617

i cant beleive this thread is still going... he obviously doesnt care THAT much about his car that he'd put the WRONG fuel in it. theres nothing any of us can say, experts in the auto field or even the casual modder that will stop him from ruining his engine.
i generally do not wish misfortune onto people but in this case i'd love to see it. sorry bud, but you've lost the battle here and you will soon be forking money into an engine rebuild.


OT though- so would running premium make your fuel pump have to pump more fuel into your engine to do having less energy in the gas?

Originally Posted by cardude007617

i cant beleive this thread is still going... he obviously doesnt care THAT much about his car that he'd put the WRONG fuel in it. theres nothing any of us can say, experts in the auto field or even the casual modder that will stop him from ruining his engine.
i generally do not wish misfortune onto people but in this case i'd love to see it. sorry bud, but you've lost the battle here and you will soon be forking money into an engine rebuild.


OT though- so would running premium make your fuel pump have to pump more fuel into your engine to do having less energy in the gas?

My goal isn't to run E85 in a stock setup forever until I destroy a nice car. I find it incredibly odd that everyone's first take on the situation is that I want to do that. It will get tuned for it. But that's a bit down the road. For now, my goal is to collect data, and have more than just one or two tanks of E85 through it before I go any further. Most of what I've run through it is various blends, from E20 to E70 at this point. I'm only a half dozen full tanks of fuel that I know is beyond E70. At WOT on E75, I can FEEL that the power enrichment just isn't there above 5K. So I don't do that! I *KNOW* the PCM isn't power enriching, and I very well could be running out of injector. At E50, it's questionable. So I'm going to figure that out by watching the injector pulse width. At E40, the car is awesome. I'm going to gather the info I need AND THEN spend a day with a tuner. But before I do that, I'm doing the endurance test.

Eventually, it'll get an E85 tune. It will happen. Assuming it can happen. For now, I'll just keep gathering data, posting what I can, and attempting to share my findings because there's no way I can spend the time to try and explain myself, my situation, and my motives to the MINORITY of loud mouthed jerks that are so sure they're so much smarter than I.

For every jerk that leaves a negative comment, there is an open minded clued in person that reads it and thinks "That's interesting, I want to see how that ends."

So that's why I keep posting. For those people that read it, and want to know, but don't want to say something for fear of the backlash they might get.

E85 is like race gas. But instead of wrecking your oxygen sensor, and costing $6.50 a gallon it cleans your oxygen sensor and costs less than normal gas. Oh, and like race gas you need a tune for more timing (and maybe more injector in the case of E85) to take full advantage of it. But not if you just want to run it in a normal vehicle, like normal gas, assuming you're man enough to keep your foot off the floor.